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ecotec swap by wftb
Started on: 11-16-2006 10:44 PM
Replies: 897 (72037 views)
Last post by: wftb on 09-27-2018 04:21 PM
wftb
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Report this Post08-07-2018 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the post , lots of good stuff there. I have been following your build thread for a while and it looks good.

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longjonsilver
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quote
Originally posted by wftb:
I decided early on that I did not want the weight of a 3800. I wanted a handling car and you need a lighter motor to do that. If you follow the Fiero LeMons/Chump car threads and watch the videos you will see all of the v6 powered cars spinning out from time to time. My car does not do that, it is completely neutral. As I hit the limit, all four tires will slide but the rear will not slide out nor does the front plow. You just end up taking a wider arc that can be easily corrected by dropping the throttle or a tap on the brakes.


i have followed this thread for a few years now. It seems like few on this forum have much if any concern about weight. It is so refreshing to hear someone discuss the effects of weight. Of course you can offset weight with more HP in acceleration, but HP does not affect handling - weight does. There is no substitute for less weight in the rear of the Fiero. i have moved my battery to the front, taken out the AC compressor and the resonator/balance weight on the cradle. The more i remove weight from the rear and the more i add to the front, the better she handles. i have gone so far as to weight the gen 2 headlight motors and compare them with the gen 1. The gen 2 motors are 40gm heavier with stock gears, and with the Rodney Dickman brass gears, they are 200gm heavier.

In addition, i really like the way you have set up your engine for great HP and tork. Perhaps if the gages thing is resolved, i will do an Ecotec swap rather than a 3800SC, but for now, my duke runs good, so why change it?

jon

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wftb
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Report this Post08-24-2018 09:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for the post I like your comments. I think the thing that will make swaps like the ecotec popular will be affordable standalone engine management systems. But for somebody like me that does not care about stock gauges it is not hard to make the stock cavalier/sunfire/cobalt etc Ecm/bcm work in a Fiero or any other car for that matter. There is a thread on the locostusa forum about an ecotec powered Volvo P1800. http://locostusa.com/forums...pic.php?f=36&t=16309 If you are going to mod a Fiero, you need to think of it more like a rolling chassis and less like a complete car. Put in whatever you want and make it all yours. To me the only other alternative is to do a restoration to factory stock. My car was too far gone to do that to(rust etc) but I have had a lot of fun doing mods. It is my hobby car and I will never stop changing things.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 08-24-2018).]

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longjonsilver
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quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Thanks for the post I like your comments. I think the thing that will make swaps like the ecotec popular will be affordable standalone engine management systems. But for somebody like me that does not care about stock gauges it is not hard to make the stock cavalier/sunfire/cobalt etc Ecm/bcm work in a Fiero or any other car for that matter. There is a thread on the locostusa forum about an ecotec powered Volvo P1800. http://locostusa.com/forums...pic.php?f=36&t=16309 If you are going to mod a Fiero, you need to think of it more like a rolling chassis and less like a complete car. Put in whatever you want and make it all yours. To me the only other alternative is to do a restoration to factory stock.



i have no rust on my car. i decided a long time ago that stock was not the way i wanted to go, but i don't look forward to massive amounts of work either. Handling is very important to me, and almost all my mods have had to do with handling - poly everywhere, rebuilt steering column, steering rack. In that light i do my own alignments with string, ruler, bungies, and levels. i put in the max camber on the rear, and toe of 8mm in the 42" of the levels on the rear. i just got thru checking and adjusting my rear alignment. A few days of driving to let it set and then i will do the front. i will let the early adopters iron out the details on the ecotec swap and then i will follow along.
jon

ps thanks for the link, lots of good reading there

------------------
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun! 3800 SC swap to come!

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Frenchrafe
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Report this Post08-27-2018 04:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Interesting thread this one👍
I agree about the weight of a 3800, especially when you have the turbo hanging off the rear like mine!
My car is 500kg at the front and 800kg at the rear!
This makes cornering at the track a little bit touchy, but I'm used to it (and I run very sticky tyres!), most of the time😵😨
A lighter engine is better for handling and overall car response.
Regards, Rafe
------------------
'87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. Sticky tyres. Driven hard!

[This message has been edited by Frenchrafe (edited 08-27-2018).]

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longjonsilver
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quote
Originally posted by Frenchrafe:
I agree about the weight of a 3800, especially when you have the turbo hanging off the rear like mine!
My car is 500kg at the front and 800kg at the rear!


Well, lets see 1300 Kg is 2860 lbs. i guess that is about right. Seems that the fastback is heavier than the notchie. But a 38% front 62% rear weight distribution is crazy rear heavy. i understand that the factory weight distribution (which year model???) is 44% front 56% rear. i figure roughly that moving the battery to the front moves 2% from rear to front so with that simple mod maybe a 46% 54% balance can be achieved. (OK maybe that is an exaggeration.)

When i did my conversion from the bumperpad facias to the GT aero facias, i did not use the steel in the sides for the rocker panels or the aero moldings above it. i left the supports out of the rocker panels because the GT rocker panel is only 1 cm wider - why put some steel in there for just that difference. The rocker without steel in it is nice and solid. Likewise with the aero panels above the rocker, i glued them in. Glue has to be lighter than steel. The steel for the rockers and door moldings weighs 4.6 lbs, and that doesn't include the steel in front or behind the door. Every little bit helps.

i notice that the car seems to handle better when the sun roof is stored in the front - which is where it is most of the time as i like the open feeling. Which brings up another topic, i have never heard many complaints about the handling of the stock vehicle at speed. When my 84 was stock, it was plainly dangerous to drive at speed, 110km/h as the steering wheel would take maybe 30degrees each way to make the car respond to stay in the freeway lane. So i put weight in the front - tire chains to start, then moved the battery, then took out the AC compressor from the rear. This made the steering wheel response better, maybe 20 degrees. The vent for the front really made the car handle better at speed, but without the other mods, i wonder. Now the car has about a 10 degree response to keep the car in the lane on the freeway. Now i feel completely safe at 120 km/h. But i wonder if a splitter would make the car handle even better at speed?

Does anybody know the true weight of the ecotec motor with and without trans?

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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wftb
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Report this Post08-30-2018 02:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

This is one of many threads dealing with engine weights. I don't know how accurate they are. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089287.html As weighed at the 30th show, my car was 2790lbs with a full tank of gas. That is 44% front 56% rear .It is now 44lbs lighter , mostly removed from the back. But I have no access to wheel scales so I do not know the distribution as it sits now.

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Report this Post08-30-2018 03:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:

Well, lets see 1300 Kg is 2860 lbs. i guess that is about right. Seems that the fastback is heavier than the notchie. But a 38% front 62% rear weight distribution is crazy rear heavy.



In fact my car is heavier at the front - my mistake!
This is the copy of my "Contrôle technique" (MOT for the British, don't know what you call it in the USA? Inspection?)


So the car weighs 1389kg with about 42% front and 58% rear.

I will be thinking about battery up front etc to try and even it out. And yes, they don't handle super great at high speeds - that's the reason we call it "white knuckle driving"!
I set mine up to be higher by 3 or 4cm at the rear so the nose is down more. Seems to help a bit.

Rafe

------------------
'87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. Sticky tyres. Driven hard!

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longjonsilver
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So let me get this straight, the Iron Duke weighs 350 lbs, the 60 degree V6 (L44) weighs 362 lbs, the base Ecotec weighs 307 lbs, the supercharged Ecotec weighs 330 lbs and the turbocharged Ecotec weighs 360 lbs.

The stock Fiero auto is 125 lbs and the manual transaxles are 74 lbs for the 4-spd and 78 lbs for the 5-spd. The F23 weighs 112 lbs and the F40 weighs 124 lbs

So my stock duke with the 4 speed tranny weighs 428 lbs (without flywheel and clutch)

If i put in an Ecotec N/A with the F23 my car will LOSE 11 lbs- the combo will weigh 419 lbs (without flywheel and clutch)

If i put a turbo Ecotec in with the F40 my car will gain 56 lbs - the combo will weigh 484 lbs (without flywheel and clutch)

If i put in a 3800 S/C and keep my 4 speed tranny it will weigh 448 + 74 = 522 lbs (without flywheel and clutch) for a gain of 94 lbs.

THIS makes my decision a lot easier, remembering that ALL of this weight will be in the rear. Can the intercooler (does it have one) be placed in the front?

i weighed my catalytic converter that i removed several years ago and it weighed 14 lbs. i plan on hollowing it out and if i need to add a cat, i will have one ready ;-)

jon

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

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wftb
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Report this Post08-30-2018 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The accuracy of the link I posted is up for debate. If you do a search you will find 15 threads with varying weights. I have my doubts that a stock 2.2 ecotec weighs 307 lbs. Some of the v6's are listed at close to the same weight. I do not have a scale to weigh engines with but moving the ecotec around my garage on an engine stand is a piece of cake compared to a 2.8 v6. I have always figured I was saving a 100 lbs by going to a 2.2 ecotec instead of my old 2.8. Here is a thread with weights of cars collected at the 30th and 35th shows. mine is the 86 gt eco powered car, weighed at the 30th. The fellow that weighed the cars had individual scales for each wheel so that is how I calculated my front rear bias. But the link does not give that info. As you will see some of the weights are surprising but I have to assume they are accurate. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/141663.html

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 08-30-2018).]

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longjonsilver
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Doing my preliminary research on the ecotec engine, i read the thread about the 1800 Volvo and have read your thread and the other ecotec threads her on this forum. i also read threads on ecotec forums. i have noticed that the LE5 motor is available cheaply in the scrap yards, with the 5 speed tranny and superchargers for the ecotec run about 250. Apparently the LE5 motor can be supercharged to around 250hp before major engine mods need to be done, due to the rods used in the motor. i remember that you interchanged various ecotec motor parts to build the motor that you use now. What are your thots about going this route?
jon
edit: my car seems to handle better now that ive installed the 3 core radiator instead of the single core radiator that it came with - more weight right on the nose.

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 09-08-2018).]

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wftb
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Report this Post09-08-2018 02:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The first production LE5 motor is a very good engine. It came with better rods,pistons and crankshaft than later versions. I am talking about the version that was in the Solstice, Sky and the base motor in the Cobalt SS. The early L61 ecotec electronics will not run this engine because it has a different reluctor wheel. But the strong bottom end makes it a good choice for a turbo because you do not need any internal mods to boost it.

The engine in my car has Eagle rods and Wiseco pistons and a head gasket from an LSJ.The rest is all stock first gen 2.2. Because the present engine was from an automatic car, I had to use the water pump piping from my old engine. I also used the oil pan because the new engine's pan had a hole in it.

The superchargers that are available used are either take off's from LSJ motors or they are from the kit that GM sold for the cvalier/sunfire/cobalt 2.2's. These kits came with new injectors and a tune that got downloaded in to the car at a GM dealer.

Stock 2.2 engines have no problem handling the kind of boost from these superchargers. It is when you run a lot of turbo boost or nitrous that the weak link in a 2.2 gets exposed: the ultra thin upper ring lands of the pistons. But if you do a turbo setup and do it right you can keep a 2.2 together at sub 300 HP levels in stock form. Keep the boost down to 8PSI, intercool it, bigger injectors, an FMU and watermeth injection is one way to do it.

The stock LSJ head gasket has proven to be the way to go for boost. Better and cheaper than aftermarket head gaskets.

Do a search on member 4thfiero. He has a turbo LE5 with Alphafab engine management.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 09-09-2018).]

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Lunatic
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Report this Post09-09-2018 07:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LunaticClick Here to Email LunaticSend a Private Message to LunaticEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:

Perhaps if the gages thing is resolved...

jon


Jon,

Yes, WFTB used the OEM Cavalier instrument cluster in his swap. Is this something that you don't like?

I too have a running Ecotec (L61)/F23 swap in my car. I went the other direction and used aftermarket gauges in my car. I clearly showed how to wire up a tachometer using a pull-up resistor using the stock PCM. I also modified the Fiero sending unit using late model Suburban guts and now have a functional fuel gauge. (See my thread for more information).

In case others out there are thinking of swapping in an L61 Ecotec, here is a snippet of information (from my swap) regarding how I resolved the Ecotec tachometer signal.

Steve, let me know if you don't want this in your thread and I'll remove it.


As you know, I've swapped in a 2.2 Ecotec into this car. Since I'm using the stock PCM and BCM, and not the Cavalier cluster, I needed to make the Equus aftermarket tachometer work with the Ecotec. Here's how I did it.

By looking at the 2003 Cavalier wiring schematic, a tachometer trigger signal is sent by the PCM through the serial data line and to the cluster where it's converted.
Since I'm not using the Cavalier cluster, I had to go about this another way.

Looking at the PID value charts was useless as it merely states, "Not Used" on several pins.


By using an oscilloscope, each pin labeled "not used" was checked.
Success was present when pin 32 on the blue connector showed an open collector output for a tachometer.

Since I had an aftermarket tach that doesn't have an internal "pull-up" resistor, I had to add one.
Note: I didn't have a 1K ohm (1000) resistor handy but I had some 1.2K (1200) ohm resistors in my collection.

The pull-up resistor pulls the open (collector) output up to +12V.
When the output transistor turns on, its collector terminal is connected to ground.
Hence the output is a square wave from near-ground to near +12V.

Here's the schematic that made it all work, simple really.
Note: My PCM part # is: 12576162




Since pin 32 was not used, there was no wire coming from the connector. I took another PCM harness pig tail and removed a white wire.


Remove the turquoise clip and unlock the connector.


This leads to exposed terminals and wires. I took a white wire just because.


On the car, I had to undo the clip and disassemble the connector.


Since cavity 32 was unused, I had to drill a small hole in order to place the connector through.
Here, you can clearly see the white wire protruding from cavity 32 on the blue connector.


I extended this new white wire to the stock Fiero harness.
I then chose to add the pull-up resistor in the back of the instrument cluster.
In this location, I could tap into the two electrical points that I needed.
-The green wire is the tach signal wire.
-The resistor is then attached to the signal wire and the opposite end attaches to a keyed-on +12V.


A little video to show that it actually works.

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 09-09-2018).]

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wftb
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Report this Post09-09-2018 09:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Thanks for adding that Shayne. And for those that have never visited his thread(look for Lunatic in the construction zone) there is a wealth of knowledge and how to stuff in his thread. No matter what type of ecotec you install you could not go wrong using his methods.

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Thanks Lunatic, i had read your thread, but had lost it and was wondering where the thing about the gages was? Now i know.

So i guess if i source an LE5 motor, and add a stock supercharger, i will get a reliable engine? i don't need a lot of HP - i must only have 85 HP now, 200HP would be fun and not too much weight in the rear, i guess.
thanks
jon
edit: The F23 tranny weighs about 45 lbs more than the stock Muncie or Getrag trannies. Does your estimate of the weight of the ecotec include the weight of the transmissions? i suspect that the weight gain of the F23 transmission makes up for any loss of weight from the transition from the 2.8 V6 to the ecotec. Dunno about the iron duke engine.

------------------
Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.

Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.

I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!

[This message has been edited by longjonsilver (edited 09-10-2018).]

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wftb
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Report this Post09-25-2018 10:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

When I first ran my 2.2 it was bone stock. It was noticeably faster than my rebuilt 2.8. The 2.8 had forged pistons and was bored 30 thou over and complete rotating assembly was balanced. It isnt just the lighter weight, it is the way the ecotec delivers full power over a broader rpm range that makes it a better choice for a sports car over a 2.8.

The weights quoted for the 2.2 in one of the links is a fully dressed weight. I don't know if the other engines are fully dressed or not (alternator,AC compressor and bracketry etc). The main engine mount and related hardware (cavalier version) weigh 8 lbs and the lower stock dogbone at least 6 lbs.I don't know what the alternator and compressor weigh but you can see how hard it is to compare apples to apples. Making your own motor mounts saves weight.Alternator and AC compressor bolt directly to ecotecs without external mounted brackets also saving weight. There is only one serpentine belt and it is very short.

When the LE5 came out in the Solstice, it was rated at 178HP. Different applications had different ratings but even without a supercharger you are doubling your HP with a stock LE5 over the duke.

My F23 has been perfect as long as I have had it. It had 60000 KM on it when I got it and I have put on around 120000KM on it since. I am still using the original clutch that it came from the wreckers with. I highly recommend using the GM OEM clutch. The extra 45 lbs over the 4 speed that came in my car is worth it for the reliability.

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Report this Post09-26-2018 07:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LunaticClick Here to Email LunaticSend a Private Message to LunaticEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by longjonsilver:
edit: The F23 tranny weighs about 45 lbs more than the stock Muncie or Getrag trannies.


I believe your statement is incorrect Jon.

The 4 speed is the lightest trans by a slim margin, then the 282 (39.9 KG / 88 lbs) then the F23 (46 KG / 102 lbs) and finally the F40 is the heaviest by 30-40 lbs (56 KG / 123 lbs).

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Report this Post09-27-2018 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I did a bit of work over the last couple of days. Ever since I put the heavier springs on I have not been happy with the ride harshness. But I put up with it, telling myself that it will be better that way when I take it for a track day. But here it is almost October and I heavent made a track day yet.

So I decided to put my lighter set of springs on (350 frt 200 rear vs 450frt 350 rear) to smoothe out the ride. Took about 4 hours.

I decided to set up the shocks with a lot stiffer settings than normal. I set the rears at 8(stiffest setting is 18) and the fronts at 5 and drove about 20 KM. It rode about the same as with the heavier springs set at 1 all the way around. This was on roads I drive all the time so it was easy to make the comparison.

I needed to drive to Hanover to pick up a part so I thought I would drive over with the front at 3 and the rears at 4. Then I drove back with all the shocks at 1. On the way over ride was noticeably better but still too noisy. I lke a car to be on the stiff side but with a quiet suspension. Bumps should be seen and felt but not heard.

Driving the same roads on the way back with the shocks set at 1 that was achieved. Instead of a bang when the car hit bad expansion joints or things like a recessed storm drain now all you here is a low whump noise.

I am still going to track days in the future but I am not going to put my heavier springs back on. The range of adjustment on my shocks is something I have not utilized enough. If you set these shocks at 18 the effect would be almost like replacing the shock with a piece of pipe. So I should be able to adjust the shocks to get the roll control I want without stiffer springs. For the rest of this Fiero season, I am going to enjoy the quiet ride.

I even cleaned the calipers:

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 09-27-2018).]

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