Click here to visit The FieroStore | View all sponsors
  Pennock's Fiero Forum
  The Construction Zone
  Project MIDTRBO (Page 5)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version

This topic is 9 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9 
Previous Page | Next Page
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Project MIDTRBO by ALLTRBO
Started on: 11-21-2009 09:51 AM
Replies: 348 (28609 views)
Last post by: Will on 02-03-2015 03:48 PM
Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post08-18-2010 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Wow, the stock TB must be tiny then!



I believe it's 43mm, but may be 46mm.

Nice, glowing turbo. I don't care who you are, that's effing hot! That's a lot of running.

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post08-30-2010 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Yep, that's itty bitty! My 2G DSM came stock with a tiny 52mm TB and the stock 1G upgrade was 60mm.

In other news, I just bought this Pioneer head unit for MIDTRBO.

http://www.pioneerelectroni...rs/AVH-P5200BT?tab=D



It'll do everything I want it to, and I got it for $486.50 shipped using a 30% discount, not a bad deal I think! (back in the day something of this quality with this many features would have cost $2500 or so, hah!)

I used code UIBMC8UY (through Sep. 4th) if anyone might find that info useful for the 95 Pioneer products that qualify. That code is for 30% off in addition to the other applied discounts, only sold by Amazon directly and not other retailers on the Amazon website. Here's the link to the 95 Pioneer products that qualify.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref...nb&p_6=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Use the code at checkout and you'll be hooked up.
(I have no affiliation with them, just trying to pass along the good deals)

I will also be mounting up a netbook based custom all-in-one hideaway tuning suite thought up during this recent thread of mine .
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/077350.html
I'll post a snippet from one of my posts about it to describe (the original idea in the thread has made way for this):


"My idea is to modify the center console storage compartment to open fully horizontal, get rid of the compartment to make it a flat panel, then mount the netbook with rubber on a low-profile swivel mount so I can open it up then rotate it toward the passenger or me depending. I'll hard-mount my emulator and datalogging cables and leave them plugged in to two USB's on the netbook end, the emulator cable plugged into the ECU, and the datalogger cable plugged into the ALDL port, which will be re-mounted to the inside of the center console since I'll no longer need it to be externally accessible anyway. Fortunately all of that is really close together, so wiring will be cake.
I'll have to top it all off with a good quality hard-wired DC-AC power inverter that will run with the ignition full time.

If that all works out, viola! I'll have a fully integrated, very capable(+) hideaway tuning suite, which is exactly what I need.

Here's where you guys come in. First of all, are netbook hard drives the same as full laptop hard drives? If so, it shouldn't be hard to get a solid state drive to throw in. I'll also rubber-mount the netbook.
Can someone get some dimensions for me? I don't have my car back yet.
I need to know the height, width, and depth of the center storage area, that is, the depression in the center console, not the storage compartment. I'd very much appreciate it."


For the record, yes, the car will be getting a custom security system, and that's the only thing I'll say about it.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-31-2010).]

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post09-06-2010 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bump for updates??

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-06-2010 03:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Lots of little details are being finished up right now, and they started on the wiring harness. Dave should update soon.

I received my Pioneer head unit the other day, it's awesome! I hooked it up to a motorcycle battery on a battery tender and plugged into my shelf-system speakers to try it out because I just couldn't wait for my Fiero, and my wife and I watched a movie on it.

I also researched more on the netbook tuning suite, I'm narrowing lots of things down. For more details on that, visit the thread that's linked above. I'll post all about that here when I more physically get into it.

IP: Logged

bmwguru
Member

Posts: 4692
From: Howell, NJ USA
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score:    (38)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 131
Rate this member

Report this Post09-09-2010 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are a few quick pics of the finished exhaust. This was as close to Steven's specs on the wastegate as we could build it. There was no room to get the angles he had asked for and keep the wastegate on the muffled side. We are building the charge pipe system now and waiting for the pcm terminal pins to arrive. I'll update when I have more free time.....lot's going on right now.
Dave











IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post09-09-2010 08:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

Here are a few quick pics of the finished exhaust. This was as close to Steven's specs on the wastegate as we could build it. There was no room to get the angles he had asked for and keep the wastegate on the muffled side. We are building the charge pipe system now and waiting for the pcm terminal pins to arrive. I'll update when I have more free time.....lot's going on right now.
Dave
.....


Man, that looks awesome! ALLTRBO, you're going to end up with one hell of a car. But, we already knew that.. Excellent work bmwguru!

IP: Logged

bmwguru
Member

Posts: 4692
From: Howell, NJ USA
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score:    (38)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 131
Rate this member

Report this Post09-09-2010 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I can't take full credit for the exhaust. I am only as good as the rest of my team. Ryan fabricated the exhaust and joey helped. I just gave my nod of approval and insight.
Dave

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post09-09-2010 11:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I can't take full credit for the exhaust. I am only as good as the rest of my team. Ryan fabricated the exhaust and joey helped. I just gave my nod of approval and insight.
Dave


Your team does excellent work!

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 09-09-2010).]

IP: Logged

doublec4
Member

Posts: 8262
From: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jun 2003


Feedback score:    (20)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 151
Rate this member

Report this Post09-09-2010 11:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks like its going to be a meannnn ride! Post up a video of the exhaust when you can!

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-12-2010 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Sorry for the delayed response. I'm just now starting to recover from my insane work week last week. My mind and body have been...somewhere else.

The exhaust does look great, doesn't it? I hope that I don't have any WG control issues with the return plumbed over there (boost creep mainly), but if I do I'll cross that bridge when I get there. It sure does look sexy!

The crew has delved deeper into the harness and it sounds maybe like I have A/C now?

I'm buying Coinage's Quarter Master triple-disk clutch setup for the 3200 build. MIDTRBO is going to drive like a racecar, I just hope it doesn't drive me crazy!
The important thing is that it'll HOLD. I'll be one step closer to world domination! Muahaha

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post09-13-2010 12:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Sorry for the delayed response. I'm just now starting to recover from my insane work week last week. My mind and body have been...somewhere else.

The exhaust does look great, doesn't it? I hope that I don't have any WG control issues with the return plumbed over there (boost creep mainly), but if I do I'll cross that bridge when I get there. It sure does look sexy!

The crew has delved deeper into the harness and it sounds maybe like I have A/C now?

I'm buying Coinage's Quarter Master triple-disk clutch setup for the 3200 build. MIDTRBO is going to drive like a racecar, I just hope it doesn't drive me crazy!
The important thing is that it'll HOLD. I'll be one step closer to world domination! Muahaha


It(clutch) should hold.. next question is: Will the transmission? You've probably said it before, but I forgot and am to tired right now to go back through the thread, but what kind of power numbers are you expecting out of this build?

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-15-2010 12:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I'm attempting to get the 282 to hold lots of power by keeping the instant-torque down and reducing the MOI (Moment Of Inertia). Horsepower doesn't kill tranny's (to a point), transient loading does... that means a large amount of torque is applied to the tranny all at once, instead of progressively. This typically happens two ways; Via larger displacement engines that make lots of throttle-on torque, and via heavy rotating parts before the transmission (clutch assembly and crank) which have a high MOI and so don't want to stop spinning as easily. That extra energy is immediately transferred to everything downstream (the first, and often weakest in these cars, being the tranny) during launches and shifts. Those factors together are what cause many of the SBC cars to shred 282's if not driven lightly. Many of those swaps use massive flywheels that are WAY too heavy and large for this application, and that combined especially with 5.7 liters of TPI torque makes for a bad combo.

The reason I want to keep the 282 is mainly that it's very lightweight, only 85 lbs. dry (I think it was, maybe 95). Also, the car is already set up for it of course.

The 3200 will use a 76mm (2.8) crank and the twin-disk clutch, both of which weigh MUCH less and keep the MOI MUCH lower than a lot of the high-hp combos on here. The one disadvantage to this twin-disk in that respect is that it's designed to hold LOTS of torque and has solid hubs, and so grabs very hard without slippage, and that puts a heavier transient load on the trans than a lower-capacity clutch (like the Clutchnet 6-puck sprung-hub clutch that's in MIDTRBO now). I'm hoping the reduced MOI can cancel that out, though, while holding the higher power. Time will tell, and if the tranny goes kaput, my friend Will (username Will on here) has some ideas for the next one (and for his 282 behind his high-compression Northstar).

That setup will come together after this TGP shortblock w/Clutchnet clutch is tuned well and I have a better idea of some specifics I want to change for the 3200 like the cam, static compression, porting, etc. I won't post up my power estimate for that because I don't want to cause any controversy, especially if I don't make it.
With the TGP shortblock I'm hoping for 350whp on pump gas when tuned and with the water/air IC setup (which isn't the way it's going to leave Dave's shop... that'll be a very tuned-down version for reliability's sake). When it comes home without an IC and with the 8.7psi WG spring in it, I estimate that it'll make around 230whp, and that is, by far, as low as it should ever be.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-15-2010).]

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post09-15-2010 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I'm attempting to get the 282 to hold lots of power by keeping the instant-torque down and reducing the MOI (Moment Of Inertia). Horsepower doesn't kill tranny's (to a point), transient loading does... that means a large amount of torque is applied to the tranny all at once, instead of progressively. This typically happens two ways; Via larger displacement engines that make lots of throttle-on torque, and via heavy rotating parts before the transmission (clutch assembly and crank) which have a high MOI and so don't want to stop spinning as easily. That extra energy is immediately transferred to everything downstream (the first, and often weakest in these cars, being the tranny) during launches and shifts. Those factors together are what cause many of the SBC cars to shred 282's if not driven lightly. Many of those swaps use massive flywheels that are WAY too heavy and large for this application, and that combined especially with 5.7 liters of TPI torque makes for a bad combo.

The reason I want to keep the 282 is mainly that it's very lightweight, only 85 lbs. dry (I think it was, maybe 95). Also, the car is already set up for it of course.

The 3200 will use a 76mm (2.8) crank and the twin-disk clutch, both of which weigh MUCH less and keep the MOI MUCH lower than a lot of the high-hp combos on here. The one disadvantage to this twin-disk in that respect is that it's designed to hold LOTS of torque and has solid hubs, and so grabs very hard without slippage, and that puts a heavier transient load on the trans than a lower-capacity clutch (like the Clutchnet 6-puck sprung-hub clutch that's in MIDTRBO now). I'm hoping the reduced MOI can cancel that out, though, while holding the higher power. Time will tell, and if the tranny goes kaput, my friend Will (username Will on here) has some ideas for the next one (and for his 282 behind his high-compression Northstar).

That setup will come together after this TGP shortblock w/Clutchnet clutch is tuned well and I have a better idea of some specifics I want to change for the 3200 like the cam, static compression, porting, etc. I won't post up my power estimate for that because I don't want to cause any controversy, especially if I don't make it.
With the TGP shortblock I'm hoping for 350whp on pump gas when tuned and with the water/air IC setup (which isn't the way it's going to leave Dave's shop... that'll be a very tuned-down version for reliability's sake). When it comes home without an IC and with the 8.7psi WG spring in it, I estimate that it'll make around 230whp, and that is, by far, as low as it should ever be.



Lotta really good info that I "knew" but didn't quite make sense, me likey. I knew torque (don't know why I said HP) was the notorious transmission killer, but I didn't know about the MOI and rotational mass issues that (if I understand correctly, and may even be an over-simplification) multiply the amount of torque actually applied to the transmission and on down the line. Kinda close in my understanding?

I think I may be as excited about this as you are. LOL

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 09-15-2010).]

IP: Logged

vortecfiero
Member

Posts: 996
From: Toronto Area, Canada
Registered: Feb 2002


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 58
Rate this member

Report this Post09-15-2010 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for vortecfieroClick Here to visit vortecfiero's HomePageClick Here to Email vortecfieroSend a Private Message to vortecfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



is that braided Teflon being used for the wastegate dump ?
keeping in mind that the waste gate only opens when things are hot...
how much heat can that braided stuff handle ?

------------------



87 Fiero GT 5sp with Vortec L35 4300 Turbocharged V6
Bully Stage 2 clutch
Syclone intake manifold and engine management with Moates adapter and chip burner
Air/water intercooler and Devil's Own progressive water/alky injection
50lb injectors, 3 bar map sensor, Walboro fuel pump and Jabasco Intercooler pump
LM1 wideband on custom manifolds and 3" stainless exhaust system
T31 P trim T04B H3 turbo and a S10 caliper conversion.
Murphy's Constant Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value
Murphy's Law of Thermodynamics Things get worse under pressure.
Arthur C. Clarke "Any significantly advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post09-15-2010 09:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by vortecfiero:



is that braided Teflon being used for the wastegate dump ?
keeping in mind that the waste gate only opens when things are hot...
how much heat can that braided stuff handle ?



I thought the W/G opened when the manifold pressure got to a certain point to keep the intake pressure constant...

IP: Logged

bmwguru
Member

Posts: 4692
From: Howell, NJ USA
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score:    (38)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 131
Rate this member

Report this Post09-16-2010 06:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

That is not braided teflon as in a typical AN hose. That is a hose I purchased specifically used for a wastegate dump. We had to modify it to fit, but it will be fine. The inside is a flexible metal pipe. The outside has the braided hose on it.
Dave

IP: Logged

fieroguru
Member

Posts: 10822
From: Champaign, IL
Registered: Aug 2003


Feedback score:    (44)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 254
Rate this member

Report this Post09-16-2010 08:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

That is not braided teflon as in a typical AN hose. That is a hose I purchased specifically used for a wastegate dump. We had to modify it to fit, but it will be fine. The inside is a flexible metal pipe. The outside has the braided hose on it.
Dave


That looks similar to the factroy EGR tubes used on the 96+ SBC and 4.3's... but probably a larger diameter.

IP: Logged

87_special
Member

Posts: 183
From: Pensacola, FL
Registered: Oct 2006


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-16-2010 11:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87_specialSend a Private Message to 87_specialEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Just read thru your build thread. This a very well built car so far. At the rate youre going Im sure it will continue to improve. The Haus really does amazing work with so much attention to detail. That exhaust is amazing! The turbo setup is exactly how i would have liked to do mine if i only had the resources (time, money, patience).

Im running the same Clutchnet setup on my 3500T. It holds well but can be a little pedal heavy in stop and go traffic, also chatters a little when cold. Personally I'd save that twin-disk setup for your "future" build. It probably wont be very streetable and harder on the trans than a single disk, sprug hub setup.

Have you researched using a 2.8 crank in a 3500 block? Im not sure of the compatability. I have always wanted to build a destroked 3400 (which i think is a 3.0L) that could handle 8K and lots of boost. Good luck with the 3200 it will be a beast if you do it. Keep in mind the HM282 doesnt shift well above 6500rpms. I believe 7k is about the limit. A HM284 would work great at high rpm's but is kinda hard to find nowdays.

My setup definatly isnt as nice but it works. I originally built it this way to fit around a 3100/4t60E. Then had engine problems so swap to a 3500. Then had trans failure so i swapped to a fwd 5 speed.

[I have a spare 3500 UIM for sale just incase your interested ]

JoeCooley

------------------
1987 SE / Fastback - 3500 Turdbowd / '92 5-speed swap

No bandwagon here...

IP: Logged

Bridgetown
Member

Posts: 1205
From: Alberta
Registered: Feb 2007


Feedback score: (2)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-17-2010 02:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

87 check your PM's

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-24-2010 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:

Just read thru your build thread. This a very well built car so far. At the rate youre going Im sure it will continue to improve. The Haus really does amazing work with so much attention to detail. That exhaust is amazing! The turbo setup is exactly how i would have liked to do mine if i only had the resources (time, money, patience).

Im running the same Clutchnet setup on my 3500T. It holds well but can be a little pedal heavy in stop and go traffic, also chatters a little when cold. Personally I'd save that twin-disk setup for your "future" build. It probably wont be very streetable and harder on the trans than a single disk, sprug hub setup.

Have you researched using a 2.8 crank in a 3500 block? Im not sure of the compatability. I have always wanted to build a destroked 3400 (which i think is a 3.0L) that could handle 8K and lots of boost. Good luck with the 3200 it will be a beast if you do it. Keep in mind the HM282 doesnt shift well above 6500rpms. I believe 7k is about the limit. A HM284 would work great at high rpm's but is kinda hard to find nowdays.

My setup definatly isnt as nice but it works. I originally built it this way to fit around a 3100/4t60E. Then had engine problems so swap to a 3500. Then had trans failure so i swapped to a fwd 5 speed.

[I have a spare 3500 UIM for sale just incase your interested ]

JoeCooley



Cool! Thanks for chiming in. Do you have a thread about your car or can you give more info? I'd like to hear all about it. How did the 3100 compare to the 3500? Turbo specs? Boost level? Spool time? Tuning? C'mon, give it up!

I do expect the Clutchnet clutch to behave just how you described, thanks for the confirmation. It'll hold everything the TGP shortblock can throw at it, so I definitely don't plan on swapping to the twin-disk until I install the 3200. You're correct, that clutch is going to be a wild beast, it'll be hard to tame, but necessary. My only major concern with it is the instant clamping between shifts, that does indeed put more transient loading through the tranny. However, the MOI is going to be insanely low with this setup, and more-so because I'll be upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate to save even more weight. I'm hoping that this will make up for the slight slippage that organic single disk clutches have.

Yes, the 2.8 crank will drop right into the 3500 block, as will the other 60V6 cranks. The difference lies in the stroke (of course) and the rod journal diameter, which is okay since I won't be using any of the 3500 rotating assembly.
WOT-Tech sells Diamond forged pistons for the 3400, and can order them .100" over. That .100 will make up for the larger bore of the 3500 block plus an additional clean-up bore of about .020". It will come out to 3199cc's which isn't much less than the 3350cc's of the "3400", but it will love to rev higher.

The reason for using oversize 3400 pistons instead of 3500 pistons is that the wrist-pin heights are different between the two. The 3400 pin height sits perfect with the 76mm stroke to throw in a set of (very stout) off-the-shelf 5.85" small-journal small block Chevy rods. Those will need to be narrowed slightly to fit the 60V6 crank journal width and a bushing added to the small end to match the 3400 pin diameter. Both of those are simple machine operations that any decent machine shop can do on the cheap.
Slightly playing around with the Cometic MLS head gasket thicknesses along with the deck height (depending on whether or not it'll need to be decked) will net me around an 8.7:1 SCR with the "9.5:1" Diamond pistons (their rating is for a stock 3400 stroke. Destroking an engine will lower the SCR by the same percentage as the reduced stroke).
The 2.8 crank must be from a DIS 2.8 because of the internal crank trigger. The earlier one (like the stock Fiero 2.8) can be used, but to run DIS with it an external crank trigger setup must be used.

The 282 in stock form doesn't like to shift very high, but the reduced MOI of the clutch and smaller crank will raise the limit because the synchros don't have to work as hard to slow down the momentum at those RPM's, and that momentum decrease drops off the RPM's quicker anyway, reducing the synchros need to 'pull down' the RPM itself. Will has a few tricks up his sleeve as well, he's VERY familiar with the inner workings of the 282. Between these mods, I think 7500rpm shifts shouldn't be a problem and I'm hoping it might work to 8000, because the 3200 sure will with the right valvetrain, cam, and porting.

Thanks but no thanks on the spare 3500 UIM, I'm keeping the custom modified 3100 UIM. I hear the 3100/3400 UIM's don't flow any less than the 3500's, they're just a bit more peaky than the 3500's. At any rate, I plan on getting it ported so it'll flow very very well.

Thanks again for the comments!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-24-2010).]

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-24-2010 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

In other news, I just received my new Pioneer class-D amp for the shallow-mount Pioneer subs I have.

http://www.amazon.com/Pione...d=1285382063&sr=1-41

(I got it at 30% off with a code for select Pioneer products from Amazon. If anyone is interested in the discount code... just ask)

It puts out 400 watts RMS at 2ohms, which the 10's will be at when wired in parallel (and so 200rms each). That'll absolutely pound with 2 10's right behind the seats. All that amp in a svelte 6 lb package. That's the beauty of class-D (digital) amps. While not perfectly 'audiophile-clean' like a regular analog amp, they're a LOT smaller and lighter and create a LOT less heat for the same output. I hooked this amp up to my "temporary" home-car setup and it pounds hard at only 200 watts into one (home audio) 10" and is plenty clean enough for me.

I've been going back and forth over and over about what I'm going to do about audio between MIDTRBO and the Camaro. I'm torn. I LOVE the bass, but it'll all add weight to the Fiero which I'm desperately trying to avoid. I was thinking about one 8" under the dash, or two 8's behind the seats, or the two 10's behind the seat. At this point I'm leaning toward the 10's again because I will love how they sound/feel, though they're the biggest and heaviest. :/

/end Lunesta inspired rambles.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-24-2010).]

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post09-24-2010 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

technical speak





I wish I had the knowledge to understand even half of what you said. Whoa.

IP: Logged

87_special
Member

Posts: 183
From: Pensacola, FL
Registered: Oct 2006


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2010 12:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 87_specialSend a Private Message to 87_specialEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:


Cool! Thanks for chiming in. Do you have a thread about your car or can you give more info? I'd like to hear all about it. How did the 3100 compare to the 3500? Turbo specs? Boost level? Spool time? Tuning? C'mon, give it up!

I do expect the Clutchnet clutch to behave just how you described, thanks for the confirmation. It'll hold everything the TGP shortblock can throw at it, so I definitely don't plan on swapping to the twin-disk until I install the 3200. You're correct, that clutch is going to be a wild beast, it'll be hard to tame, but necessary. My only major concern with it is the instant clamping between shifts, that does indeed put more transient loading through the tranny. However, the MOI is going to be insanely low with this setup, and more-so because I'll be upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate to save even more weight. I'm hoping that this will make up for the slight slippage that organic single disk clutches have.

Yes, the 2.8 crank will drop right into the 3500 block, as will the other 60V6 cranks. The difference lies in the stroke (of course) and the rod journal diameter, which is okay since I won't be using any of the 3500 rotating assembly.
WOT-Tech sells Diamond forged pistons for the 3400, and can order them .100" over. That .100 will make up for the larger bore of the 3500 block plus an additional clean-up bore of about .020". It will come out to 3199cc's which isn't much less than the 3350cc's of the "3400", but it will love to rev higher.

The reason for using oversize 3400 pistons instead of 3500 pistons is that the wrist-pin heights are different between the two. The 3400 pin height sits perfect with the 76mm stroke to throw in a set of (very stout) off-the-shelf 5.85" small-journal small block Chevy rods. Those will need to be narrowed slightly to fit the 60V6 crank journal width and a bushing added to the small end to match the 3400 pin diameter. Both of those are simple machine operations that any decent machine shop can do on the cheap.
Slightly playing around with the Cometic MLS head gasket thicknesses along with the deck height (depending on whether or not it'll need to be decked) will net me around an 8.7:1 SCR with the "9.5:1" Diamond pistons (their rating is for a stock 3400 stroke. Destroking an engine will lower the SCR by the same percentage as the reduced stroke).
The 2.8 crank must be from a DIS 2.8 because of the internal crank trigger. The earlier one (like the stock Fiero 2.8) can be used, but to run DIS with it an external crank trigger setup must be used.

The 282 in stock form doesn't like to shift very high, but the reduced MOI of the clutch and smaller crank will raise the limit because the synchros don't have to work as hard to slow down the momentum at those RPM's, and that momentum decrease drops off the RPM's quicker anyway, reducing the synchros need to 'pull down' the RPM itself. Will has a few tricks up his sleeve as well, he's VERY familiar with the inner workings of the 282. Between these mods, I think 7500rpm shifts shouldn't be a problem and I'm hoping it might work to 8000, because the 3200 sure will with the right valvetrain, cam, and porting.

Thanks but no thanks on the spare 3500 UIM, I'm keeping the custom modified 3100 UIM. I hear the 3100/3400 UIM's don't flow any less than the 3500's, they're just a bit more peaky than the 3500's. At any rate, I plan on getting it ported so it'll flow very very well.

Thanks again for the comments!



I never got around to posting a build thread. The 3100 ran pretty good for about two weeks till I had some bad valvetrain issues caused by my ex-friend machinist who decided to fall in love with Crack while building my heads. Long story short, I didnt get to push the car too hard w/ 3100 in it. The $400 3500 was cheaper than new valves and gaskets and was an excuse to upgrade. The 3500 has been a blast though and is night and day with the 5 speed swap. The turbo is a Toyota CT26 w/ T04E compressor wheel upgrade. Its a little small for the 3500 but would be good for a tgp 3.1L or a 3100. It spools quick! I hit full boost (6psi haha) at like 2800 - 3000rpm. Lots of low-end torque that's for sure. I'm running obd1 ('7730), tune with TunerProRt and a Moates Ostrich2.0 and run $8F code.

Maybe try and find an Al flywheel and crankpulley to reduce MOI and rotating mass. I still dont think that clutch is going to be fun to drive. Thats just my own bias though. You may be able to handle it with ease.

Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight.

I'll keep my eye on this build. I'm curious to see how it turns out.

JoeCooley

------------------
1987 SE / Fastback - 3500 Turdbowd / '92 5-speed swap

No bandwagon here...

IP: Logged

Will
Member

Posts: 12834
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 233
Rate this member

Report this Post09-25-2010 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:
Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight.


I think a BMW E30 would be a great platform for a V6/60. The V6 would move the CG back compared to BMW's inliner (the cars are pretty front-heavy stock), is probably lighter (when equipped with aluminum heads), and fits better in the narrow engine compartment than a V8 because of the narrower bank angle.

And unlike Chevettes, E30's handle well.

Of course BMW's M20 engine is a monster when it's boosted, even if stroking it from 2.5 to 2.8 is the 13th Labor of Hercules.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-25-2010).]

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2010 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Will is on a BMW kick, just ignore him. (Actually, he's dern right)

 
quote
Originally posted by Rallaster:


I wish I had the knowledge to understand even half of what you said. Whoa.

LOL, I didn't think I was saying anything too out of the ordinary. I'll explain any/all of it if you want. I could go on forever! If you want to get really confused, talk advanced engine and suspension theory with Will up there!


 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:
I never got around to posting a build thread. The 3100 ran pretty good for about two weeks till I had some bad valvetrain issues caused by my ex-friend machinist who decided to fall in love with Crack while building my heads. Long story short, I didnt get to push the car too hard w/ 3100 in it. The $400 3500 was cheaper than new valves and gaskets and was an excuse to upgrade. The 3500 has been a blast though and is night and day with the 5 speed swap. The turbo is a Toyota CT26 w/ T04E compressor wheel upgrade. Its a little small for the 3500 but would be good for a tgp 3.1L or a 3100. It spools quick! I hit full boost (6psi haha) at like 2800 - 3000rpm. Lots of low-end torque that's for sure. I'm running obd1 ('7730), tune with TunerProRt and a Moates Ostrich2.0 and run $8F code.

Maybe try and find an Al flywheel and crankpulley to reduce MOI and rotating mass. I still dont think that clutch is going to be fun to drive. Thats just my own bias though. You may be able to handle it with ease.

Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight.

I'll keep my eye on this build. I'm curious to see how it turns out.

JoeCooley

Crack? Heads? Get it? ...sorry, that was bad.
Ouch, that really sucks! (for you and him.) Thanks for the info. Sounds like the 3500 was the way to go. 6 psi at 2800-3000 sounds like a slow spool to me, heh! I can't wait to find out how the S258 spools on the 3.1. I might have to go with Quad4 gearing or something, heh. That would be real bad for traction once it does spool, though.

Nice tuning setup, sounds familiar. I'll be switching to Code59, though. It's WAY more documented and supports 3-bar which I'll need.

The twin-disk setup comes with everything, flywheel and all. It has to match. While the flywheel isn't aluminum, it does have a low MOI for the same reason as the rest of it, the weight is kept toward the center. I don't think I'd gain anything useful from a smaller crank pulley, but I don't think anything else will be needed! Compared to the rotating mass of the current setup (and yours too), it will be very very 'light'.

Don't let me fool you, I'm very nervous about the manners of the clutch. I think it'll be very difficult to deal with (if I didn't make that clear yet). It'll help if Will and I make a larger slave cylinder like we're talking about, that will increase the available throw of the clutch pedal, making the engagement point somewhat less instant.
Even still, from what I understand, the analogy of a lightswitch is no joke. The Clutch Masters tech told me I'll have to spend many hours in a parking lot just to be able to drive it somewhat competently without stalling it everywhere. He did say that it's not so bad once you get used to it, but that takes a little while and it's still a lot rougher than any organic single will ever be. Though, this one has sintered bronze disks which are said to be less impossible than the sintered iron disks. They'll hold 'less' torque than the iron, but they'll hold every bit that I'll ever make.
I really don't want to have to go there, but I don't know of any 'regular' clutch for the 282 that will even come close to handling the 3200 on 30psi, and 30psi isn't negotiable. That will be fun to drive.

Thanks for the GL on the 3200. I've researched most of what I can research for now, but the current setup will dial me in further. I can't wait!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-26-2010).]

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post09-26-2010 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

In other other news, I'm looking for new wheels. I'm honing in on 17's for the front and either 17's or 18's for the rear. The keywords here are "light", "staggered" and "droolicious". I love the look of the VW wheels, but they aren't quite what I need. They'll be up for sale along with the Yoko S-drives when I find the new wheels.

Help me out here if you can...
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/082889.html

OBTW, new sig pic, I finally made my favorite pic sig-sized...

------------------

'10 Camaro LT/RS, 312hp V6 6-speed
'88 Fiero GT - coming soon! - Project MIDTRBO

The rest of my cars are for sale
There's no replacement for turbo placement

IP: Logged

bmwguru
Member

Posts: 4692
From: Howell, NJ USA
Registered: Sep 2006


Feedback score:    (38)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 131
Rate this member

Report this Post10-02-2010 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bmwguruClick Here to visit bmwguru's HomePageClick Here to Email bmwguruSend a Private Message to bmwguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Here are a few pictures to update this thread. The only things we have left to accomplish on this build are the wiring harness, refabricate the belt drive (I'm not happy with the end result), breather/pcv system, and battery. Also, we need to secure a few items and do some testing.









IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-04-2010 11:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Dave, I sent an email. Looking good for the most part.

I found out something annoying the other day. I can't get personalized "MIDTRBO" tags because my car is registered as historic. Small sacrifice, though, for getting to skip inspection and emissions altogether.
Ah well, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, just kind of a bummer since I've planned that from the beginning.

I've got kind of a secret R&D project that's very cool that I'm thinking heavily about implementing which will greatly benefit MIDTRBO in various areas, as well as others' builds. That's just a teaser for you... Full details if I go ahead, but it'll be a little while because it'll be moderately expensive.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-07-2010).]

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-09-2010 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Today I went to the MAFOA show at Lititz. I almost forgot how small Fieros are! It's been WAY too long, heh. It was nice meeting the 5 or so people I met there (tardiness and social anxiety ), and there were some really nice Fieros.

Afterward I drove over to Harrisburg and picked up the Quarter Master twin-disk setup (with the extra parts for a triple disk) from Coinage. The whole twin setup only weighs 16 lbs! IIRC, that's about the weight of a stock Getrag flywheel without the rest of the clutch, AND the weight of this one is all located near the axis of rotation. I'm going to shave even more weight off of that by upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate. That 3200 should rev like a literbike!

Oh, and here's a bump for the people I mentioned this thread to that sounded interested. *bump*

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-23-2010).]

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-23-2010 05:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Going through withdrawals again/still so I just have to bump my thread.
It should be very close now, when I talked to Dave last week he was planning on spending all day last Thursday working on it.

If anyone wants my 11-second AWD Talon (that needs work), act now and you can get it for $2000. You won't find that deal anywhere else. The tranny build alone cost $2400, and that was only about 2000 miles ago.

My beater truck is also for sale, practically for free, just needs the top-end gaskets replaced (which I have). I desperately need to make room.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/078820.html

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-23-2010).]

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post10-23-2010 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Going through withdrawals again/still so I just have to bump my thread.
It should be very close now, when I talked to Dave last week he was planning on spending all day last Thursday working on it.

If anyone wants my 11-second AWD Talon (that needs work), act now and you can get it for $2000. You won't find that deal anywhere else. The tranny build alone cost $2400, and that was only about 2000 miles ago.

My beater truck is also for sale, practically for free, just needs the top-end gaskets replaced (which I have). I desperately need to make room.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/078820.html



I'm anxious for you to get your Fiero back for you.. LMAO

I buy your Talon if I had the money, sounds like it could be a blast to drive.

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-24-2010 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

LOL

Yeah, the Talon is something else. 6000rpm AWD launches are a real kick in the butt, then it just keeps you planted into the seat. The front end gets real light through first and second and it exhibits a bit of torque steer even though half the power is going to the rear. It also handles very well.
It's a shame that I'm done messing with it, but the serious lack of torque below 3000rpm and that blatty inline-4 exhaust noise killed the deal, I never got over it.
Regardless, I had an amazing 6 years daily driving it, lots of fun.

(Edited for coherency)

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-25-2010).]

IP: Logged

elitopr
Member

Posts: 236
From: Orlando Fl, Ponce, PR (USA)
Registered: Dec 2006


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-24-2010 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for elitoprClick Here to visit elitopr's HomePageSend a Private Message to elitoprEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

the plenum throttle to the batery side nice idea!!!!!!!!!!! great

[This message has been edited by elitopr (edited 10-24-2010).]

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-27-2010 12:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks. I came up with that idea early on, but decided it would be too difficult to re-angle the throttle neck because cast aluminum is difficult to weld properly, so I forgot to even mention it to Dave as a possibility. Then Dave thought of it later on, and when I expressed my concerns he informed me about his super-welder guy who could do it without a problem. Done!

So we both thank you because it was both of our idea. I'm just glad it worked out that way.

IP: Logged

KurtAKX
Member

Posts: 4005
From: West Bloomfield, MI
Registered: Feb 2002


Feedback score:    (9)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 128
Rate this member

Report this Post10-27-2010 06:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

How come you guys didn't put an oil filler valve cover on the rear bank? Wouldn't that make life a lot easier?

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-27-2010 06:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Dogbone clearance issues. I don't mind it being up front.

IP: Logged

amflyer
Member

Posts: 1389
From: Westminster,Maryland
Registered: May 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-27-2010 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for amflyerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Why can't you get personalized plates I have them on my indy and they are historic tags! Someone is giving you wrong information.

------------------
1984 Indy Pace Car
President of Maryland Fiero Owners Club MFOC

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-27-2010 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Oh, hmm. The website said I was "unable to get personalized tags on this vehicle" when I tried to for the Fiero and the truck (both historic). It let me go forward with it when I tried it out on my 'regular' cars. I'll go bug the MVA about it, thanks for the info.

IP: Logged

ALLTRBO
Member

Posts: 2023
From: College Park, MD
Registered: Mar 2006


Feedback score: (4)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post10-28-2010 10:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ALLTRBOSend a Private Message to ALLTRBOEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
I've been going back and forth over and over about what I'm going to do about audio between MIDTRBO and the Camaro. I'm torn. I LOVE the bass, but it'll all add weight to the Fiero which I'm desperately trying to avoid. I was thinking about one 8" under the dash, or two 8's behind the seats, or the two 10's behind the seat. At this point I'm leaning toward the 10's again because I will love how they sound/feel, though they're the biggest and heaviest. :/

And now I'm back to the very slim 8's behind the seats. I think about weight and I want thin and light 8's, then I here my home audio system and really want the 10's. Then I think about the extra weight, and...

*sigh*

IP: Logged

Rallaster
Member

Posts: 9105
From: Indy southside, IN
Registered: Jul 2009


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 84
Rate this member

Report this Post10-28-2010 11:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RallasterSend a Private Message to RallasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

And now I'm back to the very slim 8's behind the seats. I think about weight and I want thin and light 8's, then I here my home audio system and really want the 10's. Then I think about the extra weight, and...

*sigh*


You want 10's. The additional weight is going to be negligible with the amount of power your Turbo 6 is going to be putting to the pavement.

/concern

IP: Logged

Previous Page | Next Page

This topic is 9 pages long:  1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9 
next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock