As I see it, the ecotec will go much farther than the 3800 series motors. Granted stock for stock probably not, unless they get pushed in corners then I think the weight difference will really shine. With the torque not as low as it is with the bigger motors the trannys should hold up more, also. I can say this With all the weight of the ecotec in the back of my fiero it has a nice front rake that was not there when i had the 3800 in there.
I think we should start a revolution! Wooo Ecotec for the win!!!
All you have to do is look at the GM drag racing team to know that the Eco is capable of incredible power. Looking at the GM build book makes it even easier to see that they will become more popular. Wonder how long it will take for someone to have a "kit" to make it more accessible by the average owner?
Honestly, with the help of the other ecotec guys here, I'd like to eventually attempt a few different kit levels, or at least offer a parts list of what you should get for the swap.
The issue at hand, at this point, is getting any of the newer VVT ecotecs to work well with a (relatively) easy-to-do kit. I think the majority of my time working on the Fiero will be R&D rather than actual design.
Curious why you went with such a small turbo as the TD04 13T (WRX turbo). It will spool pretty quick but it cant hold boost well and has been known to boost creep. You could send it to Jerry at www.boostplanet.com to get his monster port. That would help alot. Anyway, nice progress. Glad to see its coming along. What are you using to trigger the meth injection and is it progressive? If not, look into SMC enterprises progressive controller. I used it on my old 420hp WRX with great results.
------------------ 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Nurburgring WARRIOR!!!! I survived the "Green Hell".
actually the turbo choice was based on this :it originally was designed to feed a 2.0 litre motor ,mines a 2.2 ,not much difference in size ,and it looked easy to install .not much science involved there .this is actually a big 16g from turbochargers .com .it is designed to be an upgrade to a stock WRX .it spools up really quick and what is turbo lag anyway?there is no lag here. the main drawback doing it the way i have is that you have to use an oil scavenger pump .i have to run it for 20 seconds before and after driving or else i put down a 007 style smoke screen. the bost system is progressive ,a snow unit with an electronic boost control .you set the start spray and the full pressure spray at boost levels you pick yourself .i start at 3 and full on is 6 .this is a bit excessive until i get my bigger injectors . i am amazed at how well the stock computer handles everything .it is very civilised to drive when you dont have your foot in it . and it does handle a lot better .i think between the lighter weight of the motor and the loss of a lot of ancillary devices (the original exhaust system and assorted plumbing ,the guage cluster weighed 10 lbs to about 1/2 lb for the cavalier etc) i have shaved off around 150 lbs .when i do an acceleration run ,the car sits dead flat ,no up and down motion .i guess i cant really say how it would perform with stock suspension ,because i have tubulars and coilovers all the way around . there are kit pieces available to make it all simple .his name is roger thelin ,he had a car at daytona this year .contact is kmunson56 on pff .thanks for posting .
So you are going to stick with the stock ECU to run it? How much boost do you plan on running? I'm not sure if you have the older non VVT ecotec or not but if you have the newer one, I would have assumed the Solstice GXP ECU would have been the one to go with. Personally a piggy-back or stand alone is the way to go. Also be very careful it doesnt take much det to destroy a ring land on non-forged pistons.
------------------ 2005 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Nurburgring WARRIOR!!!! I survived the "Green Hell".
2004 non VVT 2.2 litre .the only VVT models are the 2.4 and the 2.0 turbo motor.i havent seen a 2.2 listed as VVT yet .i am planning on 10 -12-psi boost this year and the stock ecu looks like it will handle it .next year i am getting the hahn racecraft portfueler system .it has its own controller .
the bigger fuel injectors and the aeromotive FPR (it increases fuel pressure as boost goes up) should handle the need for more fuel .i have no way to retard timing right now .i take things in small steps though .i havent watched my boost guage during a 0-60 run but during a throttle roll on, it seems to be building a little more than 8 psi. i will put in the bigger injectors ,do some throttle roll ons and see where the detonation occurs at present boost levels .i think at 8 psi ,i wont have any problems (it doesnt ping that much now ,but i dont want to blow the motor so i have not tried a 1/4 mile run yet .hahn racecraft stage 2 kit includes a 100 psi pump , 6:1 FPR ,and bigger injectors .they said it would easily handle 10 psi .i am hoping that my methanol injection will be the added ingredient to the setup i already have (when the injectors arrive) .it is not hard to control detonation when the engine is only 18 iches behind your ears .you hear it start to knock and you back off the throttle .its always disapointing but then you plan your next step .so far i am happy with my progress . i only know about hp tuners as a method to control spark timing and injector flow and it is available for the 2004 cavalier ecotec that is in my car .i just dont want to spend that money unless i have to .the hahn racecraft port fueler system is around 2000.00 and it will handle boost levels above 20 psi but then you have to look at what the con rods will handle (i am told 350 hp with a turbo and no nitrous) and i am sure head gaskets will start blowing long before 20 psi . a piggy back controller might be the answer for spark retard but i dont know what is even available .i will find out what i need on friday ,my injectors should be here thursday.thanks for posting .
Get some way to reduce ignition advance under boost and you'd be well on your way to control det. When tuning you want to nail the AFR to a set number (say 11.5-11.8 @ WOT) and then dial in as much ignition advance as the engine will tolerate w/o knock. I'm sure you know if you are running meth or alcohol your wideband will need to be recalculated for stoichiometric. Dont just count on the ECU's ability for knock control. Most N/A engines converted to forced induction cant react fast enough to prevent damage. My evo has a fantastic knock control system and has saved many a 4G63 from poor tunes. You may want to pick up a knock link because if you can hear knock... its pretty bad.
[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 04-25-2007).]
well its friday and the mail came and still no new injectors .so developement work on the motor is stalled for now.i tried to fix my remote trunk release today but that was a nogo too.replaced the switch and it still doesnt work .the solinoid works when i hotwire it .i tried finding the relay that is in this circuit but i ended up with the wrong one .any one know how many wires connect to that relay ,and an exact location? i wanted to show a few pics of my suspension and brakes .i have the RCC 11" brake kit and coilover kit with tubular a arms in the back and held sport suspension with RCC11" brakes .the pics show the original 8" 260lb springs on the front .i changed to 10" 300lb springs after because i found the 8" springs bottomed out .if you are going with 8" springs in the front you need a spring rate of 400 lbs to stop bottoming out . the car corners very well ,no diving on braking or nose up accelaration .it still jumps around a bit on bumpy roads but most fieros do this as soon as you put on wide tires . tres are kumho ecstas 205/45/16 front and245/50/16 rears .no snap throttle oversteer problem with this combo .car is very neutral handling .i can induce oversteer with extra throttle .
i can only give you my reasons ,here they are : it is an in production motor and readily available new or used state of the art 4 valve dohc design aluminum block and head with steel liners ,much lighter(100 -125 lbs)than the 2.8 more power than the 2.8 ,even without mods easily modified to whatever horsepower level you want use the tranny that it came with and get a complete new drivetrain that is much stronger than anything a fiero came with .
for me ,this has been a fun project that has greatly improved the speed ,handling ,and reliability of the car .it already went pretty fast without the turbo ,but i cant resist seeing how far i can take this car .as far as an all out performance motor ,the new 2.0 turbo motor comes with forged rods ,steel crank ,VVT .but it only comes in the solstice/skye so dont expect to get one at a wreckers soon .the 2.0 supercharged motors have the strong bottom end but no VVT.as far as i know ,the 2.4 motor shares the 2.2's bad points:the powdered metal rods and cast iron crank .to me the extra cost and work involved with this motor is not worth it to just get VVT .it is 177 hp stock ,but a 2.2 is a cold air intake and headers away from that already .
I believe the 2.4 has the forged internals but the 2.2 injectors.
I love the ecotec, bascially what WTFB said, this motor is the 350 of its time and can be upgraded to any power level you want.
WTFB, you will love those Kumhos, same as I have but i only have 205s all the way around once those burn up Ill go for 225 or 235 if i can fit em.
As far as mine goes, I am on the final steps of my spacer setup which is very well done So far my entire tranny/drivetrain price is up to $336 dollars plus about 20+ hours on the laythe and mill (dont want to imagine it if a machine shop would be doing the spacer)
Looking hot, you need to try and make the GM-Small Car Bash July 27th, I would love to meet you and see your fiero!
i am actually off work that day .is that event any where near detroit?i am three hours away from detroit .got my bigger injectors today . the stock harness does not fit the accell injectors .the clips fit though and length is fine .i am making a temporary harness setup so i can run until i can find a made up harness .cobalt addiction has one for 49.00 i think it should be the same as a cavalier but i have to phone and confirm . another ecotec advantage is it only takes 10 minutes to remove the fuel rail and injectors .try that on a 2.8 ,you are in for an afternoon's work .
Hmm for some reason I thought you where no where near Michigan. Its in Mansfield Ohio, your closer to it than me lol. Im going to be spending the weekend down there, sinces its a huge party!
I was given 3 different 2.2 ecotec fuel rails and every single one of them is different so dont be to sure that the wiring is the same.
my home made harness is working perfectly so i think i will just save the 50 bucks .i am north of detroit so mansfield will be to far cause i have to work the next day .i want to take this car to a fiero related event this year but the dates dont match up with work much so far .i installed the new injectors ,added a cherry bomb muffler and i got some hydraulic return line to replace the heater hose i have been using as a oil return line .the car is noticeably queter now and i almost have the detonation solved .if i can up the fuel pressure another 5 psi (at 60psi now ,stock was 56 iirc ).i am raising it a bit at a time so i dont get to a flooding situation .the detonation starts at 5500 in third gear now but i think if i do a standing start run with the water meth flowing full on i might be able to do a quarter mile run .pics later .
You gotta try and get that weekend off! Its going to be a blast. There is also a NOPI event at Milian this year and a few others at US131 which is South of Grand Rapids. I plan on making as much as I can.
Get some videos if you can or some action shots
Does it sound good with a cherry bomb? I have one left over from my 3800 and I also have a Dynamax muffler, I can choose outta those too. Either way I cannot wait to see more pics.
The spacer is finished, and I commence putting it all back together, the clutch works much easier that it did with my 3800. Also I suggest if you can get a Fidanza Lightweight flywheel for yours, its saweet!
the cherry bomb and the extra 4 feet or so of pipe have toned it down so it is just the way i like it .the cherry bomb isnt much more than a straight tube wrapped in fibreglass .without the turbo i think it would be way loud.i used the cherry bomb because it tucks underneath really well.there is room for a normal muffler ,but it needs to be centre in centre out and i only had offsets lying around .but i was surprised at how nice it sounds .i would post a video but i dont own a camcorder . i wish i could get that weekend off but i am duty staff at a nuclear power plant and we had to pick our holidays in advance .maybe next year.
the bigger fuel injectors did the trick i can now run the 1/4 without detonation .i only got a chance to do one run. i blew the start (bogged it again ) 0-60 was slow , 6.69 secs ,and i missed the 4-5 shift .i also coasted after i hit 90 mph cause i thought i had covered the 1/4 and then the red light came on .so pretty poor execution on my part but i still did 14.95 @95 mph .not bad for a first try and i think as is i can get down to the 13's.it runs a little rough at slow speeds now until it warms up.i think i can now dial back the fuel pressure a bit to solve that problem .i had the day off wednsday and the reason i only did one run was i could not believe all the the people out on the roads .i wont do a run unles i can find an empty road ,and it was a nice day so i think a lot of people were playing hooky from work .days off during the week usally mean not many people out and about but not wedsnday .but good progress was made .
i got in another run with the bigger injectors .this time i dropped the clutch at2000 rpm ,a little spin and off i went .i set the g tech for a 6000 redline so i wouldnt hit the rev limiter .the results were much better;
i think i can get into the 13's in the next run or three .using the 6000 redline cost me a bit of momentum ,i could see by the horse power result .but my 1/4 mile acceleration curve was a nice curve without flat spots like my previous runs .so the shifts were good .i am getting more summit goodies next week .100 psi pump and vortech 6:1 mechanical fmu .i want the 12's !
i solved the detonation problem .pretty simple fix .i had set my meth injection to maximum at 8 psi .this was too high .i set it to start at 2 psi and maximum at 5 psi and no more detonation during 4th or 5th throttle roll ons .uses a lot more washer fluid now but no more worries about connecting rods .i still have a slightly rough idle and it doesnt run smooth until it warms up but i am hoping to fix that with the fmu and a lower idle fuel pressure .but the big improvement now is that i can put my foot in it any time without worry about detonation.
i solved the detonation problem .pretty simple fix .i had set my meth injection to maximum at 8 psi .this was too high .i set it to start at 2 psi and maximum at 5 psi and no more detonation during 4th or 5th throttle roll ons .uses a lot more washer fluid now but no more worries about connecting rods .i still have a slightly rough idle and it doesnt run smooth until it warms up but i am hoping to fix that with the fmu and a lower idle fuel pressure .but the big improvement now is that i can put my foot in it any time without worry about detonation.
What H2O injection system are you useing? The last time I looked at them the duty cycle was only like 60 seconds.
i am using a snow stage 2 system .it is electronicaly controlled with a boost reference point .it will continue to send in water meth as long as boost levels are above or at the set points .if i spent a minute at full throttle ,around here i would run out of road.
What boost setting are you running? Be carefull posting GTech #'s people get really retarded about things like that for some reason. Nice to see a turbo eco running. Let us know when you get some track times so you can get in the 1/4 mile database.
it is set the way it came,watching the boost guage i see about 8-9 psi .i hope to go down to grand bend ont soon so i can post a slip on the list .thanks for the post .
today i went to goderich and back and i watched the boost guage as much as i could (its mounted in the centre consule til i figure out where i really want it located).i did not see it go higher than 8 psi .it also never goes to the vacuum side ,lowest reading is 0 no matter what .so i think the waste gate is a stock subaru item .in my present state of tune ,i cant use any more than 8 psi safely anyway so i wont get a boost controller till next year .i was looking at gm's ecotec build book today and the stock head gasket is good for 350 hp .that was one thing i was worried about ,since i dont plan on opening this engine up and changing things inside .my goal is 300 hp and it looks like that is do able with stock internals . what i thought was my map sensor that i relocated to the intake pipe was actually the IAT sensor .so my map sensor is still in the stock position .since they are not designed to read boost (or anything other than vacuum as far as i know ) this might be the cause of my rough idle .i am going to try and relocate it to the intake pipe and see how that works .i may just buy another one so i can just swap it back if it doesnt help the rough idle .i can live with the idle the way it is if i have to ,but the goal is to be fast and smooth . as far as i know this is a list of running ecotec powered fieros on pff . 1.deejayee BC Canada 2.wftb ontario Canada 3.rodo pennsylvania (i think) 4.fosgatecavy 98 michigan roger thelin has a running car and he is also selling kits .but he hasnt posted directly on pff yet that i know of .his # is 352 375 8259 for anyone interested in the most complete kit available as of this writing .this is for the 2.2 and f23 5 speed . if anyone else knows of any other running ecotec fieros feel free to post .i want first hand reports though ,not friend of a friend .thanks for reading
Hey wftb, your build is looking awesome bro! You've done what I'm still attempting to do. You rock!!!
A quick question for you regarding the coolant. Do you have any pics of how you ran the lines for the turbo's coolant?
I'm trying to get some ideas rolling for how to do it on my setup. I was thinking of doing a separate subsystem for it that I can patch an air-to-water intercooler into later on if I want to ditch the air-to-air setup, but another idea I had was patching the turbo into the heater hose hookups cause they're right there by the exhaust, and running a heat exchanger in between the turbo and the heater core. What's your opinion?
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class Patrol Squadron Ten United States Navy
all i did was t off of each line to the heater core .not perfect but it seems to circulate ok .i tried going through the turbo on the way to the heater but for some reason i did not get flow that way .i have about 500 miles so far and no problems.
all i did was t off of each line to the heater core .not perfect but it seems to circulate ok .i tried going through the turbo on the way to the heater but for some reason i did not get flow that way .i have about 500 miles so far and no problems.
Ok, now this jogs my curiosity, cause now you have me thinking that the heater core grabs coolant on the cold side of things rather than the hot... is this the case? I always thought the heater core grabbed coolant on the hot side (thus the "heater core" term), and I'd have to use a secondary heat exchanger to cool the coolant down enough to run it to the turbo.
And I can understand why you didn't get flow with one single coolant loop. It's kinda like trying to lift a box at the middle with one hand under the other vs. lifting with one hand on each side of the box.
Plus it's harder to get air out with one continuous loop, so your method is better for that as well.
------------------ Petty Officer Michael C Casaceli Aircraft Electronics Technician Second Class AIMD Brunswick (2007-present) Patrol Squadron Ten (2003-2007) United States Navy
Just want to offer my sincerest good wishes for a successful new technolgy swap. Those Ecotecs engines do have the potential to make incredible power. I don't believe that it is yet a popular swap but it might be soon.
thanks for all the comments everyone .the piping going to the heater core does come out warm but never hotter than operating temps (in my cars case , 90* C ) .so with the good flow i seem to be getting ,this should keep the turbo at close to the same temp as the engine .i think this is what you want anyway so i am happy with it as is .
once those burn up Ill go for 225 or 235 if i can fit em. 
So far my entire tranny/drivetrain price is up to $336 dollars plus about 20+ hours on the laythe and mill (dont want to imagine it if a machine shop would be doing the spacer)
