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Chrysler 3.5 HO V6 swap by seajai
Started on: 08-03-2012 06:21 PM
Replies: 311 (28250 views)
Last post by: seajai on 07-04-2017 12:05 AM
seajai
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Report this Post08-03-2012 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got my engine swap car today.



It's a 2003 300m with the 250hp HO v6 and an auto transaxle.



This swap has been talked about in the past, but as far as I can tell, has yet to be done. I was curious about a longitudinal setup, and the thread started by engine man a while back got me thinking. I like the Audi V8 he is doing but I want an automatic, and that engine never came with a non-quattro auto trans so the computer stuff was going to be a pain.

The 3.5 measures 19" from cam cover to bell housing flange, and the trans is 5.5" from bell housing to axle center-line, for a total of 24.5". This is pretty close to the firewall-to-axle measurement in the stock engine bay so I think it's going to be a good fit. I am currently researching my computer options. I would like to use the factory computers, I can get the immobilizer programming removed from the factory pcm. I'm not sure how the bcm and pcm will react when I start removing modules from the bus though. I have been unable to find the needed info on the subject so I am just going to start experimenting on my car and see what happens. The backup plan is a megasquirt / megashift setup.
This is uncharted territory and sure to be a challenge, but I love a good challenge.

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Ang84Indy
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Report this Post08-03-2012 06:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Ang84IndySend a Private Message to Ang84IndyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This sounds interesting, I'm going to be watching this thread.

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Macs86GT
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Report this Post08-03-2012 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Macs86GTSend a Private Message to Macs86GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have a Concorde with that engine in it and it makes it move quite nicely. It would really move a fiero nice and has a smooth power band.

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Austrian Import
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Report this Post08-03-2012 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

First time I saw that engine in a friends car I was wondering about fitting it to a Fiero. Wish it came with a manual, but I guess can't have everything.

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Erik
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Report this Post08-04-2012 01:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ErikClick Here to Email ErikSend a Private Message to ErikEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ive changed a few of the failure prone 2.7s for customers and every one of them had a quirky transmission that ends up failing. If yours is the same trans I would beware they also have apretty high failure rate. That being said the 2.7engine is a pretty powerful v6 for its size, I can imagine what a 3.5 would be like.

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Austrian Import
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Report this Post08-04-2012 01:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Austrian ImportClick Here to Email Austrian ImportSend a Private Message to Austrian ImportEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

First time I saw that engine in a friends car I was wondering about fitting it to a Fiero. Wish it came with a manual, but I guess can't have everything.

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Reallybig
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Report this Post08-04-2012 04:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ReallybigSend a Private Message to ReallybigEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just looked up some interesting related info here:

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/V6/35.html

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Fierofreak00
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Report this Post08-04-2012 01:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fierofreak00Click Here to Email Fierofreak00Send a Private Message to Fierofreak00Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Erik:

I've changed a few of the failure prone 2.7's for customers, and everyone of them had quirky transmissions that ended up failing. If you have the same trans, I would beware, as they have a pretty high failure rate.
I edited your post to fix the errors in your grammer


Really? You're kidding right?? I've been a Gold Certified Chrysler tech for 14yrs, and have been at a dealership since this transmission came out. And in that time, I can count on two hands and a foot, how many times I have seen the 42LE fail. It is used behind all the LH bodies, as well as the Prowler and in my professional opinion is one of the best transmissions Chrysler has used (within recent years, the torque flight not included). I have 265k on my 99 Intrepid and it has had the pan opened once to change the filter. And my mother-in-laws Intrepid has over 165k on it, and I have never touched that trans either. -Jason

[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 08-04-2012).]

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pontiackid86
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Report this Post08-04-2012 02:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiackid86Click Here to Email pontiackid86Send a Private Message to pontiackid86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

L:ets just put it this way, My 1st time over 100 MPH (more like 140MPH) was inb my dads chrysler 300M special. Very very powerful engine and also with the right exhaust it sounds like an infinity.. Now jayson... Lol I do have to admit we have been through 2 transmissions in the 300M with now 145K on it.

[This message has been edited by pontiackid86 (edited 08-04-2012).]

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Erik
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Report this Post08-04-2012 03:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ErikClick Here to Email ErikSend a Private Message to ErikEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fierofreak00:
Really? You're kidding right?? I've been a Gold Certified Chrysler tech for 14yrs, and have been at a dealership since this transmission came out. And in that time, I can count on two hands and a foot, how many times I have seen the 42LE fail. It is used behind all the LH bodies, as well as the Prowler and in my professional opinion is one of the best transmissions Chrysler has used (within recent years, the torque flight not included). I have 265k on my 99 Intrepid and it has had the pan opened once to change the filter. And my mother-in-laws Intrepid has over 165k on it, and I have never touched that trans either. -Jason



Thats nice that you havent had any problems.The 3 that I worked on, none newer than a 2000 had transmissions that either would fail to shift out of second or fail to shift at all. Which caused the engine to rev high in combination with the poor oiling oil sludge problem the 2.7 had which would cause the engine to fail with a rod knock or windowing the block .I ended up changing the engines and transmissions in all. Its been a few years since I researched what trans was used with that engine. IIRC there were several different ones used but I could be wrong. I did a little research at the time and found that there were tons of complaints and Chrysler was dragging their feet on covering the losses .It seemed there was class action lawsuits against Chryler on these issues. Im not trying to knock the engine or trans because I had thought about using the combo for a Fiero swap as well although I was planning on doing a 2.7 rather than a 3.5 which I am not aware of having any problems, engine wise.

To add to my experience with these engines I just looked up some pictures I had taken during a trans engine replacement and it was a 2000 Concorde with the 3.2 that had a messed up trans and a trashed engine. I dissasembled the junked engine and found the sludge in the bottom of the pan along with a bad timing chain and of course a trashed rod.

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 08-04-2012).]

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Fierofreak00
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Report this Post08-04-2012 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fierofreak00Click Here to Email Fierofreak00Send a Private Message to Fierofreak00Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by seajai:


I am currently researching my computer options. I would like to use the factory computers, I can get the immobilizer programming removed from the factory pcm. I'm not sure how the bcm and pcm will react when I start removing modules from the bus though. I have been unable to find the needed info on the subject so I am just going to start experimenting on my car and see what happens. The backup plan is a megasquirt / megashift setup.


The PCM may complain that it is not receiveing bus messages. But, it won't or shouldn't affect the starting or operation of the car (depending on VTSS and SKIM info)...Technically speaking, you should be able to use the PCM (NGC 4) controller on it's own. I don't know what your going to do for a speedo option as that is a bused signal from the TCM/PCM to the cluster and ABS. Also emission DTC's will be an issue, returnless fuel system and it's associated pump module..Lots of stuff to think about...-Jason

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seajai
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Report this Post08-04-2012 04:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fierofreak00:


The PCM may complain that it is not receiveing bus messages. But, it won't or shouldn't affect the starting or operation of the car (depending on VTSS and SKIM info)...Technically speaking, you should be able to use the PCM (NGC 4) controller on it's own. I don't know what your going to do for a speedo option as that is a bused signal from the TCM/PCM to the cluster and ABS. Also emission DTC's will be an issue, returnless fuel system and it's associated pump module..Lots of stuff to think about...-Jason


There are a couple different places that can take my PCM and remove SKIM, so I think that part will be easy. Because the Autostick feature shows the gear selected in the speedo, I was thinking about using the factory speedo and tach and trying to make it work in a different housing, so I would need to retain the BCM for that. (That may not be as easy.) My only concern is a "no bus" error message in the cluster display if I remove the other modules from the bus. All the modules on this car are routed through the BCM so my plan was to just start removing modules from the bus and see if anything hiccups. (that's the nice part of having a complete running car). I downloaded a factory service manual for the LH cars, so I have all the wiring diagrams and data bus info I need to experiment. I hadn't thought about the returnless fuel line, but the fuel pump and level sender are run through the BCM so I may have to adapt the entire 300m fuel system in to the Fiero's. If all else fails, I'll go with Megasquirt for the engine and Megashift for the trans.

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seajai
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Report this Post08-04-2012 10:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Disconnected as many modules on the PCI BUS as I could, no ses light, no error messages. Looks like I may be in luck.

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Report this Post08-04-2012 11:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Silicoan86Click Here to Email Silicoan86Send a Private Message to Silicoan86Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Nice to see you've decided to try something unique! I hope to see it at one of the local meets when it's complete.

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Report this Post08-06-2012 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for qwikgtaClick Here to Email qwikgtaSend a Private Message to qwikgtaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

For the fuel, can't your just use a C5 Vette fuel filter/pressure regulator? Its designed for two fuel lines in (Feed/Return) and one line out to the injectors?

Rob

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carbon
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Report this Post08-06-2012 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Silicoan86:

Nice to see you've decided to try something unique! I hope to see it at one of the local meets when it's complete.


+1

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seajai
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Report this Post08-06-2012 07:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

For the fuel, can't your just use a C5 Vette fuel filter/pressure regulator? Its designed for two fuel lines in (Feed/Return) and one line out to the injectors?

Rob


The fuel pump is part of an in-tank module with the pump, regulator, and level sensor all in one and is set to run at 58 psi +/- 5 psi and there is only 1 line out to the engine. Once I get the tanks out, I may try to make the 300m module work in the Fiero tank, which would simplify things greatly. Just depends on the depth of tanks I suppose and if I can get the Chrysler lock ring off and welded to the Fiero tank.

[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 08-06-2012).]

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Report this Post08-07-2012 12:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KhwClick Here to Email KhwSend a Private Message to KhwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by seajai:

Just depends on the depth of tanks I suppose and if I can get the Chrysler lock ring off and welded to the Fiero tank.



If the tank in the Chrysler isn't plastic. The 95 Neon I have is a metal tank and the 97 Neon is plastic.

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seajai
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Report this Post11-01-2012 12:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The summer house projects are done, which means I can finally get to MY project!

Donor and recipient are in the operating room:



The teardown is underway! I've been looking forward to this for 2 months, this is gonna be fun!



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TheRealShadowX
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Report this Post11-01-2012 12:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TheRealShadowXClick Here to Email TheRealShadowXSend a Private Message to TheRealShadowXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

COOL!!!

------------------

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Report this Post11-01-2012 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FFIEROFREDClick Here to Email FFIEROFREDSend a Private Message to FFIEROFREDEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

years ago, their was a car that used that drive line. It was called a "Indy Street" looked like a indy car, was street legal. It is not around any more. Should be a interesting car when you get it done.

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Report this Post11-01-2012 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My o5 Sebring has the 2.7 auto. Its getting close to 100K on it now and has plenty of power for a small v6. I havent had the first problem with the engine or transmission. Runs perfectly and dont use a drop of oil between changes. The whole car has been great. All its had done since new is new heater fan resistor, and a few batteries. Its still got the original brakes and tires that are in excellent condition. Suspension is still solid. Most of my driving is freeway. It gets awesome gas mileage too.

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seajai
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Report this Post11-04-2012 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Was a busy weekend but managed to get the engine out and on the ground. It was a fairly straightforward job with just a few main wiring connectors and a couple hoses to disconnect. Started removing the interior to harvest the wiring harnesses I will need. Pulled the seats and found about $10 bucks in change and a happy meal full of french fries and other foodstuffs. You can tell a lot about a person by the stuff you find under the seats.

Next it's the Fiero's turn...... Think I'm gonna pull the rear body panels off for better access and to run my new harness. Plus I can fix my leaky "D" filler panels. Gotta cut out the bottom of the trunk to make room for the transmission and exhaust too. Any pointers to make it look professional? The idea is to keep the top half and just have a shallow trunk.










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seajai
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Report this Post11-09-2012 01:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

More progress today, the engine is out.





Started stripping the cradle in preparation for modification. One interesting find was a bent long bolt where the lower arms attach to the left side knuckle, the holes are still nice and round though.



The plan for the weekend is to clear the engine bay of all the wiring, vacuum lines, and insulation. Get the stripped down cradle bolted back in and start the measuring and fitting process. Maybe even get the trunk cut out if there's time. More pics to come.....


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Report this Post11-09-2012 02:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That longitudinal FWD layout looks interesting. I wonder if those cars ever came with a manual transmission?

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carbon
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Report this Post11-09-2012 09:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

That longitudinal FWD layout looks interesting. I wonder if those cars ever came with a manual transmission?


Nope...

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TheRealShadowX
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Report this Post11-09-2012 10:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TheRealShadowXClick Here to Email TheRealShadowXSend a Private Message to TheRealShadowXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

That longitudinal FWD layout looks interesting. I wonder if those cars ever came with a manual transmission?


Acura Legends utilize a similar layout, and they were availible with a manual trans.

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Report this Post11-09-2012 10:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

New and interesting swaps... I love it!

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Report this Post11-09-2012 11:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fierofreak00Click Here to Email Fierofreak00Send a Private Message to Fierofreak00Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

If your not going to use them, I'd like to know if you would sell the P/S lines from the rack to the pump from the LH body (and as long as their not rusted,destroyed, or beyond use!).

Keep up the good work, I'm interested in this project. -Jason

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Report this Post11-09-2012 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Can you do me a favor? Measure the front of the crank pulley to the c/v axle. I want to see how long this drivetrain is just for future reference.
Thanks!

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seajai
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Report this Post11-09-2012 06:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Fierofreak00:

If your not going to use them, I'd like to know if you would sell the P/S lines from the rack to the pump from the LH body (and as long as their not rusted,destroyed, or beyond use!).

Keep up the good work, I'm interested in this project. -Jason


PM sent

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seajai
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Report this Post11-09-2012 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by diabloroadster:

Can you do me a favor? Measure the front of the crank pulley to the c/v axle. I want to see how long this drivetrain is just for future reference.
Thanks!


Front of the crank pulley to the axle centerline is 26.5". Subtract 2" for pulley depth for timing cover to axle centerline.

Overall length of engine and transmission is 44.5" from pulley to rear transmission mount.

Track width from wheel bearing hub flange to hub flange is 64.25". For comparison, the stock 88 Fiero rear suspension is 62.5" flange to flange.

[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 11-09-2012).]

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diabloroadster
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Report this Post11-09-2012 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by seajai:


Front of the crank pulley to the axle centerline is 26.5". Subtract 2" for pulley depth for timing cover to axle centerline.

Overall length of engine and transmission is 44.5" from pulley to rear transmission mount.

Track width from wheel bearing hub flange to hub flange is 64.25". For comparison, the stock 88 Fiero rear suspension is 62.5" flange to flange.



Thanks! That would in my Diablo with all kinds of room to spare. Its nice to know just in case another project comes along....

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seajai
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Report this Post11-11-2012 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Well, it's been a productive weekend.

Initially, I had trimmed the well area of the trunk to fit the engine on Saturday, today I removed the seam sealer and drilled out the spot welds and removed the entire well. The plan is to weld in a flat plate to make a shallow trunk.

Before:



After:



During the initial mock-up, I found the crank pulley hit the lower firewall bump out area which didn't allow the engine to go as far forward as I wanted. I trimmed an area to allow for some pulley clearance and let the engine move a bit more forward. I will need to trim a little more on each side to make room for the alternator and A/C compressor. After everything is fit, I will box in the areas I cut out to strengthen any weakness I may have caused by cutting.



The cradle was temporarily braced to allow the front and rear cross-members to be cut out.



So here it is, the engine is mocked up in place and the cradle is in. Front and rear crossmembers will be built with everything in place.





I think it looks pretty damn sweet!











I installed the suspension to check clearances, it all looks good, even at full extension. There is about a 3" offset in the axle centerline from trans to knuckle. The drivers side axle looks good but the passenger side axle is shorter because the differential is on that side which makes the angle seem a bit too much for my liking. The track width if the 300 is about 1 3/4" wider than the Fiero which means my axles are a little too long, so I'm still working on a plan for that. The other issue is the upper radiator hose water neck and part of the intake are tight to the firewall. I think I am going to box in the area where the ECM used to be to allow for clearance and maybe "massage" the firewall on each side where the cam covers hit. This should give me another 1" to move the engine forward, further reducing my axle offset angle. The side effect of this is my wiring and cables may need to be re-routed which may be a bit of a challenge.

[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 11-11-2012).]

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diabloroadster
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Report this Post11-11-2012 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looking good !!!!
I wouldnt even mess with the factory engine management, Megasquirt all the way...

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Report this Post11-12-2012 01:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This could get ugly. My boss just showed up on day with this to get it out of his garage, he said he wants me to put it in his concord, but has no money. Its supposed to be low mileage. I like the dual throttle bodies.
He should know better by now that it could end up in one of my cars.
Ill be watching close! Good luck!

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Project Genisis Lo Budget 3800SC swap

88 Coupe under construction

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diabloroadster
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Report this Post11-12-2012 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:

This could get ugly. My boss just showed up on day with this to get it out of his garage, he said he wants me to put it in his concord, but has no money. Its supposed to be low mileage. I like the dual throttle bodies.
He should know better by now that it could end up in one of my cars.
Ill be watching close! Good luck!





what did that motor come out of??

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hercimer01
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Report this Post11-12-2012 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It came out of a 96 Chrysler LHS. I beleive its a Concorde. I haven't seen the car.

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diabloroadster
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Report this Post11-12-2012 07:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for diabloroadsterSend a Private Message to diabloroadsterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:

It came out of a 96 Chrysler LHS. I beleive its a Concorde. I haven't seen the car.


So is the intake/dual throttle bodies custom or aftermarket? I never seen one of those engines with dual throttle bodies.....

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Brian T. Brown
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Report this Post11-12-2012 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brian T. BrownClick Here to Email Brian T. BrownSend a Private Message to Brian T. BrownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That duel throttle body 3.5 is the first gen, the single throttle body 3.5 is the second gen.

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Brian T. Brown
1987 Fiero GT Fastback
1998 Grand Prix GTP

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