I am not what you would call a senior member on this site. But I spend hours a day slaving away in this obsession I call the Fiero. I don't think that I would be so into my car or even still own a Fiero if it weren't for this forum. There are many things I have learned here that makes me just want to wrench on my car 24 hours a day. If this forum goes down it will be missed, But we will all understand if it has to be shut down. I also feel that a monthly fee wouldn't be a problem for any of us. There will always be other forums but none will ever have the type of community offered here. No matter what happens thanks for all the hard work you do Cliff.
Edit: I may own my first and last page 3
[This message has been edited by MDFierolvr (edited 03-13-2005).]
well, this is a sad day for the whole fiero community. i never thought this day would come, but alass all good things must surley come to an end. i just hope that this is not the end of this forum, but the dawning of a new era of PFF.
cliff, PLEASE dont do this! i have relied on the information on this site sence 2002 and i am starting a new project . i dont think it will ever be finished if PFF goes the way of the dinosaurs.
I agree, don't close this down, let this be a new era of PFF! This is some serious crap, affecting THOUSANDS of members of PFF and the worse...........Cliff's family......this isn't right. I'm going to hold a auction to raise money for PFF like I noted in this thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/031405.html I posted that thread before I read this, maybe I had a feeling to raise money for PFF?? All I know is tommorow i'm getting the item i'm going to sell ready, and all proceeds go to Cliff!!! So look out for it in general sometime tommorow.
I will fricking flip out if this place goes down...
The friends... The laughs... The dreaming I get from here... And most important......a WORLD covering tidal wave of information on Fieros & more!
Like I said Cliff, i'm holding a auction tommorow and posting about it in general to help raise funds, not to just help pff, but to help your family that was affected by some immature person(s), I will also check out how much money I have in my paypal account to throw it your way to help your family....wow....i'm just sad.....
It would surely be a sad day if PFF were to shut down to be gone for ever more. It seems that the good guys always loose. How sad indeed.
As you can see I'm not an active member but heavily rely on PFF to support my passion, the Fiero. I can't think of a single day where I have not accessed the site for information, help on a current project or just to see what the rest of the Fiero brotherhood is up to.
I just had a few hours of sleep, so now I can tell you a bit more what's going on...
I'm sorry to hear that Cliff. I do wish very much to see this forum running strong in future years, but I could not ask you to do that over spending time with your family. I hope you will make the most beneficial decisions.
In any case, I'm donating towards whatever it will take to get a more secure PFF. And if not, then to help out with the expense that this will cause.
Originally posted by FastIndyFiero: I'm sorry to hear that Cliff. I do wish very much to see this forum running strong in future years, but I could not ask you to do that over spending time with your family. I hope you will make the most beneficial decisions. In any case, I'm donating towards whatever it will take to get a more secure PFF. And if not, then to help out with the expense that this will cause.Nate Engel
Ditto. Paypal on it's way. I like ideas from the replies above about having a monthly few to keep membership here. I can't imagine owning a Fiero and not having PFF It's like PB & J. Whatever happens here folks please don't succumb to the loser site while PFF is down. I would sell my Fiero before I'd having anything to do with that trash over there.
[This message has been edited by Gokart (edited 03-13-2005).]
I've never directed a post to you personally...I'm truly sorry this has happened and that it has come to this type of decision for you. This forum is incredible and full of knowledge. Please consider the idea of having a separate company do the hosting for this. There have been many people here mention that they would be willing to pay a monthly fee to keep this going.
If shutting down is something that you must do, then I'm sure we will all be saddened yet respectful of your decision.
There are smaller forums out there for the Fiero folks, hell, I am an administrator for one of them, but this one contains so much information and so many people...I've made some pretty good friends and contacts here. Most of what I have learned about our little car, I've learned from folks here. I've yet to have any problems with anyone.
If moving this forum to a paid server would help, by all means, do it. It would be worth it to all of us to pay that fee.
edited to delete paypal info request...found it.
[This message has been edited by FieroOilAnalyst (edited 03-13-2005).]
Cliff I don’t know if anyone else has offered but I am a Network Engineer. If you want I would like to talk with you about you Network Vulnerability and see if the is anything we have to do there as well. You can PM me or email me whichever you choose. There are ways we can figure out who did this. There are so many of us here on PFF that there has to be more IT people out there specializing in other areas as well that can lend a hand. The key will be to screen them to make sure you are getting the people who mean you no harm…..I have been active here for less than 2 years but this group of individuals and your creation has done what I believe no other group will possibly be able to do. I’d like more info on what you think was your breach. I am an MCSA as well but I do know a fair amount about Linux. I would like to put a call out to the members in the general forum for IT guys so we can get a list of qualified people you can choose from. Its really sad to hear that this has occurred. Lets get some qualified people together and brainstorm before you take the beasts down. LMK
This is a sad day in the Fiero community. Let's all hope the bad guys don't win this time. Thanks to Cliff for hosting such a wonderful site for so long. We are one big family. Good Luck, hope to see everyone still here tomorrow. Thanks Gary
Cliff, After reading your 'Update 7:45am' in the first post, I got to thinking. Ya know, If running this place is getting between you and your family, It may be time to let it go or turn it over to someone you trust to carry on the fine tradition you have created.
I'm sure It would break your's and a lot of peoples heart, but you only get to watch your Daughter grow up once! After all, as important & helpfull as this place is, in the large scheme of things, it's all just one's & zero's.
I say you do what's best for you and your family. To alot of people, you are Pennocks Fiero Forum. But to the people that mean the most, you are a Father, a Husband, a Son, and always, a Friend. Good Luck.
Great, glad to hear that you are not here too often, if Cliff decides to keep the forum up, I hope that you keep that trend going...
Cliff, I am not alone when I say that if you decide to devote your time elsewhere, it is understandable. After all is said and done, your family has to remain your number one priority. After saying that I will have to say that this forum has made the Fiero the great hobby that it has become. I am not alone when I say that my car has become something that I could have never imagined had it not been form this forum. From the people that you meet with the same passion, to the excellent technical advice, to the great stuff that can be found in the mall (which BTW beats the heck out of buying from ebay) to just BSing in OT... This place is GREAT. There are many others that will agree.
No matter what you decide to do, it is understandable...
Anyone interested in starting up a PFF anon group? I think there might be others suffering from withdrawal if this forum goes down. I typically read the forum for at least an hour as I wind down after work each day, and many times I will surf the site on my PDA at lunchtime.
I'll try to keep this short and simple. If this forum is seriously taking up so much of your time that it is stopping you from doing things that you want to do, namely spending more time with your daughter, close this place. It seems as though this place has gone from becoming a hobby to becoming a burden. Sure I'd hate to see the forum go, but you have done enough already and you don't owe anything to any of us.
I really hope when you take this server down, you do spend some time thinking about whether to bring this place back or not. Hopefully you'll realize that your daughter is only young once and you should be spending time with her instead of reading e-mails and PM's complaining about this and that on this board.
i love this place don't let some a-holes kill it . i think it will be a bigger victory if you show then it doesn't matter we will move forward . i going to send paypal . ANYONE THAT LOVE THIS PLACE OR HAS HAD THEM HELP YOU PLEASE HELP CLIFF . WE NEED TO SAVE THIS PLACE WITHOUT A DOUBT !!!!
Your family does come first, the Fiero is "just a car" afterall. But I could scarcely imagine owning mine without the forum. There is no substitute, no better source of info. If the forum has to go, I will miss it greatly. I never would have bought a Fiero if it wasn't for the forum.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Thank you. Thank you for everything. I don't know if you can even imagine the profound effect the work you put into the forum has on thousands of people's lives. It's disappearance would make owning a Fiero a lot harder, but you have to do what you have to do. I just really hope it doesn't have to come to that. If there's anything we can do, let us know.
honestly, in your situation i would shut it down and just start a proboard for free, its not as nice as this board but it would get the job done. Then you could just redirect firo.nl and fieroforum.com to the free board. They pay to keep it free by advertising.
That would be really sad if this place shut down, I have been reading it for over a year, way before I became a member... inspired me to get a 3.8sc fiero, and its one of the coolest car sites on the internet.
I was checking out that pennockssucks forum and clicked on a link to this forum and it said that it had logged my ip and blah blah =/
I posted this in another thread, but will put it here also.....
OK...I know that this is a far fetched idea, and it would take practically EVERY member to donate financially..... But what would a new server cost? I REALIZE that the old one is ok hardware wise, but with a new one, it could be set up before hand, then the only thing needed would be to transfer the data across. Should be a minimum of down time as compared to having to down the first server completely for several days. If, out of all the members on here, we could get 100 people to donate $50 each, that should be a pretty decent bite out of the cost. Cliff would then have the old Server to use as a backup, always keeping a clean install ready. Just an idea. And believe me, before you go saying anything, $50 for me is no easy amount to give up. But I will gladly do so. Of course, we would also need Cliffs input on this. And to be very honest....If, out of the several thousand members on here, we could not come up with the money, then maybe we don't deserve to have PFF in the first place.
JKFIERO Good idea. If this is something Cliff is interested in, maybe someone should start a new thread in General Chat since there is alot more traffic there. I had already sent Cliff $100 for him to have whether he keeps the forum up or not.
I am going to buy (build) a new server on monday, since that is the only way to make sure there's a minimum downtime. Up until recently, I had an exact copy of the server at home which I could use as a backup in case something like this happened. The problem is that that machine crashed a few months ago. So there couldn't be a worse timing for this. I don't have any problems with having to pay for the new server myself, I was about to do this anyway in the coming months. I hope I can get the new server up and running in a short time...
I looked at it this way. I spent almost $100 on the Helm manual for my '88. It has a lot of information in it, and I felt it was worth the cost. I have downloaded hundreds upon hundreds of threads from the forum, of a technical nature, Getting information for free always seems like the best deal in the world, but when something like this happens, you realize that it really isn't free.
I already sent in $50 via the PayPal, and as promised, will send more if Cliff can find a way to keep it going without disrupting his life or finances.
To me, its well worth the investment. $50 right now is not so much, compared to what I have gotten in terms of information. I have tried to contribute what little I can in terms of information to the technical forum, but that does not pay for server upgrades or other IT essentials. I see others, that are in the IT business have already offered their assistance, and Cliff put out a call to those who think they can help via his personal email address.
I know everyone here who loves, and relies on this forum, would gladly give up time and know-how, if not money to help it stay alive.
Wow just wow. I made so many friends on here, it would be hard for me to leave it. But Cliff, having a family and taking care of them comes first and foremost. Thank you so much for keeping this place together for such a long time, I hope it lasts longer. My best of luck goes with you, if I knew anything about computers I'd try to help, but being the illiterate I am, I can't do any more than send you my sorry. Thanks Cliff for all that you are willing to do for all of us.
I do not know what to say. I have sent in a donation. Cliff I also sent you an e-mail.
This place has been an awesome resource for me over the last 2 years, as well as a fun place to chat with other Fiero owners. I will be bummed out if it goes away, but having a family myself, I would completely understand if it does.
I'm sorry to hear about the hack, loss of money, time, and most importantly, time you spend with your family.
I hope you decide to keep PFF going. I also hope you will start to give serious thought about accepting some assistance in running the forum to cut down on the amount of time it takes away from your personal life too. I am aware that you have been against having any moderators in the past because you have preferred to keep control of the forum yourself. The rating system has proven to be effective in weeding out people who the majority did not want. However, you are still the one who has to sort through the massive amounts of information posted on a daily basis on the forum and take care of all the little problems that arise.
A lot of these things could be handled by some of the forums more responsible and respected members. On some forum, having moderators can make a hierarchy system. However, it doesn't have to be that way, and if moderators overstep their bounds you can always remove them or appoint new ones. There are many forums that have been very successful with moderators controlling the forum. They just have to make sure everyone plays by the rules, and when they don't the moderators must take appropriate action. Not just deleting posts, closing threads, or whatever, but also diffusing the situation as much as possible to prevent lingering effects.
So if you decide to allow PFF to continue, I hope you will put some serious thought into allowing some of the other members here give you a hand at keeping things going in the forums. At least give it a try as a trial and see how it goes. In the long run, you may find it helpful to your enjoyment of the forum, and allow you to spend more time with your family while allowing PFF to soldier on for the community.
To the rest of the forum: If PFF shuts down, there is no reason that some other forum cannot be created or expanded to replace it. In fact, maybe someone could get the software from Cliff (buy it?) and run it on different servers. Short of that, they could also start a new forum (vbulletin?), and maybe offer the PFF information as archives only.
It is pretty clear everyone would understand if it had to go, you have more important responsibilities. Do what you have to do. On the flip side of that If "they" did something (not wanting to accuse anyone cause that isn't fair but if "they" did) I wouldn't go down without a fight and most certainly not on the first punch. Sometimes all you have to do is throw ONE back. Don't even have to get into a brawl. I will tell you again Thank you. I PM'd you a couple of days ago to tell you just that and would like to thank you in public-- for without you I would not have the resource and have here and not have new friends.....real ones. Last night two of the guys we met from this forum came over to our house. We have all become friends. Are all going to Daytona together as a matter of fact. One brought a battery to put in my car (which still has been sitting for 2 years). Instead of me buying one he said I could use his until we got everything fixed and got my car running. These guys are going to help me fix my car. Do they want money? No? Want anything? NO. All that what is friendship, a friendship that is TOTALLY a result of you Mr. Pennock and this Forum. Again Thank You.
I am cool with a monthly fee if that is what you need to do. For now to help (as this is MY FORUM also) we are going to paypal some $$$ do you today. Yet again, Thanks and don't let them win.
[This message has been edited by 007 (edited 03-13-2005).]
If, out of all the members on here, we could get 100 people to donate $50 each, that should be a pretty decent bite out of the cost. Cliff would then have the old Server to use as a backup, always keeping a clean install ready. Just an idea. And believe me, before you go saying anything, $50 for me is no easy amount to give up. But I will gladly do so..
I take this site seriously. It is truly AMAZING how well this forum works. As many others have stated already. This website is the lifeblood for our fiero interest. Without it, a lot of us would probably not be driving our fieros still.
I'd gladly pay a yearly fee to use this site. I'd also pay to have a set of burnt cds of all the forums, archived or not.
Perhaps this may turn into a profitable business for you Cliff.
As a member, I'd pay up to $50 CDN a year to access this site without the hassles of petty chatroom kids who don't have any self esteem. I'd also have no problems in signing a statement saying I forfeit my fees and my membership if the owner (Cliff Pennock) decided to ban me for inappropriate conduct.
I have no idea how many cd's would hold all the forums, but I'd probably pay up to $50 cdn, maybe even more, for a set of cds.
I've contacted my brother ( An adept in security and Linux). I hope he responds to the bat signal I've put out in an email for him.
[This message has been edited by Soelasca (edited 03-13-2005).]
Cliff: Things should be listed as this here, as I’m more than sure that you already realize, but I will list anyhow:
Work - to afford the things for the family
Me - Because I’m just that special
I really think that you should institute a pay portion of the site, if vendor’s ads are not covering the cost of the upkeep of the site. I know personally that there are a number of different F-Body sites that are more than paying for themselves, through the use of ads, but then again, there are way more F-body vendors and F-body’s out there that the vendors can sell to.
The TECH sections of the forum should be turned into a pay-site if you have no further options at your disposal for generating revenue. Also, like others have stated, there is always the option not to host your own server, but elsewhere – this might free up some time w/ you for your family….or not. I'm not an IT guy, so I'm really grasping here…
Just a thought…
BTW: Thanx for the site to date, as I'd NEVER had the balls to buy a Fiero, much less buy one to put a 38oo SC into it if it wasent for PFF...a debt that I owe to you and all those that have helped me out along the way in days past, and I hope also in days to come.
Clif, If you are getting this many donations thats great, and I hope its enough. Would the new server keep the same site address? If not someone should take down every active memebers e-mail and send them the new address, id hate for the site to be down, and not know you changed the address, and never find her again...
Cliff, not sure if you're still keeping up w/ this thread but if you are. I'm sorry to hear about all this. I may not know a lot about fiero's but I spend a lot of time playing video games and am a personal friend of someone who hosts gaming servers. If you dont know about gaming servers, ppl tend to make enemies very quickly on them and they always want to bring the servers down. There are malicious hacking attempts all the time on our servers. If you can get the IP, you can report them and you can also call/email their ISP informing them of their illegal activity. ISP's will usually (not wanting to get dragged into court regarding anything) drop the user from their service. Sure it's not having them thrown into jail, but it's at least something. You can still report them to the police, there is a branch that takes care of this, but honestly in all the times we've reported people we've never seen anything happen.
Other then that, I wish you best of luck with your daughter, and I'm sure there are other hosting companies (read companies; companies actually have the money to sue ISP's for the address and name and then will press charges in court) that we could try to transfer the forum to. I know this sounds like treason, I respect EVERYTHING cliff has done, i know that there have been countless hours put into keeping this forum up to date and alive. But this shouldn't be cutting into your personal life just because some idiots decide they want to destroy a great source of information and friendship. So if you DO put this server back up, good for you, I hope it stays up and I earnestly thank you. If you dont want to, PLEASE allow someone else to carry on your work. I honestly dont know what I would do without this forum, my mechanic doesnt know jack about fieros, almsot all my ideas come from this forum. I'm sure others feel the same as well.
Have a good day. Hopefully I will still be hearing from you all in a month or so. :-)
Although I used to be a mechanic ( I've been out of work for 3 yrs because of an injury) I get most of my fiero specific info from here. I just set everything I have in my paypal to help whether or not you keep this site up. It 's not much but maybe I can come up with more later. with your help I keep my wife's daily driver v6 running for her and am currently doing a 4.9 on my 86.