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GT with a perfectly good 17k mile engine, yank it and put in a LX9 3500 by jcmiracle_man
Started on: 10-04-2013 07:32 PM
Replies: 121 (3132 views)
Last post by: jcmiracle_man on 07-06-2014 07:18 PM
carbon
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Report this Post10-15-2013 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So you bought that thing... awesome.

I need to get off my butt...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 10-15-2013).]

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ericjon262
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Report this Post10-15-2013 11:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
lol, that's still in your garage?
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Report this Post10-15-2013 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

lol, that's still in your garage?




But the F23 is in... although not completed.
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Report this Post10-15-2013 11:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:




But the F23 is in... although not completed.


I think even MY build has progressed faster then your's!

------------------
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...

Built not bought... Because bolt-ons don't.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/119122.html

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Report this Post10-15-2013 01:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:


I think even MY build has progressed faster then your's!



Yes... my kung fu is severely lacking.
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Report this Post10-15-2013 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickTRoofClick Here to Email PatrickTRoofSend a Private Message to PatrickTRoofEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It's a good paint job, especially for a first-time DIY.

 
quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:


I happen to like the colors on a poulan chainsaw, thanks.


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jcmiracle_man
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Report this Post10-16-2013 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Got the first one mounted. I looks a little odd but I think it'll grow on me. I had to make my own stainless muffler straps. Apparently no one makes them in stainless except for round mufflers. It's attached to a stud on the backside of the steel bumper.




It made the piping very easy to run and left tons of room in the engine bay.
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Report this Post10-16-2013 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:





Oh... dear...

Black paint? Perhaps paint 'em purple? Why not center exit?

 
quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:

I happen to like the colors on a poulan chainsaw, thanks.


Excellent response!

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 10-16-2013).]

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jcmiracle_man
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Report this Post10-16-2013 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yea I'm thinkin some flat black high heat paint and shiny tips will make it look more appealing. I had originally bought these planning on mounting them in the engine bay. I gave up on that idea for lack of room. Still wanted to use the mufflers. I admit center outlet would've looked better but its what I had. At the price I got them for I'd have to pay triple to get a different set. I thought about going with round straight through mufflers but didn't want the obnoxious noise. If its too quiet I may still go that way but I doubt it.
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Report this Post10-17-2013 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:
I had originally bought these planning on mounting them in the engine bay. I gave up on that idea for lack of room. Still wanted to use the mufflers.


You couldn't mount one in the stock muffler location and one where the cat was (and run a pipe back to the tip)? They don't really look that big, especially if they fit where you have them now...

One of my concerns with my swap is what to do for exhaust after the 3500 manifolds as they don't lend themselves to a crossover pipe very well.
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Report this Post10-17-2013 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


You couldn't mount one in the stock muffler location and one where the cat was (and run a pipe back to the tip)? They don't really look that big, especially if they fit where you have them now...

One of my concerns with my swap is what to do for exhaust after the 3500 manifolds as they don't lend themselves to a crossover pipe very well.


I can build you both something similar to what i have in my 3400 car





my exhaust after the ypipe is 2.5" mandrel bent tubing run in the stock fiero location.. I mounted a camaro magnaflow muffler under my trunk floor ( had to cut a few inches from the bottom of my trunk) my car sound great and i don't have any trouble with heat in my engine bay..

------------------
--Mark--
Yellow 88 GT 3400 5speed

Need headers? click here!

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Report this Post10-17-2013 09:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

86 toy

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quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:

Here's the better video. My digital camera and my phone got shamed by an Iphone. and no I'm an android guy.
This was taken before the other. Earlier today.
The better video


that thing sounds sweet!! makes me wanna cam my 3400.. the best part about the video though is the kid in the backround yelling YEAH!! YEAH!! lol

------------------
--Mark--
Yellow 88 GT 3400 5speed

Need headers? click here!

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Report this Post10-17-2013 02:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


You couldn't mount one in the stock muffler location and one where the cat was (and run a pipe back to the tip)? They don't really look that big, especially if they fit where you have them now...

One of my concerns with my swap is what to do for exhaust after the 3500 manifolds as they don't lend themselves to a crossover pipe very well.


The mufflers do clear in both locations front and rear. the problem is the center dump manifolds. the outlet points right at the side of the muffler. it could be done but would require a close radius 90 and then the tightest radius u-bend that can be found. Very restrictive and lots of pipe that just doesn't need to be there.
These mufflers would work well in the engine compartment with rear dump log manifolds or headers but the only headers i found for the 3500 were also center dump at britishcarconversions. the other headers that were just posted look nice but I'm committed to true dual exhaust.
In a stock unmodified 3500 you could use the stock underframe pipe as the crossover and Y-in to the rear pipe above the driveshaft behind the stock muffler, there's room there ,and connect to stock exhaust. but that might not flow enough to keep up with any upgrades.
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Report this Post10-17-2013 02:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I could build you headers however you want them..

------------------
--Mark--
Yellow 88 GT 3400 5speed

Need headers? click here!

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Report this Post10-17-2013 03:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 toy:

I can build you both something similar to what i have in my 3400 car





I see your AC compressor there... does the header clear the lines?
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Report this Post10-17-2013 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86 toySend a Private Message to 86 toyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:


I see your AC compressor there... does the header clear the lines?


I dont know I have yet to try to fit lines on it. when I built the headers I never even gave it a thought about the ac compressor clearance so if I were to build them again I would probably design them a little differently so that I know without a doubt that the lines would clear ..
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Report this Post10-18-2013 11:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Finished up today. Finally got to drive it. WOOHOO! Its as stupid fast as I expected.
The heater core was a breeze. Easiest of the many I've done.

There's the finished exhaust.
So now that it's done I'll give you the scoop on my exhaust job. It's all stainless, not the pretty shiny kind, but the kind that comes OE on all modern cars and made most of the muffler shops expand into other work. I didn't want to have to repair this every few years and didn't like the $$$ price tag that comes with a custom stainless job. So me and my hacksaw n a can of cutting oil wen't down to the scrapyard and cut off pipes from 5 or 6 cars. making sure to get a variety of bends. All in 2 1/4. It worked out pretty well. Complete stainless exhaust system including mufflers and welding wire. Under $100.
I got to tell you welding overhead while laying on a creeper is no fun. I had a coworker give me some welding leathers out of the blue 2 days before I started, he didn't even know. What a Godsend. Still the sizzling noise of a hot spark that just landed in your ear is something you'll never forget.

[This message has been edited by jcmiracle_man (edited 10-19-2013).]

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jcmiracle_man
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Report this Post10-19-2013 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So as mentioned earlier It runs great. I'll have a video tomorrow.
I'm not going to have to do much tuning It runs so well. Revs so fast I have to pay close attention to keep up shifting.
I got 2 problems that I'll have to deal with in tuning.
-It tends to die when I come to a stop. Especially If I let the RPMs drop suddenly. It doesn't even seem to respond it I hit the gas if I don't catch it soon enough. If I ease them down not so much. I need to double check that the ECM is seeing VSS signal. Maybe base mechanical throttle adjustment or throttle follower in programming. Does it have decel fuel cut?
-Throttle response off idle is way lacking. At first I just thought it was just cold but it didn't come out after warmup. Hopefully you guys will be able to hear it in the video tomorrow. It just seems to bog down right before it takes off.

Any ideas or input?
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Report this Post10-19-2013 07:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for joshua riedlSend a Private Message to joshua riedlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I dealt with those same issues when I did my 3900 swap. With large injectors and a big cam throttle tip in was a huge issue and a wide band o2 was almost useless because of the cam and delay in exhaust flow. After a lot of Internet searching I found someone mention the AE vs AE async pulse table. It's an 8 cell table. I ended up lowering all values by .15 which eliminated all tip in stumbles. It may be a little crude because I don't know what the individual cells do. For the stall issue, assuming the vss is working decell fuel is likely working too. This was the assumption I went with and it worked. When tuning VE I had to remove a bunch of fuel for the bigger injectors and large cam. This also removed fuel from the ranges that you don't drive in so I never thought to change. Basically, I added a bunch of fuel to the cells below 800rpm and between 70-100kpa. It's where the car goes when the iac opens all the way trying to save the stall. No more issues after that. This is assuming there are no mechanical issues obviously.
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Report this Post10-19-2013 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The closest entry to that I can find is labeled: AE multiplier vs. AE pulses.
I'm guessing that isn't it. I even switched xdf's and used the search function.
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Report this Post10-19-2013 02:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joshua riedlSend a Private Message to joshua riedlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm using a 9396 computer so it may be labeled different. Are there 8 cells? Did you try and add fuel to the low rpm/high kpa areas?
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Report this Post10-20-2013 12:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by joshua riedl:

With large injectors and a big cam throttle tip in was a huge issue and a wide band o2 was almost useless because of the cam and delay in exhaust flow. After a lot of Internet searching I found someone mention the AE vs AE async pulse table. It's an 8 cell table. I ended up lowering all values by .15 which eliminated all tip in stumbles.


This worked great, Thanks. I would have never found this on my own. On my tune it was labeled AE multiplier vs. AE pulses. Completely cured my tip in. I have no Idea what It adjusted but it did the trick.

The stalling wasn't so easy. Increasing VE in those cells didn't seem to help. I added 10 to each cell and if anything it made it worse. My scanner showed the increase pwm as it stalled.
I did get it fixed or at least drastically improved by changing these :
-max throttle follower steps vs. mph Slightly raised the lowest 2 entries
-max throttle follower steps vs. rpm This entry went from 96 to 64 in the middle I made it a more gradual drop to 64 at 0 RPM
-throttle follower decay rate vs. mph Raised 0 MPH equal to 4 MPH I think this one helped the most
I may raise some of these values more. There's been a couple stalls and times it came close but recovered.

Ohh... the joy the pain of tuning. I broke out my old TOP853 burner just to find out it doesn't support win7. Had to do all my tuning on the ancient setup.
Right in the middle of all this after my 3rd or 4th change it started stalling on accel! Out of the blue. I'd hit the gas n lose power, engine light would come on and then return to normal till I hit the gas again. Turns out I didn't give the decklid hinge enough clearance. and it pushed the main battery cable close to the ALT fan. It only shorted on accel. Causing the ECM to reset. I'm just glad it didn't catch on fire. I finally found it by seeing the huge arc when I jerked the harness around.

[This message has been edited by jcmiracle_man (edited 10-20-2013).]

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Report this Post10-20-2013 01:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Videos as promised. Did take 2 after scaring the neighbor lady.
take 1

take 2

Had some fun escapades last night. Showed up an old rival, that was fun. Still learning the feel of the new clutch. I found out that when shifting at high RPM I have to let the cluch grip first before I gas it. Once it starts slipping it doesn't catch up like a standard friction clutch that I'm used to. But once its fully engaged it holds well. Anyway I completely missed second and still smoked him.

I do believe I already broke a mount or something else. I feel something move when I launch. Not really sure how to find it. I'm used to powerbraking an auto trans car to easily find a bad mount. Not sure with a manual trans.
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Report this Post10-20-2013 01:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joshua riedlSend a Private Message to joshua riedlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good to hear your making progress. The only other trick I did was making sure the idle and main VE tables match except I add 3 points to the main table since it's under load. I could really nicotine the PCM switching between tables until I did this.
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Report this Post10-21-2013 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for carbonSend a Private Message to carbonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:

Videos as promised. Did take 2 after scaring the neighbor lady.
take 1

take 2


Fun fun... kinda jealous right now.
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Report this Post10-24-2013 09:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I've had more time to do some driving before winter hits and then its in the garage. I've got one problem not sure what to do about. In town driving especially in traffic I can't let the RPMs go below 2k. If I upshift soon or down too late it gets real jerky. 3rd and 4th gear are almost useless in town.
I'm unsure if this is a result of the 6 puck clutch being too grabby, or the huge cam not having enough low end torque. Either way this might be something I have to just deal with.
My Camaro build also has a 6 puck clutch and it is touchy but is capable of lower rpm cruising, but thats a whole different beast.
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Report this Post10-25-2013 08:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:

So I've had more time to do some driving before winter hits and then its in the garage. I've got one problem not sure what to do about. In town driving especially in traffic I can't let the RPMs go below 2k. If I upshift soon or down too late it gets real jerky. 3rd and 4th gear are almost useless in town.
I'm unsure if this is a result of the 6 puck clutch being too grabby, or the huge cam not having enough low end torque. Either way this might be something I have to just deal with.
My Camaro build also has a 6 puck clutch and it is touchy but is capable of lower rpm cruising, but thats a whole different beast.


If its the same WOTTech cam originally installed, then its pretty wild and will definitely be rough in the low rpm range. Reducing proportianal gain might be able to help, unless you are only using open loop.
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Report this Post10-25-2013 09:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i am using closed loop. please explain "reducing proportional gain".
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post10-25-2013 04:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you're in for some pain, I'd re-examine whether or not you need the larger injectors for your build considering it is naturally aspirated. I think you should spend some time trying to dial in idle fueling using a wideband O2 sensor before fiddling with proportional gains. Large cams generally run rich at idle so your situation will be even worse with speed density and a low idle vacuum which proportional gains changes are supposed to help however first things first.

Calculate an appropriate Base pulse constant based on your fuel flow and displacement at idle first. If push comes to shove, put the stock injectors back in and see where you get with them.
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Report this Post10-25-2013 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joshua riedlSend a Private Message to joshua riedlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Run 4th gear, lug it real bad, lock the blm's at 128 and data log. You may be surprised what you see.
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jcmiracle_man
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Report this Post10-25-2013 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm not so sure this can be tuned out. when i say it gets jerky. i mean it can't be lugged. it acts like a teenager learning to drive a manual. violently jerks the whole car back and forth until I push the clutch in.
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Report this Post10-25-2013 08:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joshua riedlSend a Private Message to joshua riedlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a pretty big cam also and I tuned mine out. You may have today with timing and fuel for a while.
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Report this Post10-25-2013 08:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joshua riedlSend a Private Message to joshua riedlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm not sure how far away you are but I'll be at Great Lakes dragway Sunday if you're interested.
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Report this Post10-25-2013 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
joshua dialing back decel in the rough area may help him I'm thinking, the neck snapping he's getting is probably the result of on/off fueling from decel activation being all over the place because of the cam change. He should be able to disable to see if there is a difference. There's a good thread or two somewhere on Thirdgen regarding this kind of problem with a cam swap.
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Report this Post10-26-2013 07:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OK guys I'll get on some changes n get back hopefully with good results. I'll let you know what works. Good to know that someones been here before and that its not purely mechanical.

I'd love to make to the strip but that's a little far. Driving through Chicago to get there in my car that currently hates traffic doesn't sound great either.
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Report this Post10-26-2013 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jcmiracle_man:

OK guys I'll get on some changes n get back hopefully with good results. I'll let you know what works. Good to know that someones been here before and that its not purely mechanical.

I'd love to make to the strip but that's a little far. Driving through Chicago to get there in my car that currently hates traffic doesn't sound great either.


Disabling closedloop by raising the coolant temp threshold at which it is activated will help a lot until you get the problem resolved. It might even make the car drive in a more predictable manner as well as help you identify fueling disparities in the datalog as they will not be corrected by the ECM.

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Report this Post10-26-2013 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hookdonspeedClick Here to visit hookdonspeed's HomePageClick Here to Email hookdonspeedSend a Private Message to hookdonspeedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
oh nice! im glad that engines going into a fiero!!! i love your swap so far, but i do have 1 concern... daves engine was dyno'd at almost 300WHP if i am correct? thats well over 300 crank HP, you said your clutch is only rated at 300?
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post10-26-2013 11:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hookdonspeed:

oh nice! im glad that engines going into a fiero!!! i love your swap so far, but i do have 1 concern... daves engine was dyno'd at almost 300WHP if i am correct? thats well over 300 crank HP, you said your clutch is only rated at 300?


It's not the HP that he needs to be concerned about it's the torque, the last dyno I saw for this motor when Dave had it was around 260 lb/ft I believe and my understanding was that it was at the wheels.

274/250 at the wheels is the last I saw but I believe there was one that increased the WHP but dropped the torque some.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-26-2013).]

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jcmiracle_man
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Report this Post10-26-2013 12:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jcmiracle_manSend a Private Message to jcmiracle_manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The clutch is rated fro 295ft/lb torque. Its the highest rated clutch I could find and it was reasonably priced. I am definitely close to its limits but didn't have many options. It doesn't slip on hard launch. I'm more concerned with breaking something because it is so grabby.
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joshua riedl
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Report this Post10-26-2013 03:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for joshua riedlSend a Private Message to joshua riedlEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Probably a stupid thought but are you sure e PCM is reading mph? It may be possible that the tune is switching between idle and main VE tables causing the chugging. For example, if it's running rich in the main VE table and pulling fuel when you push in the clutch it may go into the idle table and need to add fuel. It can't do it fast enough so you get poor performance. Also, can you run top gear on the highway at 2,000rpm or below?
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