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Build thread: '88 + 3800 = Fun in Spokane (Dial-up death warning) by aaronkoch
Started on: 07-13-2009 03:46 PM
Replies: 319 (28751 views)
Last post by: aaronkoch on 06-19-2018 09:04 PM
aaronkoch
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Report this Post08-20-2011 02:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok, I've isolated the problem:

By checking injector feeds one by one, I've confirmed that all 6 injectors are receiving switched ign +12v, and are correctly connected to the pcm.

Here's the weird part, plugging in 1 injector at a time and cranking reveals that injectors 2, 4, 6 fire every time. 1, 3, and 5 maybe fire once, and then don't. If I plug in the '96 pcm from the lasabre, engine immediately fires up on all 6. I've verified that the '97 firebird pcm has the same grounds and injector pins.

So, at this point, the PCM is either bad, or my bank 1 o2 sensor absolutely NEEDS to be wired up fully before bank 1 injectors will fire.

Is there a good way to test that bank of injector drivers on the PCM? I really don't want to swap the PCM unless I have to, have already paid HPTuners for the license..

[This message has been edited by aaronkoch (edited 08-20-2011).]

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post09-18-2011 06:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Problem fixed! I bit the bullet and purchased a 98 grand prix pcm, repinned both pcm connectors, and fired her up. Imagine my relief when it ran perfectly.. So, now i need to purchase another license for hptuners to disable the emissions and tranny codes, & put the car back together. Wont be long till she's on the road...

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Dogcreek
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Report this Post09-18-2011 09:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DogcreekClick Here to Email DogcreekSend a Private Message to DogcreekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wooo Hoo!!! Music to your ears NO DOUBT!! Way to go ... Fiero Fest 2012 here you come!

Jeff

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post09-19-2011 12:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Much as I hate to admit it I should have listened to Darkhorizon and gone with the 98-02 PCM from the start..

I guess the Grand Prix PCM doesn't have any active theft deterrent built into the PCM, it stays running just fine out of the box.

I still can't believe that '97 camaro PCM was bad, does that happen often? Oh well.. I'm only out the $100 for a new HPTuners license..

Anybody have a specific list of things needing changed for a L36 with a 4 speed muncie setup?

I already know about:
EGR P-code no report
EVAP P-code no report
Post-cat O2 P-code no report
Auto Trans errors no-report.

The camaro pcm was already from a stick, is there anything else I need to do to make sure the pcm doesn't go into limp-home mode or something?

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JPH87
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Report this Post09-19-2011 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JPH87Click Here to Email JPH87Send a Private Message to JPH87Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yay yay ayayay yaya

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KissMySSFiero
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Report this Post10-10-2011 06:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KissMySSFieroClick Here to Email KissMySSFieroSend a Private Message to KissMySSFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I just read through this. Nice build. Any updates?

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post10-10-2011 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Not too much.. Just fixed up a bit of PO wiring, and re-attached and secured the steering column (I really hate crawling in there upside down, especially since I'm 6'4".. ).

I've been busy saving and planning for my trip to GeForce LAN 6 with my oldest son this week. Now that the car is actually almost done tho, I'm getting excited again. It's hard to stay motivated for a multi-year project, but I'm trying very hard to make sure family comes first, before the car. If it takes a while, so be it.

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Report this Post02-13-2012 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JSzpotekClick Here to Email JSzpotekSend a Private Message to JSzpotekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Any update?

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post03-05-2012 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Small update: I got a set of new-looking grey seats on Saturday. In the next week or two, I'll actually try to get this pig on the road!

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Dogcreek
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Report this Post04-03-2012 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DogcreekClick Here to Email DogcreekSend a Private Message to DogcreekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hey Pal!! How is it going? Still have the Monsoon deck here for you... I have been so tied up with work I haven't talked to anybody save for Tony... Spring is coming... wait for it...wait for it.... yeah right! Spokane, the Siberia of North America...

Jeff

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post04-11-2012 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Big day yesterday:

I drove the car under it's own power for the first time!

Not too exciting, as I just backed it out of the garage and up the car trailer, but it still felt good.

It's now at Joe's (FieroKing) getting an exhaust made for it..

After this, I need to get the interior put in, panels re-attached, a new battery and battery cabling installed, and it's off to get an alignment! Won't be long now..

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30+mpg
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Report this Post04-11-2012 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 30+mpgClick Here to Email 30+mpgSend a Private Message to 30+mpgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Who still has dial-up these days?

I would have swapped the alternator & ignition coils as seen here:



Don't have to be concerned with the ign contacting the firewall plus moves the weight of the alt closer to the middle of the car.

[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 04-11-2012).]

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thedrue
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Report this Post04-11-2012 11:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thedrueSend a Private Message to thedrueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sounds good Aaron! I know Katey and I missed last year but we will be at Fiero fest this year and I expect to see you and your car there!

I don't know about Katey but I sure know I could use some more of those alcohol fueled words of wisdom!

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post04-13-2012 02:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

As long as Jeff shows up with Gummy Bears.

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post04-17-2012 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Exhaust is built!

Unfortunately, I tried making my own exhaust manifold gaskets with that copper stuff, and it leaks a bit, so I'll have to order some big-boy gaskets.
Car is home, and the re-assembly has started.




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Report this Post04-17-2012 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bad assed! Call me if you are looking for any extra hands this weekend.

Tony

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post04-23-2012 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok, now I'm confused.. It turns out I didn't cheap out on the exhaust gaskets, so now I need to do some sleuthing to figure out where the leak is. Hmm. Seems like if it's not one thing, it's 5 others..

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Report this Post05-06-2012 12:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BigBenb84Click Here to Email BigBenb84Send a Private Message to BigBenb84Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Got a pic of those front wheels mounted? I read on the front page your offsets and wanted to see what they looked like mounted. I'm looking at the same style for my '88.

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post05-29-2012 06:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

More good news:

I had a couple of hours Saturday to take a look at the exhaust leak. Turns out, Joe's slipping in his retirement years and just forgot to tighten the bolts to the front flange. ROFL. Just need to re-assemble now, and get it aligned. We have a bunch of family stuff happening this week, but maybe this weekend, I'll have the panels on and the interior back in.

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Report this Post06-08-2012 08:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DogcreekClick Here to Email DogcreekSend a Private Message to DogcreekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Aaron!! How the hell are you? We need to chat just to catch up. Also I need to bring you the Monsoon deck and Stacie's blanket... Which I actually have become attached too.. Miss talking to you.. I know you are close... closer...wait for it...wait for it... I am sick of waiting!!!! I want to see your car

Jeff

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post06-17-2012 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Ok, finally got the battery mounted up front, and got the wiring run. Also, since I fixed the exhaust leak, and Spencer (Shill) came over, I did a quick sound grab video to show you guys why I went with the F-body manifolds. The car sounds a LOT like a stock V6, which in my mind is a great thing.. Especially since 3800's get a pretty bad rap for engine sound.



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aaronkoch
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Report this Post06-19-2012 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally PM'ed by FieroGT42:

That's awesome. It can't change the firing order without changing the crank but it changes the exhaust pulses?
Do you have any idea if this will work with a Series II or II supercharged?


To answer your question, yes.

Just to clarify, this IS a series II... Also, both the 60 degree v6 (2.8, 3.4, 3100, 3400, 3500, 3900) and the series II and III 3800's all fire a cylinder every 120 degrees of crank rotation. On the 60 degree engines, there is an additional 60 degree splay between cyl 1&2, 3&4, 5&6.



On the series II and III 3800's, they are 90 degree motors, with a 30 degree splay between pistons.


The difference is in the firing order. On a stock 60 deg motor (like the stock fiero), the firing order is 1 2 3 4 5 6. The exhaust goes from the passenger side to the drivers side, so the firing pulses are from the furthest away (to the y-pipe) to the closest. On a stock 3800 exhaust, the pipe is oriented the same way, but the firing order is 1 6 5 4 3 2. This means that the pulses go from shortest to longest. I don't know WHY that makes them sound like poop stock, but they do. The F-body manifolds usually face towards the transmission in an f-body, giving them the same short-to-long pulses. I flipped them, pointing them towards the front of the engine. This means the pulses are 120 degrees apart (just like the fiero's 2.8) and are ordered the same down the tube, so longest pulse, then middle, then shortest -- same as the 60 degree with a stock exhaust configuration is oriented.

You wouldn't believe how many people told me it wouldn't work.. But math usually does.

[This message has been edited by aaronkoch (edited 06-19-2012).]

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Report this Post06-21-2012 01:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroGT42Click Here to Email FieroGT42Send a Private Message to FieroGT42Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the info and proving them wrong. That looks like an N/A engine. I'd love to do this with a SC2 or SC3, but will they fit without interference on the supercharged version?

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Report this Post06-22-2012 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DogcreekClick Here to Email DogcreekSend a Private Message to DogcreekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Since you didn't call me back hoser.... How is it going? Call me... but don't call me "back hoser" OK? I see bees and I think of you.... twitch twitch

Jeff

------------------


Mine = 1986/2007 LS4 Fiero GXP
Brides= All stock 1988 Formula

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iluvsd619
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Report this Post06-24-2012 02:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for iluvsd619Click Here to Email iluvsd619Send a Private Message to iluvsd619Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I like the idea of the fbody manifolds. What year car are they from? Also, how did you route the exhaust system?

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post06-27-2012 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm pretty sure they're off of a 2002 L36 firebird. I just walked into a wrecker and told him I needed a set of manifolds from a 3800 based f-body. He handed me those for $30 or so and they fit.

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post06-27-2012 12:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sorry, about the routing, I'll have to get pics for you when I go back under. I'm planning on pulling off the exhaust to remove a rattling heat shield, so I'll take a pic of the whole exhaust off the car for you too.

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Dogcreek
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Report this Post07-06-2012 09:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DogcreekClick Here to Email DogcreekSend a Private Message to DogcreekEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

So.... Aaron.... you ever gonna call me back? LOL

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post07-22-2012 01:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

VERY productive day today.
I replaced my temporary heater return plug with an actual plug that can tighten down, and ran the car for a while today. Even though it was pushing 90 here today, it ran nice and cool. After about 15 minutes of idling, it hit 195, and the fan came on as programmed. Then, it even shut off after dropping to 180.

So, since I have no more mechanical projects to dive into, I figured I'd get busy on the body. Spencer came over (Shill) and offered me moral support..

I got all the panels on, and fairly lined up. I need to make a run to get some plastic rivets tomorrow, so some of the trim isn't on yet, but it's close....

I really really want to drive to fiero fest on Aug. 10th. Tomorrow I'm tackling the interior.

Shot of driver's side right before I put the hood back on:




Shot from passenger side with my helper buddy:



Don't pick on me for my white panels, when I bought the car the two panels that I've replaced were cracked. I had the white ones off of a parts car, and the whole car will be painted white at a later date, so it worked out well. Looks goofy now, but I just want to drive it.

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post07-22-2012 01:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dogcreek:

So.... Aaron.... you ever gonna call me back? LOL


I've called a few times and gotten your VM..

I'll be wrenching tomorrow if you're bored..

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post07-23-2012 12:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

More updates:

I built an intake out of 3" PVC, using about 12" of 3" PVC pipe, something called a no-hub adapter, and a Fram CA9345 filter.


The stock L36 intake rubber attachment takes a 3.5" pipe, and 3" ABS/PVC is 3.5"OD, so SCORE. I don't have any exhaust on that side of my motor, so I'm pretty sure it'll stay plenty cool over there for the plastic.

I ran PVC straight from the intake to the "No Hub adapter." The reason I chose this piece is that it slip fits over the 3" pipe, and then has a 3.5" section with a raised lip at the end to ensure that the filter can't work loose.




The filter is a Fram CA9345, and is sealed on one end and a 3.5" slip fit on the other. I had to lube the no-hub adapter with wd40 and stretch it on, and it ain't going anywhere.




Next, I went to work sealing the holes that some ninny cut in the firewall for speakers. I got a tube of seam sealer, cut some panels from galvanized sheet metal, and gooped / riveted the panels on. Done.






Then, I pulled the carpets out of the garage, and all the interior pieces that have been sitting in boxes for years, and cleaned them up. The stupid cats peed on the underlayment, so I had to make new ones from heavy closed cell foam. Then I put in the carpets, and almost died from heat exhaustion. I'm done for the weekend..




Finally, somebody PM'ed me about exhaust routing. I crawled under and took some pics.











All for now, more later.

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iluvsd619
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Report this Post07-23-2012 04:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for iluvsd619Click Here to Email iluvsd619Send a Private Message to iluvsd619Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I pm'd you. Thanks for the pics. Looks and sounds great!

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Report this Post07-23-2012 04:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ReallybigSend a Private Message to ReallybigEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Your exhaust system looks similar to what I came up with for my 4.9. Here's a pic to show what mine looks like out of the car.




I've enjoyed following your progress. Keep up the good work!

[This message has been edited by Reallybig (edited 07-23-2012).]

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post08-06-2012 12:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

HUGE NEWS!

My car is done.

Well, it's not painted yet, but it's all back together, and it's getting aligned tomorrow. I took my wife up and down the street for the inaugural drive, and she feels really good.

I would be posting pictures, but it was too dark. It was really hard to be nice on the throttle, the L36 has a really nice torque curve. The motor isn't broken in though, and the alignment is WAAAY off, so I didn't want to tear things up too badly.

Looks like I might make it to NW Fiero Fest this year after all.

3 years, and 3 months, working only in spare time.



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Tony Kania
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Report this Post08-06-2012 12:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

You just gave me goose bumps! Congrats!

I will be attending the caravan on Friday. Woo Haw!

Tony

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Report this Post08-06-2012 10:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroallSend a Private Message to fieroallEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Congrats! Post some picks up.

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Report this Post08-07-2012 12:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I think I gave myself heat stroke yesterday, as I felt like the shaky dead today. But, after lots of water, some exciting moments in the bathroom, and some rest, I dragged myself over to Les Schwab to get the car aligned.

The guy that did the alignment was extremely good at his job, and had me back there a couple of times making sure he was setting it up like I wanted.

Here is the multi-colored (for now) plastic pig waiting to get her screws turned..





And sitting on the rack:




I'm happy to report that everything is awesome. Drives straight, no wiggles, shimmy, vibration, or anything else. I can't believe how smooth it rides, was expecting a bit more unnecessary roughness with poly bushings, lowering springs, and lower profile tires.
Oh, and another thing, I absolutely LOVE the 3800's amazing torque profile, and I only have the NA. Granted, Joe Jr. did a BUNCH of cleaning up on the heads, and the exhaust is pretty free flowing, but MAN it feels good.

It's all I can do to keep my foot out of it.

In case you guys run into this, I'll post my stupidity in the hopes it will save somebody else grief. When I first started driving it, I had a high idle. It would start and run fine, but the idle would hover around 1200-1400. I also had a CEL, so I whipped out my bluetooth OBDII adapter and phone, and the only code stored was a "Idle higher than expected." I checked the IAC, all the vacuum lines, and everything I could think of, and no help. I did a quick spray-over with starting fluid to help find the leak, but it never revved, so no leak. Hmmm...

I started searching for 3800 high idle on google, and low and behold, the set screw on the throttle body had been turned WAAAAYY in. I backed it out til it was no longer "helping" the throttle stay open, and the problem immediately disappeared. DOH.
At least it was an easy fix.

Also learned an interesting tidbit: The PCM will happily control the radiator fan via the relay and the car runs nice and cool (about 3/8 up the temp gauge, 192 indicated on scanner). I don't have AC in my car anymore, but if I run the engine fan via the AC button on the climate control, the PCM throws a P1656 code when it "sees" the floating relay voltage go to ground. The code reads something like "Fan relay driver voltage not as expected." Guess I'll have to just trust the PCM... It works quite happily on it's own.

I've got 40 miles on the clock today, and no other problems at all. Starts instantly (not even a half a crank), runs SMOOTHLY, pulls evenly, and has the most insanely awesome wail while accelerating with the combination of the free-flowing intake and my weirdo exhaust. I sounds a lot like a 370Z, but deeper. I'll try to figure out a way to get it on video.

Thanks to everybody here in Spokane / Cd'A who helped me so much over the 3+ years it took me to get to this point, Looks like I'll finally have a Fiero at NW Fiero Fest this year again.


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thedrue
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Report this Post08-07-2012 03:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thedrueSend a Private Message to thedrueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wooohoooo! Nice work! Katey and I are looking forward to seeing everyone and hanging out. Enjoy that car of yours you deserve it!

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post08-07-2012 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Some videos since I had some helpers..






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Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post08-08-2012 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochClick Here to Email aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Spencer (shill) grabbed one more vid as we came back around..


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