Originally posted by Will: One wire at a time, just like everything else. It's only a nightmare if you get it all together and it doesn't work.
Or if you're impatient and want to get it done quickly. It's slow, patient work, and doing it right requires the right tools and buying rolls of every single color of wire used in the right gauges, as well as new pins for the connectors when you're having to extend the wiring (because the dash is further from the ECM and engine, in a Fiero than a front engined car). For anyone who gets frustrated easily at such type of work, it's going to be a "nightmare" to them. I wouldn't call it a nightmare if it doesn't work after getting the wiring done, as you can do it all 100% correct and still have other problems to deal with, like the tune being wrong, or the radio code.
I usually just use leftover engine harness wire for my wiring harnesses. I built a harness from scratch for my Firebird and it wasn't too bad. Probably spend a good 6-8 hours on it though. The only money I spent on it was for heat shrink. I got all the pigtails for free (the ones I didn't already have) and used leftover wiring from other engine swaps/harnesses.
I tend to agree that the Ecotec would be the best 4-banger to swap in a Fiero. But it would also be one of the most involved 4-banger swaps.
If you're looking for something simpler, and easier to install, look for the aforementioned 2.2 OHV engine. It's an older engine, older than the Ecotec or even the Quad4.
Edit to add: if you decide on the 2.2 OHV, look for the '94 and up LN2 variant with sequential fuel injection. It can be found in most small GM FWD cars of that era (Beretta, Cavalier, Corsica, Sunfire, etc) and the S10 pickup.
I tend to agree that the Ecotec would be the best 4-banger to swap in a Fiero. But it would also be one of the most involved 4-banger swaps.
If you're looking for something simpler, and easier to install, look for the aforementioned 2.2 OHV engine. It's an older engine, older than the Ecotec or even the Quad4. Also, I think there was a turbocharged version of that engine.
The 2.2 OHV engine was available along side the Quad4... and in the particular J-body that we are scabbing metric bell housing F23s from, you have to be sure that you get the correct version of the engine in the 02 cars, as the Ecotec (VIN F) and 2.2 OHV (VIN 4) were offered the same year.
Surprised no one has mentioned this. 4 cylinder Honda engine turn counter clockwise. How many reverse speeds did you want?
If you want to go for 4 cylinders, the old school Quad 4 or the new school Ecotec is the way to go, especially as there will be corporate match ups in terms of fitting to bell housings etc.
You said you are looking for economy. Assuming that means you aren't prepared to do an expensive Ecotec swap, that limits you to things like the 170 bhp+ LE5. The supercharged LSJ is a nice looking mill with that blower on the side....
I run a 350 bho 375 ft-lb. LNF in my current daily driver (non-Fiero)
Or if you're impatient and want to get it done quickly. It's slow, patient work, and doing it right requires the right tools and buying rolls of every single color of wire used in the right gauges, as well as new pins for the connectors when you're having to extend the wiring (because the dash is further from the ECM and engine, in a Fiero than a front engined car). For anyone who gets frustrated easily at such type of work, it's going to be a "nightmare" to them. I wouldn't call it a nightmare if it doesn't work after getting the wiring done, as you can do it all 100% correct and still have other problems to deal with, like the tune being wrong, or the radio code.
If you're impatient and want to get anything done quickly, you can screw it up. I don't see why it's a big deal to have the right tools and materials. After all, if you want to TIG weld, you need to buy a TIG welder, helmet, gloves, filling rod, electrodes, etc. It's certainly cheaper to set up a harness kit from scratch than it is to set up a welding kit from scratch.
You can do the harness 100% right and things might not work, but if you did the diligence in building your harness, you know where the problem isn't.
I don't see anything special about wiring, beyond the fact that people whine more about it than most other aspects of a swap.
Originally posted by BillS: Surprised no one has mentioned this. 4 cylinder Honda engine turn counter clockwise. How many reverse speeds did you want?
All of them do not. The older B/D/H series engines do. The old F engine in the 4th gen Prelude was reverse rotation as well. The S2000 F series engine does not, nor do the K series engines.
Originally posted by Will: I don't see anything special about wiring, beyond the fact that people whine more about it than most other aspects of a swap.
I totally agree with everything you said there, especially this. It's just the thing people complain about the most, and given a lot of people who own Fieros and want to do swaps are of the older crowd, they also tend to get more frustrated by wiring and new technology things, which is why so many of them want to do carb based swaps.
Surprised no one has mentioned this. 4 cylinder Honda engine turn counter clockwise. How many reverse speeds did you want?
If you want to go for 4 cylinders, the old school Quad 4 or the new school Ecotec is the way to go, especially as there will be corporate match ups in terms of fitting to bell housings etc.
You said you are looking for economy. Assuming that means you aren't prepared to do an expensive Ecotec swap, that limits you to things like the 170 bhp+ LE5. The supercharged LSJ is a nice looking mill with that blower on the side....
I run a 350 bho 375 ft-lb. LNF in my current daily driver (non-Fiero)
I would take it for granted that someone swapping in a Honda engine would use a Honda transaxle. Do the K-series engines rotate counterclockwise? Those are some VERY nice machines when it comes to making power. I wish Honda would build a V8 based on those engines...
I would take it for granted that someone swapping in a Honda engine would use a Honda transaxle. Do the K-series engines rotate counterclockwise? Those are some VERY nice machines when it comes to making power. I wish Honda would build a V8 based on those engines...
The K is normal rotation. Honda doesn't do the counter clockwise rotation any more. A V8 from Honda based on their Formula/F1 V8 engine would be awesome though.
Ecotec harness makers I spoke w/ (if you don't mind paying for it / if you are worried it'd take years figuring it all out yourself) said they'd make it custom to fit the Fiero and yes this was for the LNF/LSJ. Dealing w/ gauges, that'd have to be hammered out if you want to use stock Fiero but the harness makers I spoke w/ (2 different guys) both include Aeroforce Inteceptor gauges in the setup. One of the guys offered to include two. Here is what all the gauges will display. Really not that difficult...unless you want to the challenge of doing it all yourself from scratch. Once the first one is done, can definitely be used to reverse engineer and new r&d begins from there. Don't worry, I'll do it eventually.
The K is normal rotation. Honda doesn't do the counter clockwise rotation any more. A V8 from Honda based on their Formula/F1 V8 engine would be awesome though.
I have lusted after the idea of a Honda IRL V8 with dog engagement transverse gearbox in an NSX.
Ecotec harness makers I spoke w/ (if you don't mind paying for it / if you are worried it'd take years figuring it all out yourself) said they'd make it custom to fit the Fiero and yes this was for the LNF/LSJ. Dealing w/ gauges, that'd have to be hammered out if you want to use stock Fiero but the harness makers I spoke w/ (2 different guys) both include Aeroforce Inteceptor gauges in the setup. One of the guys offered to include two. Here is what all the gauges will display. Really not that difficult...unless you want to the challenge of doing it all yourself from scratch. Once the first one is done, can definitely be used to reverse engineer and new r&d begins from there. Don't worry, I'll do it eventually.
I'm curious about how they'd make a harness to fit the Fiero without either a Fiero from which to work (IE, drop your car off) or extensive input from you about component locations, harness routing, etc.
IOW, I think that you could get a product from them that would work, but I don't think it would fit the Fiero very well.
OR it won't be plug/play... it'll have a bunch of flying leads that you'll have to terminate.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-12-2014).]
I'm curious about how they'd make a harness to fit the Fiero without either a Fiero from which to work (IE, drop your car off) or extensive input from you about component locations, harness routing, etc.
IOW, I think that you could get a product from them that would work, but I don't think it would fit the Fiero very well.
OR it won't be plug/play... it'll have a bunch of flying leads that you'll have to terminate.
Both those were discussed options, actually. Drag a Fiero out to wherever they were w/ engine/trans already mounted in car so harness could be made-to-order there or take all measurements myself as if I'm building harness then give info to them. I look at everything as a potential business opportunity. So I don't mind paying to do it once so I could reverse engineer it and potentially sell myself. Just to have a finished LNF/LDK-F23/F35 swap in a Fiero would be enough for me, to be honest.
Just wondrring if anybody has just taken the drivetrain, ecm and guage pod from the doner and transplanted it as I system into the Fiero? Would that avoid all the wiring headaches. Then all you need is to make sure fuel pressure matches (high flow pump with regulator), and the connections mechanical and fuild related. Only need to reprogram ecm for abs delete and bcm delete, i'm guessing. Please understand I don't know what each ecm controls or needs from body sensors. So be kind.
this is exactly the way i did my ecotec swap .i also used the fuel pump and harness it came with and put it in the fiero tank .i tuned out the VATS with an HP tuners (i think it cost me 550.00?) system .you do not have to program for ABS delete but you need the ECM and BCM that came from the donor car to make it easy .you dont have the radio from the donor car ? does not matter , you are not running your radio through your ecotec BCM .there are ways to adapt the fiero gauges but i am a right now kind of guy so i used all cavalier gauges .modern GM wiring is super simple .there are no 2 connectors alike so you cant screw up .yes you have to stretch out the harness .just make sure to get the donor car entire body wiring harness , you will have lots of wire left over to do this .i got my ecotec running in less than 6 weeks .not finished , but ready for daily driving .if you read my thread you will realize that it is not just an ecotec swap , but that everything about the car has been modded .if i had to do it all again i would still do another 2.2 .the LNF is a great engine but 2.2's can easily make the same power levels at less cost .and people really need to walk before they try to run .every ecotec project i have seen take a long time has involved extreme mods before even getting the car on the road .a lot quicker to put it in stock and then decide what you want to modify .i am not knocking these people , i just dont have that kind of patience .funny so many people have not seen my thread .my build was one of the first 5 to be put in the construction zone . but the ecotec does not have the mass appeal of the 3800 SC or the LS motors , kind of an acquired taste but i really like mine .
I have done a TON of research on that motor bcc like you too, i like powerful reliable 4 bangers. The 2.2 block was the one that was used to engineer the 1400 hp drag engine called the "import fighter" If you take a look at the build book from ecotec, you can build up the 2.0, 2.2 and 2.4 variants to your desired hp. The only real difference is the 2.0 comes turboed already, and will rev faster, but if you build up the 2.2 and 2.4 blocks to the same specs as the 2.0 block, lets say with 350 hp....the 2.2 and 2.4 blocks, obv being bigger, with give you a bit more low end torque, which is nice. and wont rev up AS fast as the 2.0. But all of those blocks will be reliable and make amazing hp for 4 bangers. I choose the 2.2 bcc its in the middle and thats the one gm used to make there drag engines. Plus there WAY cheaper to get used than a 2.0 block. 2.0 is like 3k still used, where as you can get a 2.2 for like 700-1200 bucks.
Also the ecotec is the lightest engine at around 312 lbs according to certain sources, ups the handling ability. Hope this helps!
As was said, only K series and the RWD S2000 turn clockwise.
I'm pretty sure that is not true. The J series V6 are also clockwise. Honda doesn't make reverse rotation engines in any cars any more. And I'm pretty sure the Formula engines were not reverse rotation either.
the 2.2 stock can be boosted reliably to about 225 HP but after that it is not if you are going to blow up , it is when .and to avoid blowing up even at those modest levels , you need water meth injection , intercooler and bigger injectors and a tune .the weak point is the ring headland at the top of the piston , it is only 1/8" from the top ring to the top of the piston and will fly to bits if you dont keep it cool under boost .so most of us add wiseco pistons and eagle rods and then 300 - 400 hp is pretty easy without blowing up .as far as streetable power goes , the 2.0 turbo starts out with 260 HP and a GM chip will get you 300/300 so it starts with a big advantage .but a 300 HP 2.2 stills drives and sounds like an econobox until you put your foot in to it .there are no driveability issues if it is done right .if i were starting from scratch right now I might go with a 2.0 turbo but that is only because with all the extras i have on my setup , the total cost is probably about the same .but with a 2.2 you can get running a lot cheaper and pay as you go .
Originally posted by wftb: .....if i were starting from scratch right now I might go with a 2.0 turbo but that is only because with all the extras i have on my setup , the total cost is probably about the same....
SAME exact thing I was going to type. Glad you volunteered that information.
Originally posted by wftb: .but a 300 HP 2.2 stills drives and sounds like an econobox until you put your foot in to it .there are no driveability issues if it is done right .
The DI engine is going to have much less lag and much better low RPM torque than the port injected engine.
this is probably not cost effective, or practical. Or maybe even possible.
But someone should stuff a subaru WRX motor in there.
Factory five built a car using this drivetrain. They converted the AWD trans to a "FWD" transaxle by eliminating the rear drive portion. Then stuck it in the rear of the car. It's the FF 818 https://www.factoryfive.com...y-five-wilwood-818s/
Grassroot motorsports did a build on youtube that's excellent to watch.
this is probably not cost effective, or practical. Or maybe even possible.
But someone should stuff a subaru WRX motor in there.
Factory five built a car using this drivetrain. They converted the AWD trans to a "FWD" transaxle by eliminating the rear drive portion. Then stuck it in the rear of the car. It's the FF 818 https://www.factoryfive.com...y-five-wilwood-818s/
Grassroot motorsports did a build on youtube that's excellent to watch.
There were also Subaru FWD transaxles available for some years. I agree that someone should try a Subaru motor. I think there would be adequate room.
wtfb, you'd need bigger injectors and a tune to make any turboed non-turbo engine reliable . I also wouldn't turbo any engine without an intercooler; the majority of factory turbo cars even have an intercooler.
[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 02-13-2014).]
The DI engine is going to have much less lag and much better low RPM torque than the port injected engine.
i only have lag if i am too lazy to downshift .i run 10.5-1 CR so when i am not boosted the car runs the same as an NA 2.2 .What DI does for you is allow insane amounts of boost without worrying about grenading pistons .the LNF motors run 20 psi from the factory , and can handle more .at 20 psi , my intake will split open .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-13-2014).]
Originally posted by wftb: What DI does for you is allow insane amounts of boost without worrying about grenading pistons
That's one of the things it does. DI handles mixture distribution differently than port injection, so it does a lot of things better (and a few worse). The combination of DI and VVT (but mostly DI) allows DI engines to have built-in anti-lag... so the DI engine will virtually eliminate lag.
Yes, a port injected engine can make similar power to a DI engine. That's only a fraction of the story.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-14-2014).]
my engine does not lag .if i am in 5th gear at low RPM it behaves like any small displacement 4 cylinder that is out of its power band and there is not much power there .but when i am in the right gear for the RPM the engine is turning , the power comes on right away . lag is when you are in the right gear for the rpm you are turning , you put your foot in it and nothing happens for a couple of seconds and then it comes on in a big rush .that is not the way my engine behaves .would i ever spend the money to upgrade to an LNF turbo ? No it just would not be worth it .
my engine does not lag .if i am in 5th gear at low RPM it behaves like any small displacement 4 cylinder that is out of its power band and there is not much power there .but when i am in the right gear for the RPM the engine is turning , the power comes on right away . lag is when you are in the right gear for the rpm you are turning , you put your foot in it and nothing happens for a couple of seconds and then it comes on in a big rush .that is not the way my engine behaves .would i ever spend the money to upgrade to an LNF turbo ? No it just would not be worth it .
Lag is when you push the throttle and don't have boost. What I've been trying to tell you is that the DI engine will pull from a low speed in 5th with boost. It finally fulfills the promise of turbos, which is to make a small engine pull like a bigger engine.
i develop boost when i push the throttle at anything above 1800 RPM . any way it appears stock boost is 15 psi or so for the LNF from doing some ecotec forum research .i was going by what the magazines said at the time the motor came out .i actually found a guy that said he was putting an LNF in to an 86 fiero .his name is Dave Storlien from the minneapolis area .never heard of him on here but maybe a few people have done this swap .reading a bit more about the potential of this engine and with a tune and a bigger turbo running 25 psi , people are getting 350 wheel HP .everyone seems to concur that the stock rods will give out at 400HP and my ecotec build book says that as well .they also dont recommend the stock cylinder liners past 400 HP for any ecotec .and that has been the bane of a lot of high HP home projects .the racing block was discontinued a while back so people buy the Dart liners and get them pressed in buy a machine shop .but to get the old liners out they cut them out and that has caused a lot of cracked blocks once the new sleeves are pressed in .i will have to check but i dont think GM has started offering the race block again .so for all practical purposes the upper limit for any ecotec is around 400 HP .
i develop boost when i push the throttle at anything above 1800 RPM . any way it appears stock boost is 15 psi or so for the LNF from doing some ecotec forum research .i was going by what the magazines said at the time the motor came out .i actually found a guy that said he was putting an LNF in to an 86 fiero .his name is Dave Storlien from the minneapolis area .never heard of him on here but maybe a few people have done this swap .reading a bit more about the potential of this engine and with a tune and a bigger turbo running 25 psi , people are getting 350 wheel HP .everyone seems to concur that the stock rods will give out at 400HP and my ecotec build book says that as well .they also dont recommend the stock cylinder liners past 400 HP for any ecotec .and that has been the bane of a lot of high HP home projects .the racing block was discontinued a while back so people buy the Dart liners and get them pressed in buy a machine shop .but to get the old liners out they cut them out and that has caused a lot of cracked blocks once the new sleeves are pressed in .i will have to check but i dont think GM has started offering the race block again .so for all practical purposes the upper limit for any ecotec is around 400 HP .
Look... give it a rest. The DI does better than port injection with a turbo. Period. That's my MFG's are flocking to DI turbo engines while port injected turbo engines weren't as attractive. Whatever your engine will do, the DI will do better. Have you ever driven one?
The DI engine wasn't on the market when the Ecotec build book was published, so what the build book says about Ecotec blocks isn't necessarily applicable. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that the DI blocks are closed deck while the port injected blocks are open deck, for example. That alone increases the head gasket seal durability dramatically.
If blocks are cracking, shops are being stupid. I've read the Ecotec build book, but I don't remember if it said anything about the amount of press fit or the relative temperatures of the block and sleeves during installation. I would think that the data for sleeving a Honda block would be applicable to an Ecotec, and sleeving a Honda block has been pretty scienced out. However, there may be a particular structural weakness in the Ecotec block which makes the requirements different. I don't know the specifics, but I do know that GM did it pretty reliably with production castings. Therefore it's doable and shops that are cracking blocks are F@#$ing it up.
yes DI is better .there you go happy now ? i never said it wasnt better , just that i am more than happy with the way my engine drives .you just keep saying it is impossible for my engine to work as well as it does.without driving it , you just dont know .the LNF motor is in the third edition of the GM sport compact performance build book ,which i have on my desk right now .so quit pretending you know everything about these motors .you dont .and neither do I .but i built one , it runs great and i am happy with it . and thats all i have been trying to get across .
everything i can find indicates the LNF is open deck , and that all the factory gen 2 blocks are the same .there is a gen 3 engine out now and it has quite a few changes , but i cant find a picture of that block .maybe that one has a closed deck .i found a source for a re-sleeved block that i assume would come with a guarantee .it is priced at 4000.00 and you send them your block .i just dont think it is cost effective to try to get more than 400 hp out of any of the 4 cyl ecotecs .if you want that kind of HP there are lots of alternatives that are almost at that hp level from the factory .
Of course you're happy with it and it doesn't lag and it gets 75mpg, it's like the old guys running carburetors still, hard to realize how much greener the grass is until you've munched on some.
Let me explain how punctuation and calitalization work. At the end of your sentence, immediately following the last word, goes a punctuation mark, typically a period. Then you put one or two spaces, with the space bar, and begin your next sentence. The first letter of this next sentence is capitalized. It's like rocket science. The iPhone even does it all for you, just tap the space bar twice.
Oh wow one misspelled word, you're good. Never mind the single mistake and that the letters swapped are right next to each other. If only you could realize the actual good qualities of your motor, instead of preaching its inferiorities as if they were somehow better because you, in all your non-biased beliefs, are too ignorant to see. Direct Injection is better in every way that matters to us. There are downfalls, but performance in every sense of the word? No. That's why manufacturers are in a contest to redesign every engine they make to have DI. It's how the BMW N54, in it's umpteenth iteration of the almighty inline 6, beats it's predecessor in power and economy, and significantly so.
The DI engines need some parts help above about 400 whp but seem pretty durable under that - the build book mentioned applies to LSJ etc., and the factory were being quite conservative. IIRC they also said that connecting rods were only good for 350 bhp - that one is vastly exceeded all the time with no failures.
As for lag, I have seen people bitching about lag when it is nothing of the sort, it is just the fact that all engines develop more power as they near the torque plateau, or to use the common parlance, 'come on the cam'. The DI turbo engines produce more power lower down than any conventionally tuned 'cammy' engine I recall.....
