So I've heard very bad reviews on the 2.5 motor as far as producing power stock and inability to really do upgrade to them Is this true and had anyone ever swapped in a Honda motor?
My main reason for wanting using Honda motor is the reliability of honda and also the amount of upgrades accessible is there something gm related that's comparable
The late model GM engine swaps are all reliable, for 3800 or 3400 swaps just replace the gaskets as the reliability with them is dependent on not having any oil contaminants.
I would actually be more concerned with a Honda engine to be honest, just about every single Honda over a few years old I see on the road is burning oil pretty bad.
------------------ 86 Fiero GT 4spd - L67 swap: VS cam, GenV 98 GTP - Some mods
[This message has been edited by sco77 (edited 01-26-2014).]
Don't discount the 2.5 so quickly, it has more low end torque than most of the 4 cylinder Honda's and is a lot of fun to drive especially with the 5 speed. A little port matching and polishing and a high flow cat with the GT dual exhaust and you would have a good performing street car. That would be a lot less work than an engine swap and a lot cheaper too. I have an 85 2M4 that I put a high flow cat on and tuned up to perfection and it runs out nicely.
I wouldn't put any serious money into a duke. from a performance standpoint, if you try to make any real power out of it, all you get is a ticking(quite literally) time bomb
now a superduty on the other hand, you can do something with that, but you better open your wallet up...
[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 01-26-2014).]
So it seems that a Honda motor hasn't been done which seems strange to me but staying with an inline 4 space wise should stop from having to relocate the entire engine bay...
turbo-ing a duke was and can be destructive. the main cause of this is the ecm. (and yeah i know about the weak block and the weak rods) But the ecm can't vary the timing for boost.(no knock sensors) it can't even vary the timing for egr problems. disconnect the egr and it'll rattle like a B. if you could get the timing to adjust for boost, you could probably get 150 to 180hp with a good setup (fuel & spark) don't know how long it will last at that level. yeah you could go higher, but it will blow up. you could replace the rods with sbc small journal 6.125 or 6.25 or even 6.3in and some sbc pistons. and MAYBE hit 200hp. my guess is if you drive it nice it might last for a summer.
[This message has been edited by conan469 (edited 01-27-2014).]
The duke is a commuter engine. It was not designed to be hopped up. It is reliable for its intended purpose but is not a high performance candidate.
The best engine in the 4 cylinder family bar none, is the Ecotec. They come 160 to 170 hp. right out of the box, and have been successfully modified and turbo'd to 1000 hp.
There is plenty of aftermarket support and the engines are pretty much bullet proof and inexpensive to find.
The duke is a commuter engine. It was not designed to be hopped up. It is reliable for its intended purpose but is not a high performance candidate.
The best engine in the 4 cylinder family bar none, is the Ecotec. They come 160 to 170 hp. right out of the box, and have been successfully modified and turbo'd to 1000 hp.
There is plenty of aftermarket support and the engines are pretty much bullet proof and inexpensive to find.
Arn
just pointing out the absolute limit of the duke. i've seen turbo kits for the cam in block 2.2 and other than head gasket problems they are pretty tough too.
Lets keep things in perspective, The duke is a good motor and lasts 300k miles if taken care of, it was not designed for a turbo but a lot of motors will implode if you beat them up with a turbo. No engine swap is simple or cheap, that is why you see so many unfinished ones for sale, you are putting an engine in the car that it wasn't designed for so that is asking for problems. If you get your 200 hp engine in there what about brakes, suspension and tires? If you find a "cheap" used ecotech engine, unless you have your own shop and the knowledge you are going to spend a couple of grand rebuilding it, then there's the price of all the swap parts. IMO OP is better off enjoying what he has or swapping it for a V6 Fiero or a Fiero that someone else has already done a quality swap on.
So it seems that a Honda motor hasn't been done which seems strange to me but staying with an inline 4 space wise should stop from having to relocate the entire engine bay...
would be a nightmare to mount, and wire into the fiero. it also hasn't been done because the power to cost ratio is all wrong.... ~3-4000k easy not including engine and trans to do that swap id estimate.. for ~1500-2k you can have a turbo 3800 (~300hp) that will all but bolt-in and can get a premade harness and obd2 ecu from vendors here. and re-use the fiero trans if in good shape, or go with a newer F23/35/40 trans for not much added price.
would be a nightmare to mount, and wire into the fiero. it also hasn't been done because the power to cost ratio is all wrong.... ~3-4000k easy not including engine and trans to do that swap id estimate.. for ~1500-2k you can have a turbo 3800 (~300hp) that will all but bolt-in and can get a premade harness and obd2 ecu from vendors here. and re-use the fiero trans if in good shape, or go with a newer F23/35/40 trans for not much added price.
As far as I know, the F35 will not work, directly with a duke, 3x00, or 3800, different bellhousing.
I am definitely appreciating the input here guys... so what Do I wanna look for in order to get an ecotech motor I really want to stay with a four cylinder for the size and the economy...I know economics kinda go out the window when turboing a car but I dont need the extreme high spd of the v6 I wanna stay small and zippy I guess best way to describe it keep the go cart feel
2.5s are what they are. There have been some built up ones, and they put out, but with extreme machining. GM and Grumman put these into those rolling boxes you see the postal service use. Based off the s10. They later went to the 2.2(s10 4cyl). Their long life service vehicles. Also later they went to the Ford Ranger/based 2.3, but these didn't hold up as well as the 2.5 and 2.2s based off the s10. They were designed to be a eco work horse. Compared to many other 4s, they have heavy internals. The 2.2 cavlier engine would be a cheap alternative, a slight bit lighter, but with little advantages. But trans easier to match. I agree with others in that the Ecotec would be your best upgrade. Have seen some long lives with them as long as you keep up on timing chain components. And a lot more trans options than Asian. Look around at some Grand Am, Cavalier Z24, and Cobalt donors if you want to stay manual.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 01-27-2014).]
Ecotecs come in just about any GM vehicle 02+ with a 4 cylinder. There are 2.0L, 2.2L, and 2.4L variants that are fairly common. The 2.0L probably has the most potential and all factory 2.0Ls come with forced induction (supercharged or turboed) from Solstice/Skys and Cobalt SS's. The 2.2 is probably the most available and the 2.4 introduced in 06.
If you're looking to turbo/SC in the future you could probably save some money if you are able to find a 2.0L. Otherwise the 2.2s and 2.4s will reach your goals easily with forced induction. IIRC they can handle 400whp before the rods start to give out.
I believe the world's fastest 4 cylinder drag car is Ecotec powered and runs 6s, just to compare to the Honda motors .
Another option is the Quad-4 which came out in the late 80s and can make a lot of N/A power. The stock H.O. W41 Quad-4 made 190hp and some have made over 220whp N/A. The 2.3L version <95 has most power stock but the 2.4L version is probably a lot more common and is more of a torque motor. There is a GM supercharger kit that was available for the 2.4L. The downside of a Quad-4 is that they are becoming rare and they are known for popping head gaskets, although there is a redesigned head gasket available that is supposed to fix the problem.
If you wanted to do a Honda swap I can't really see it being too expensive as long as you do the fab work yourself... Custom mounts are pretty easy to make but the hardest/most expensive part is probably going to be either making custom axles for the Honda trans/Fiero uprights or adapting the Honda engine to a Fiero trans. If it were me I'd try as much as possible to use the Fiero trans because an adapter plate can be made for less $$ generally than custom axles cost. Wiring shouldn't be terribly difficult but you'd be on your own to figure out gauges. I'm pretty sure a Honda swap COULD be done for about $2000-2500 if you have the time/skill and if custom axles aren't necessary.
Another cool swap that's already been done in a Fiero is a 4G63. Can't find much info on it though.
PS: I've driven a 2.5 Iron Duke 5-speed in an S10 and I can totally understand the need for more power haha. Definitely the slowest vehicle I've ever driven and can barely hold 5th gear on the highway.
[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 01-27-2014).]
Awesome feedback guys in glad to know about this ecotech from so many people I would much rather use a 4 cylinder gm then s Honda if the track records are similar. I'm going to definitely try to find one in my area.best suggestion as far as ecotech motor liter wise with a turbo setup seems like the 2.0?
If you want to go with the Ecotec (no h on the end of that), and turbo it, then the 2.2 is probably the best one to look at for building a ~200 HP turbo engine.
If you do want go with a Honda engine, go with the K series. Stay way from the B/D/H engines. They're good in the Hondas they came in, but not worth the trouble of trying to shove them in a Fiero.
The 2.0L is the only one that comes turbo but there are kits available for the others. I don't know whether or not the available kits fit in a Fiero though.
I forgot about one other option. The 2.2L OHV engine would probably be the easiest 4-banger swap. It comes in tons of J-bodies and would bolt to the stock Fiero trans. It barely makes more power than an iron duke but the newer ones (99+ IIRC) are pretty reliable and there's one guy who's made 400whp on j-body.org. So it has a lot more potential than the iron duke. I'm pretty sure there are turbo manifolds and aftermarket cams available for them as well.
The 2.0L is the only one that comes turbo but there are kits available for the others. I don't know whether or not the available kits fit in a Fiero though.
I forgot about one other option. The 2.2L OHV engine would probably be the easiest 4-banger swap. It comes in tons of J-bodies and would bolt to the stock Fiero trans. It barely makes more power than an iron duke but the newer ones (99+ IIRC) are pretty reliable and there's one guy who's made 400whp on j-body.org. So it has a lot more potential than the iron duke. I'm pretty sure there are turbo manifolds and aftermarket cams available for them as well.
How certain are you that the 2.2 bolts directly on to the fiero stock transmission? And again appreciate all the help
I'm 100% certain, but this is the NON-ecotec 2.2L I'm talking about. The 2.2 OHV engine also uses the same flywheel as 88+ 2.8s, 3.1s, etc... and a Fiero clutch/pressure plate will bolt to that flywheel. Wiring wise you could repin the stock harness, change some connectors, and use a 90s J-body ECM, and mounts wise you'd have to fab something up.
The 2.2 OHV engine has only been Fiero-swapped a couple of times probably because it only offers about 20hp more than an Iron Duke. However unlike the Iron Duke it has some potential for more. If you try revving an Iron Duke much past 5000 rpm you'll probably snap the crank haha.
Some good reading guys. Thanks from me too. I owned a saturn ion redline. It came with the 2.2 ecotec and a supercharger.
ENGINE TYPE: supercharged and intercooled DOHC 16-valve inline-4, aluminum block and head, port fuel injection Displacement: 122 cu in, 1998cc Power (SAE net): 205 bhp @ 5600 rpm Torque (SAE net): 200 lb-ft @ 4400 rpm TRANSMISSION: 5-speed manual About 21 mpg. That sounds like it would be heck to transplant, but it would not be a stuffed engine bay nether. The saturn would do a lot of tire spinning as a FWD car. I think it would be much happier as a RWD.
Originally posted by fierodreamer201386: So I've heard very bad reviews on the 2.5 motor as far as producing power stock and inability to really do upgrade to them Is this true and had anyone ever swapped in a Honda motor?
"Yes" and "I doubt it" are my short answers to each of your two questions above, respectively.
quote
Originally posted by fierodreamer201386: My main reason for wanting using Honda motor is the reliability of honda and also the amount of upgrades accessible is there something gm related that's comparable
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262: well, there's the ecotec, they're pretty tough and reliable, and have an ever growing aftermarket.
I concur.
quote
Originally posted by fierodreamer201386: So the ecotec is a 4 cylinder? And the 3800 and 3400 are both v6s though I'm looking for reliability out of a four
Much to my surprise, no one yet has replied to you regarding those two straightforwardly-worded questions of yours which I've quoted above.
My answer to each of your two questions above is "Yes" and "Yes", respectively.
the eco tech ,& the 3800 are nite mare swaps unless you are willing to spend a few years of your life,the 3800 is rated easy here NOT SO !!.. the electronics on the eco require excellence in electronics engineeering back ground & real dedication to suffering, we currently have some members of our Fiero club going into thier 3 rd year of the buick 3800 into a Fiero ,they are experienced gear heads the 88 stock duke 5 speed coupe is a real fun car to drive you can buy a used marine boat duke engine ,all depends on what YOU want & how much money & sweat you will put into the car ,a fiero chevy 2.8 is the cheapest & easiest swap & contrary to the majority opinion on this forum .it is an engine with more than enough power & it is available cheap..real cheap many of the salvage yard buick 3800 are shot,ruined as many here have found out, if you do a buick 3800 swap buy a running car,, the 3800 is one of the best engines G.M. ever built ... the absolue best way to get the Fiero of your John Wayne wet dreams is to buy one complete!! RUNNING!!Fiero,s are still cheap VERY FEW CARS LOOK BETTER THAN A FIERO G.T. & THE FIERO COUPE IS THE BEST LOOKING BOXY CAR EVER BUILT simple classic design If you rebuild a duke start with brand new connecting rods ,connecting rod separation,learning to fly, is a common occurence with the duke,,,even better use one of the performance rods available make sure the crankshaft is perfect or replace it there are a crap load of go fast parts available for the duke the people here think only a V6 is correct for a Fiero ,nonsense many here only drive thier car only occasionally & seem to think aN engine swap is a fun fraternity kegger, followed by a DRUNKEN delta delta delta sorority panty raid,,even the 2.8,,3.1 3.4 are not easy for the first timer.
I love the Edelbrock elite air cleaner atop a duke TBI,sexier,looks better than a cute young dominatrix with a bullwhip!!
the Honda swap seems like a project destine for failure,, this is based on my efforts to help people do a dificult swap or attemp to build a fiero kit car like a Lamborgine when gas goes to $8 a gallon,& it will , the 40 MPG duke looks good GOD, GUNS,GUTS & FIERO MADE AMERICA GREAT,,,SCREW TOYOTA & NISSAN
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 01-28-2014).]
Maybe if you're scared of electronics a swap is difficult but realistically there are guys who do 3800 swaps in a weekend. My 2nd engine swap ever, 1st in a Fiero, took 5 weeks from purchasing the engine (3500) to driving the car again.
Automotive wiring is easy to learn. When I wired my Fiero swap it was the first time I had done any wiring.
The thing about an Ecotec that's a bit more difficult than a 3800 is that for some reason IIRC gauges need to be swapped as well OR you have to go standalone because of the way the stock PCM is tied into the gauges. Also the transmission needs to be swapped also for an Ecotec. Easiest trans to use is probably the F23 since it fits the stock axles and there are mounts and shifter cables already available for it.
If you're spending 3 years on an engine swap you're probably not spending much time on it...
I don't know how an Iron Duke could be considered fun... I've driven an S10 with one (keep in mind S10s weigh about the SAME as a Fiero) and I could not believe how gutless it was. Could barely use 5th gear going down hill. In that same truck we took out the iron duke and replaced it with a Gen II 3.1 from a 94 Sunbird (which also took about 3-4 weekends to complete) and now it gets rubber in 4th gear .
[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 01-28-2014).]
the eco tech ,& the 3800 are nite mare swaps unless you are willing to spend a few years of your life,the 3800 is rated easy here NOT SO !!.. the electronics on the eco require excellence in electronics engineeering back ground & real dedication to suffering, we currently have some members of our Fiero club going into thier 3 rd year of the buick 3800 into a Fiero ,they are experienced gear heads the 88 stock duke 5 speed coupe is a real fun car to drive you can buy a used marine boat duke engine ,all depends on what YOU want & how much money & sweat you will put into the car ,a fiero chevy 2.8 is the cheapest & easiest swap & contrary to the majority opinion on this forum .it is an engine with more than enough power & it is available cheap..real cheap many of the salvage yard buick 3800 are shot,ruined as many here have found out, if you do a buick 3800 swap buy a running car,, the 3800 is one of the best engines G.M. ever built ... the absolue best way to get the Fiero of your John Wayne wet dreams is to buy one complete!! RUNNING!!Fiero,s are still cheap VERY FEW CARS LOOK BETTER THAN A FIERO G.T. & THE FIERO COUPE IS THE BEST LOOKING BOXY CAR EVER BUILT simple classic design If you rebuild a duke start with brand new connecting rods ,connecting rod separation,learning to fly, is a common occurence with the duke,,,even better use one of the performance rods available make sure the crankshaft is perfect or replace it there are a crap load of go fast parts available for the duke the people here think only a V6 is correct for a Fiero ,nonsense many here only drive thier car only occasionally & seem to think aN engine swap is a fun fraternity kegger, followed by a DRUNKEN delta delta delta sorority panty raid,,even the 2.8,,3.1 3.4 are not easy for the first timer.
I love the Edelbrock elite air cleaner atop a duke TBI,sexier,looks better than a cute young dominatrix with a bullwhip!!
the Honda swap seems like a project destine for failure,, this is based on my efforts to help people do a dificult swap or attemp to build a fiero kit car like a Lamborgine when gas goes to $8 a gallon,& it will , the 40 MPG duke looks good GOD, GUNS,GUTS & FIERO MADE AMERICA GREAT,,,SCREW TOYOTA & NISSAN
I'm sorry but I disagree with this post, at least the parts that make sense.
the eco tech ,& the 3800 are nite mare swaps unless you are willing to spend a few years of your life,the 3800 is rated easy here NOT SO !!.. the electronics on the eco require excellence in electronics engineeering back ground & real dedication to suffering, we currently have some members of our Fiero club going into thier 3 rd year of the buick 3800 into a Fiero ,they are experienced gear heads the 88 stock duke 5 speed coupe is a real fun car to drive you can buy a used marine boat duke engine ,all depends on what YOU want & how much money & sweat you will put into the car ,a fiero chevy 2.8 is the cheapest & easiest swap & contrary to the majority opinion on this forum .it is an engine with more than enough power & it is available cheap..real cheap many of the salvage yard buick 3800 are shot,ruined as many here have found out, if you do a buick 3800 swap buy a running car,, the 3800 is one of the best engines G.M. ever built ... the absolue best way to get the Fiero of your John Wayne wet dreams is to buy one complete!! RUNNING!!Fiero,s are still cheap VERY FEW CARS LOOK BETTER THAN A FIERO G.T. & THE FIERO COUPE IS THE BEST LOOKING BOXY CAR EVER BUILT simple classic design If you rebuild a duke start with brand new connecting rods ,connecting rod separation,learning to fly, is a common occurence with the duke,,,even better use one of the performance rods available make sure the crankshaft is perfect or replace it there are a crap load of go fast parts available for the duke the people here think only a V6 is correct for a Fiero ,nonsense many here only drive thier car only occasionally & seem to think aN engine swap is a fun fraternity kegger, followed by a DRUNKEN delta delta delta sorority panty raid,,even the 2.8,,3.1 3.4 are not easy for the first timer.
I love the Edelbrock elite air cleaner atop a duke TBI,sexier,looks better than a cute young dominatrix with a bullwhip!!
the Honda swap seems like a project destine for failure,, this is based on my efforts to help people do a dificult swap or attemp to build a fiero kit car like a Lamborgine when gas goes to $8 a gallon,& it will , the 40 MPG duke looks good GOD, GUNS,GUTS & FIERO MADE AMERICA GREAT,,,SCREW TOYOTA & NISSAN
the eco tech ,& the 3800 are nite mare swaps unless you are willing to spend a few years of your life,the 3800 is rated easy here NOT SO !!.. the electronics on the eco require excellence in electronics engineeering back ground & real dedication to suffering, we currently have some members of our Fiero club going into thier 3 rd year of the buick 3800 into a Fiero ,they are experienced gear heads
Perhaps I'm missing something thats somewhat obvious, but WHY would either of these swaps be a "nightmare"? Do you not just get all the electronics (ECM, harness, dashboard) and install them directly into your fiero? The mounts, shifter linkages and axle shafts should be the worst part..... Right? Why would you rewire anything if it's already done from the doner car?
The Ecotec is the best GM 4 for upgrades, hands down. The 2.0 turbo DI version will give 300 HP and 300+ torque with just a tune and decent exhaust. If paired with an F23 transmission, it can even use Fiero manual transmission axles.
The Honda B series engines are limited to 2.0 and will not produce the low RPM torque that the DI Ecotec does, thanks to a lack of DI.
The Honda K series engines come as big as 2.4 from the factory, but still don't have DI, so they may not spool a turbo as effectively as the Ecotec, but have the capability for INSANE horsepower on the top end.
The Honda swaps are extremely scienced out and would be fairly easy as far as inter-manufacturer swaps go.
.
.
