I want to say this here since it was too easy for it to get buried in the other thread: To everyone who directly and indirectly contributed to Tyler's Toy; Thank you for your amazing efforts and thank you for making not only him smile a lot, but me as well. I'm still baffled that everything came together so quickly to make his dream a reality. You all have my sincerest respect for what you've done.
Now on that note... I apologize for starting my build thread on Tyler's build day, I had no idea about any of it until after I posted this thread. Now, of course, just because it was his build weekend doesn't mean that the rest of PFF should have shut down, but if I had known I would have waited a little longer so as to not possibly detract from the moment at all. It's not like I didn't wait a year or two as it is, what's another couple of weeks? If I had been thinking clearer I would have posted this earlier as well.
Dave sent off the 3400 heads to the machine shop near his shop to be rebuilt. They are now about as good as new. Unfortunately they had to shave them down some. I didn't really want that done, but slightly higher compression is better than a leaky engine. Dave, you said the chambers CC'd between 28 and 28.5. I'd like more clarification on that. Do you have individual chamber measurements? Can you list them?
I didn't want the valve springs upgraded because they are only being pushed by a stock cam and I won't rev it real high, I'll save that for the real engine. For now these should be great, even with boost. If not, I'll upgrade.
Here they are all newish and sexy-like...
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-27-2009).]
Here's the TGP LG5 in its original form one last time before it got all butchered up... then made better.
Carbon and oil buildup: yummy.
The cylinders still have the cross-hatch as you can see in cylinders 1 and 3. That was a good thing to see considering that I have no idea of the mileage. I only know that Will pulled it all from a wrecked TGP in a local JY and forgot to check the mileage, or forgot what it was (I forget). *DOH* They don't look like much, but those are the strongest pistons that have ever come in a GM 60-degree V6. This engine will get full synthetic for the rest of its life, over time it should clean away the oil buildup. Lots of oil/filter changes ahead!
A side note: typically you don't want to switch to synthetic on a high mileage engine because it cleans the sludge buildup out and can "cause" oil leaks from the gaskets. It technically doesn't cause a leak, it just un-plugs the buildup around the gaskets that are keeping the old, hard gasket from letting the oil through. With this engine all of the seals and gaskets are being replaced so I won't have that problem. IMHO, synthetic is a must for longevity with a high-performance turbo vehicle which is driven as such.
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-27-2009).]
I just remembered that I had taken lifter valley reference pics of the Alero 3400 in the junkyard when I was pulling the heads. Unfortunately I only had my cell phone camera so the quality is poor, but I think they might be worth posting here...
Also, here's a pic of how messy my garage was before I got the car ready to send out. You can see various Fiero parts and the 3100 intake and valve covers, and the TGP 3.1 upper intake (upside down) as well.
We're closing in on the home stretch of prior-to-this-thread updates, but there are a few more. Maybe once I continue on with current progress this build will garner more interest? It seems to be relatively dead aside from my posts (thank you to those who have posted so far).
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-28-2009).]
They have been measured, but the values don't necessarily mean anything to any other engine. Differences like how much the heads were shaved, gasket thicknesses, and factory tolerances among a few other potential differences like rocker arm ratio etc. render them useless to someone else's Gen II/III. A few people on 60degreeV6.com have posted their specs but they were each different, and different than mine are as well.
For reference, mine were: Intake - 5.875" Exhaust - 6.200"
I realize that head shaving/block decking... will change the requirements for specific engines. I've been considering scrapping my iron heads and doing a gen 3 top swap too. This gives me a ball park for the pushrod measuement tool(s) I'll need.
Are you going to be using roller lifters in your build? or will you need to use a flat tappet cam? From looking at your pics of the lifter valleys it doesn't look to be possible to mount the factory lifter retainers and I also can't determine from the pics if the lifter bores are even long enough to properly support the factory roller lifters. I know the tgp block is a high nickel block, but if you can't use a roller cam is it still the best option? Just how much boost are you planning to run? Unless you're planning some outrageous boost levels couldn't you make the 3x00 block live and gain the benefits of the roller cam? Will the forged tgp crank drop in the 3x00 block? I know going that route wouldn't retain much of the tgp engine but if the 3x00 block has enough strength for your boost levels wouldn't it be worth it so you could go with a roller cam and all its benefits?
Originally posted by ALLTRBO: <snip>but the big improvement is the Mahle pistons. While still hyper eutectic (IIRC), they're stronger all around than any other 'stock' pistons, and have a deeper dish for lower compression as well.
<snip> When I build the really stout bottom end I'll use a Gen III block.
<snip>Really, though, as you can see from above, I originally planned on using the whole TGP engine, just with a custom turbo setup. Once I decided to change the top end, it was easier just to use the same block and swap top ends, and I get to keep the low compression which is about 8.75:1 with the Gen III heads. A 3100 has 9.6:1 as it comes, no good for 15-20 psi on this setup.
It is possible to adapt the roller lifter setup to the Gen II but to me its not worth the trouble when I'll be upgrading the whole thing before too long, so with the engine I'll be using the TGP flat tappet cam with the Gen III roller fulcrum rockers (1.6:1 instead of TGP 1.5:1 stamped rockers) which means there is some improvement in lift and rocker construction. It should work just fine for now.
Yes, the TGP crank is directly compatible with Gen III cranks from what I've read everyhwhere.
If I have typos or don't make sense, I apologize, the doc has me doped up on about 5 different meds right now and I can't see straight or still and my head is whacky. In fact, it took me about 30 minutes to post this.
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-09-2010).]
I've been waiting for clarification on a few things which I should find out soon, so I'll continue.
I had left the chronology with the block being stripped of its top end. Here are the head bolt holes being cleaned.
ARP head studs were installed. With moderate boost I don't want to play with blown gaskets all the time, and if I let that happen, then how could I burn a hole in some pistons and have an excuse to build the 'real' engine? Besides, these will transfer over to a Gen III block just the same, so its well-spent money.
At this point, the heads were installed then two of the bolt holes stripped out upon torquing! I have a few theories as to why that happened, but its neither here nor there because something had to be done about it. I had Dave install time-serts throughout. You know, if I really wanted a time-serted block I would have swapped in a Northstar! Ah well. Stronger is better, and with these, stronger it is. The piston tops were cleaned of their carbon as well.
Finally, it's starting to look like something cool! I had Dave paint the tranny low-gloss black, and the aluminum 3400 heads are dead-sexy. Eat your heart out, 3800SC swappers!
The heads were torqued to the recommended 71 ft/lbs, though I might think about increasing that to 80 when I retorque them after 500 miles. The head gaskets are Fel-Pro "Severe Duty" 3100 gaskets, .065" thick (pre-installed, I'll need to figure out a good way to get a compressed thickness measurement). Dave also installed a new timing chain and front-cover gaskets.
Looking a bit better now here, too...
This is the most current as far as the pictures go.
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-09-2010).]
Next, Dave measured for the pushrods with a Comp-Cams pushrod checker, and forwarded me the specs (previously mentioned) so I could order the custom-length pushrods through WOT Tech. And the most current progress is this: The pushrods don't fit! They are in fact the length that he forwarded to me, so no foul on WOT Tech's part (Actually I can't say enough good things about Ben's little 60*V6 business so far). Dave and crew are baffled by this, as the pushrod checker had fit perfectly with those measurements. He's thinking that maybe the lifters collapsed, but it doesn't make sense as to why that would happen in a few weeks time, when the engine sat for years without being ran at all. I don't have any idea, but this coming week he's going to diagnose the problem.
Also, he plans to start on the 'really' cool parts this coming week, the turbo headers! I tossed about between mild steel and stainless. Mild is less prone to cracking than the common 304 grade of SS, but 321 SS is much better in this regard, and will last much longer. I found someone who makes Gen III header flanges in SS, but won't do 321. With the thermal-cycling this will be going through I won't accept 304 SS, so mild steel it is. I ordered (and Dave has received) 3/8" thick mild steel flanges from WOT Tech. I would have preferred 1/2" thick flanges as the other guy would have made them, but the ARP header studs won't accommodate that thickness.
The entire hot-side will be ceramic coated inside and out, that's necessary for this type of setup IMO because of the reduced thermal stresses all around. Unfortunately the mild steel will still eventually rust through the ceramic coating, but not nearly to the degree it would if left bare.
The tubing wall thickness will be a minimum of .065", thicker is better. That hasn't been ordered yet. More fun stuff to come...
I'll be looking into the pushrod issue within the next 48 hours. It is not like they are a few thousandths off, they are more like 1/8" too short. I'll figure it out...just need a few quiet minutes to see what had happened with the measurement. I'm very excited to see this project take to life and I'm glad Alltrbo let me be a part of it. Dave
Home sick again , and the truck broke down to boot. (Darnit, I need a turbo Fiero to drive) So... Here's another PS. This is based on SOULCRUSHER's awesome GT, with a few tweaks and a color change of course. I ran out of patience in trying to find a pic of the proper wheels at that angle, so I left his on there. I do the color changes "manually" because I actually use Paint Shop Pro 9 instead of Photoshop, this takes forever.
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-12-2010).]
x-thumpr-x, I'm almost finished with your indirect request. However, my computer had crashed and lost the right color so I'm going to have to match that up, and it will take some time. Life is incredibly busy for the time being.
As for MIDTRBO, stay tuned. Very awesome things are happening right now.
Just thought I'd show where the top color is coming from. I've wanted a ZX-10R since they came out, and back in August this brand new Candy Plasma Blue one with a steep discount sealed the deal!
It's slightly modded now, and I don't think I'll EVER own anything so insanely fast beyond this. MIDTRBO will be close though (yeah right). To put it into perspective, FieroX can't keep up in the 1/4 mile (even with the bike on stock tires) and this will easily outhandle his car, especially with his drag slicks installed. This bike makes 60 MORE horsepower (200hp) than a stock V6 Fiero, and weighs only 1/6th as much as one!
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-24-2010).]
I bought the lifters from Crane Cams. Hopefully they're as quality as they claim. I'm waiting on the rest of the pictures from Dave, then I'll post them all up.
I'm very torn open inside right now, being ripped apart from the opposing internal forces. I have too many irons in the fire, but I want to keep them there! Have a looksee if you haven't. I just added more pics. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/071622.html
Man, you guys really don't care unless there are PICS, huh? Okay, I'll give in... Unfortunately it took me forever to save and resize all of the pics and it's way past bedtime, and I have work tomorrow. So, I can only leave you with this for now:
Here's what came out of the engine. If you look closely you can see that the plungers aren't even touching the retaining clips, they should be because of the internal springs. This is caused by either really worn internal springs (collapsed) or lots of crud gunking them up too much to move freely. Either way, no good, and I won't use them. It's weird, Dave had taken the pushrod measurements on all cylinders and they were all consistent. Then, as mentioned, he got the pushrods and noticed his measurements were way off. This is why. Since I ordered the new lifters (should be there tomorrow), everything internally should be buttoned up soon. Hopefully his first measurements were accurate to good lifters, and they'll be the correct ones. If not, new pushrods will have to be ordered again.
This and a few other issues are putting the overall integrity of the shortblock in question, hopefully it'll run just fine, with these new parts. If not, I have a backup plan for another "throwaway" shortblock until I build my serious shortblock, in which case no TGP parts will be left. Lets hope it doesn't come to that, yet.
More pics to come, the hot-side of the turbo setup is nearly complete. Good night...
These were the initial -mock up- stage of the logs. We remade the intake manifold to clear the strut towers. I think Steven will print the pic and roll around naked on top of it....Just Kidding.....it came out that good! More pics will be emailed tomorrow. The logs, Y-pipe, wastegate, low mount alternator and intake are completed and exhaust is ready to be sent to Jet Hot. Not too shabby for 14 hours at the Haus today. Dave
Nice looking setup on the mainifolds so far, Is the intake going to stay facing that way?
Yes, we turned the intake around and had to cut the neck off and reweld it to give it a different angle (not pictured yet). You have to do a double take on the intake to be able to tell that it was ever touched. Now the intercooler setup will be able to be made the way Alltrbo has specifies.
Heck, I can't even tell that the location moved at all.
Does it have enough clearance to account for engine movement? Unless I'm thinking bass-ackwards, the engine tries to rotate toward the rear of the car under launch/acceleration/shifting (I know it's not exactly an L98 with flimsy rubber mounts, but it will still move). In addition, is there enough clearance still for a 2.5" i.d. silicone coupling (they're thick) to a 2.5" o.d. IC pipe (without a severe bend)? One thing you can't account for right now is a larger throttlebody (62mm i.d. max), but if the body is slightly larger, would there be enough room still?
Just some concerns from looking at it. If you've thought all that through then move along, I don't want to hold you up! Other than that, I do think it'll look perfect with a black crinkle powdercoated finish, topped with blue numbers/letters (eventually).
As a quick note to everyone: I originally wanted the intake to be turned around when I first conceived the Gen III top end swap, but quickly figured out the strut tower clearance issues. Knowing that I personally can't even begin to comprehend welding cast aluminum with my MIG setup (even with my spool-gun) , I threw the idea out and didn't even think about mentioning it to Dave. When he saw firsthand how tight the turbo would be with the TB on the same side, he asked about turning it around. Well needless to say, his welding guy had no problem with it, so there it is. Providing that it has all the clearance it'll ever need, that is perfect!
Still more explanation about the rest of it later, I need to get back to work.
P.S. Since the car will be using a '730 ECU, it won't be SFI (Sequential Fuel Injection) anymore, so I hereby designate SFI as Single Forced Induction (until I, or you folks, can think of something better. )
[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 02-03-2010).]
Aside from the texture difference and a few very minute details, no one would be able to tell it was reworked. And yes, it looks 100x better without the EGR stuff. Awesome job guys!
Unfortunately I'm home feeling like hell again, I left early. This is not the week to be out at all.
Now that the intake is oriented 'properly', some of the Fiero connections will work easier, the "3100 SFI" faces the right way (sweet), and the intercooler plumbing will be easy as pie. I'm going to place the air/water IC in the stock cat location, and so the pipes will simply route down there, then over and up to the TB. I plan on doing the water/air setup myself, so I wasn't originally going to have Dave install a BOV since I would have to change the piping anyway, but now that its going to go the same route no matter what, I'm having him install a BOV on the IC piping as well. It's a Synapse Engineering "Synchronic" BOV, a new style of BOV that's supposed to be the best on the market right now, it has rave reviews from users. It's designed to actually work, not just to sound cool, and is configurable and adjustable to many setups (there's more to a BOV than one might think).
The logs aren't exactly as I specified (I had updated it from the drawing earlier), but much less labor intensive and they'll work just about as well this way. My main concern with everything is cracking because of the high thermal cycling this setup will encounter (open track days and such), and I also plan on driving it anywhere from 0* with snow on the ground to 120* in the Arizona heat and everything in between, when needed. It's not my only car, but I want a car that will withstand every type of condition as well as a (newer) factory vehicle. I'm somewhat concerned that my (minimum) specified .065" wall thickness will not be enough, but it's thicker than most non-turbo headers. We shall see.
The lack of a flex section on the Y-pipe is because I hear as many bad things about them as good things. They create two more welded joints to possibly fail and they sometimes crack underneath the braid at the actual flex points. I think it will be okay in that respect as it's not a 'tight' Y-pipe and so has a tiny bit of strain relief built in, and the way the two-bolt flanges to the log manifolds are oriented gives it a tiny bit more, because the gaskets in there are compressible. At any rate, if it cracks on me, I will weld it back up and probably add a flex section.
I'm having Dave cut the manifold to head flanges in between each primary because this gives that area some strain relief and reduces the chance of the manifolds cracking. Of course all of this will also be ceramic coated inside and out with Jet Hot's "Jet Hot 2000" coating in black, which is good for up to 2450*. The turbine housing will also be coated in the same, but only the outside. That will also get a turbine blanket wrapped around it.
The wastegate is the ever-popular Tial 38mm. Its location (second to last and last pic in my picture post above) is a compromise. I wanted it angled toward the airflow, not doing this will sometimes cause boost creep. However, without some fancy fabrication and other space compromises, and another couple places to crack, this is the best compromise. I've definitely seen some wastegates in much worse locations, it 'should' be fine for this setup. Studs are welded onto the flange and the flange is welded directly to the 'Y' section.
The turbo will be braced from underneath to hold its weight. The bracket design is not finalized, but Dave has something cool in mind.
These guys are really kicking butt. The main components are coming together, I'm really getting excited now!