Why don't you contact Superdave he tuned that motor with different set ups and made good numbers. He had the same ecm as you are running and might have a back up to get you running in the right direction.
I am using Daves tune. I have several bins from him.
After a few small changes and more driving to narrow down specifically where my problem is I've discovered it mainly only acts up on clutch engaged closed throttle decel, or especially coasting/cruising closed throttle gets extremely jerky at low RPMs in any gear. Goes away and can be lugged if I put my foot in it.
I lowered prop gain vs. airflow 0 and 16 entries. Raised DFCO speed threshhold
on a serious note, I hope you get it running good and get some #'s posted of what is can do, I have a 3500 in my 86 that's just about (its taken forever because of life) done, hoping I can get it close to 300 at some point down the road
I am using Daves tune. I have several bins from him.
After a few small changes and more driving to narrow down specifically where my problem is I've discovered it mainly only acts up on clutch engaged closed throttle decel, or especially coasting/cruising closed throttle gets extremely jerky at low RPMs in any gear. Goes away and can be lugged if I put my foot in it.
I lowered prop gain vs. airflow 0 and 16 entries. Raised DFCO speed threshhold
Change one table at a time so you can follow the trend in driveability change. Consider restoring proportional gains as I recall that being a major table in tuning out steady state light load surging. Start your logging at just before you enter the trouble spot. Go to that area of the delta Map decel table and start lowering the values to see if that helps as it sounds like decel is overly aggressive for your engine arrangement at that point pulling too much fuel and reapplying it in response to the change in Map upward.
Just got my wideband removed from the camaro and will be working on getting it installed this weekend. From there I'll be able to do this a little more in earnest. Have to figure out datalogging in tunerpro, I had always used TTS datamaster but A1 isn't supported.
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yes, but he had tunes for his five speed cavi, and his automatic camaro.
and to end all discussion on the matter. I am using the latest 5-speed tune. FROM DAVE. That's what I started with.
Just got my wideband removed from the camaro and will be working on getting it installed this weekend. From there I'll be able to do this a little more in earnest. Have to figure out datalogging in tunerpro, I had always used TTS datamaster but A1 isn't supported.
and to end all discussion on the matter. I am using the latest 5-speed tune. FROM DAVE. That's what I started with.
Without the long tube headers and cat back system he had... definitely going to be differences.
He's got the tune that i ran in the Z24 before i pulled the engine out. I drove the heck out of it and had dialed it in pretty well. The changes in exhaust could very well account for some issues.
If you get some datalogs with Tunerpro just email them over, I'll help you work out the bugs.
First thing though, it's pretty likely that open loop is disabled. I tuned a lot of cars and this was the only one i had open loop issues with. I ran a heated o2 and just let it go directly into closed. Never had any issues with that.
The bucking at low RPM is usually just too much spark advance, find the Kpa/RPM that you notice it at and just drop that and neighboring cells by a degree or 2 at a time. It should smooth out quick.
I was not trying to slam anyone. I know Dave has tuned this motor from stock up to his itb set up and done well, He has given suggestions with my tune so that is why I suggested to contact him. He built the motor he tuned the motor. I have a 3500 4 speed and I am working on tuning it but use a different ecm.
OK so I installed my LC-1 wideband this weekend. Its working as expected. I'm struggling with tunerpro rt. Trying to get a good datalog but I can't get it to connect. When I test the cable through tunerpro it passes, until I plug it into the car. Then it fails. If I connect to the ECM with key on engine off it says connected. As soon as I start it it's flashing from connected to Error and the error counts are counting up. Both engine off and running the data in tunerpro is incorrect.
I'm using a Windows 8 laptop, PL2303 XA/HXA USB to serial adapter, AKM electronics RS232 serial ALDL cable, the bare pin version. It has 2 leads, brown and black. I've hooked them up both ways. Brown to M gives me errors. Black to M gives me nothing at all. Its been years since I've used some of this stuff. My old laptop had a serial port. The usb adapter doesn't technically support win 7/8 but I found a hacked driver that's been working so far. I don't recall the AKM serial ALDL cable requiring a driver. Could be wrong. AKM looks to be out of business so no support there.
I checked my ground at the ALDL its clean. I'm using pin M for data which was moved from E during the harness repin. A for ground.
It's been a while so bear with me. You do need a USB driver. There are two switches on the back of the auto prom. I believe they both need to be positioned outboard. Interface needs to be set to autoprom. The data is wrong because it's not connected so I wouldn't worry about that yet. I have had weird issues where I need to turn the key on, load the bin and then initialize the emulator. I'm far from an expert though, Joseph Upson is pretty versed on this stuff. Edit, maybe I read that wrong. Can you emulate?
[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 11-03-2013).]
I see that you say you might need new mounts? I agree; I quickly outgrew the stock rubber mounts and replaced them with poly. Then later on down the road, the rear trans mount bracket broke into three pieces. I ended up welding it together with some extra 1/4" steel for reinforcement.
You may also find yourself outgrowing the 4-speed quickly. I know I did, even though it never broke and took plenty of abuse even with 200,000 kms on it. The nice thing about an F23 is you can get an affordable LSD for it (OBX).
If you're having issues with a clutch, just order a Clutchnet stage 4 6-puck. I have one on my turbo 3500 Firebird and it holds the power no problem; never slips, and is totally streetable. I've read some hit/miss stories on the XTD/ebay brand clutches. Some have ended up with pressure plates with LESS holding pressure than stock. A Clutchnet 6-puck disc (about $150) with a stock pressure plate (probably can get a new one for under $50) may even be an improvement.
I'm not sure why you're considering a pusher or dual fan setup. I've never had coolant temps go over 206*F even in the summer with the stock fan/radiator.
I recently installed a big N/A cam in mine as well and tuning is proving a challenge . I installed an LSD'd F23 at the same time but haven't been able to enjoy that much yet. I'm currently painting my car again (was green haha) and installing poly bushings in the front suspension.
[This message has been edited by bcampbell (edited 11-03-2013).]
I'm not using an auto prom or an emulator. Just a serial aldl cable for data log. I have hooked up my otc scan tool, which works correctly for codes and data. That should prove that the problem is not on the vehicle end. I can't get the aldl to communicate with the laptop on tunerpro.
I think this will solve my data connection problem with native Win 7/8 support and less complexity(USB to TTL instead of USB to serial, serial to TTL). It will also be a plus to have a dedicated USB port installed in the dash. Nothing needed for data hookup but a cable. This is the one I ordered, I opted for this one instead of his so I won't have to wait for shipping from China. It gets wired to pins A & M. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBay...me=ADME:L:OC:US:3160
I should have it in a week. If all goes well I'll document the install.
[This message has been edited by jcmiracle_man (edited 11-04-2013).]
Have you downloaded the usb drivers from moates.com ? There is info on the tunnerpro or moates forum. Superdave wrote a sticky about this on www v6z24.com
I'm not sure this applies to me as I'm not using any moates hardware. The only usb driver I'm using in the pl2303 chipset driver for the serial adapter. If it still does please post a link.
The tiny chip worked great. Direct USB to ALDL connection. The size of a postage stamp, connected instantly with no problems. Has a couple tiny LEDs for send and recieve. I'll be doing a permanent install soon but I finally got the log file. I tried to spend some time in the problem areas. Especially 1500-2000 RPM closed throttle cruising usually when maintaining 30-35 mph is when its bucking hard. log file
With just a quick glance i see that your idle and main ve tables are very dissimilar. I wouldn't expect them to match perfectly but it's really far off. Also check you 100kpa timing. Looks like you need to change the 29* at 3200 rpm to 31* or so. Timing goes up and down and back up again. I can't imagine that was on purpous, probably an oversight. I watched the log and i'm going to have to repeat myself a little. It looks like idle is tuned well and stays at 128. Driving around you sometimes get into the low 90's. My theory is the pcm is pulling fuel while driving and when you slow to a stop it switches to the idle table except it's still pulling fuel and can't save the stall. Your 60kpa idle is a 10. your 60kpa main ve is a 26 at 1,000rpm. I would figure out which one is right, probably the idle table in this kpa range and start blending the tables together. I bet the stall goes away completely.
[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 11-08-2013).]
Also, take a look at your 80kpa column. looks like a dip in timing and then back up in the 85kpa column. I would smooth that out to keep the engine from hunting around. I see superdave is commanding 13.4 afr under full throttle and has more full throttle timing than me. Looks like I have some experimenting to do next year.
[This message has been edited by joshua riedl (edited 11-09-2013).]
Here's the new log and bin. This one is closed loop disabled for VE tuning. To give you a heads up on what I've already done. I changed the main VE map to match the idle map with less fuel. Then I cut the VE a small amount across the board. Its still looks incredibly rich in the no/light load areas. Changed target afr. I don't know why but the target afr closed throttle idling still shows 12.4 goes right to 14.7 with a little gas. Shouldn't idling target afr be 14.7?
This morning I changed the datastream def. file. the calculation for wideband in order for the datalog to match what I was reading on my LC-1 gauge. ECM has been reading a full 1.0+ leaner than the gauge. It was x +10, I changed it to X +8.8. Dunno if that was the right way to do it wasn't sure if I should change x instead. But it looked right comparing. I also built some histogram tables for afr and knock but knock doesn't seem to work the way I want yet. Can't get it to give me total knock counts.
I didn't watch the entire log but I did see rpm's drop to 675 with the 12.4 afr commanded. I'm guessing this is a stall saver because it went right back to 14.7 like you mentioned. I take this as a good sign because everything is working. The only other 12.4's I saw were in the extremely cold areas but your coolant temp sensor is working so at this point I wouldn't worry too much. As far as total knock counts, it was explained to me and I believe it, that the computer will see knock counts but it doesn't necessarily call it knock. basically, don't worry about counts and just watch kr. It seems like you are going the right direction with the tune. next I would lock blm, max and min, to 128. When doing this drive real easy, no full throttle and use the integrator to tune. I don't go for 128 as I found it would stall and run lean when cold and couldn't find a multiplier to fix it. I shoot for 120-122 on the integrator. Drive around doing the oddball stuff like no throttle in top gear, make smooth slow transitions so you have useful information and don't make rash decisions because you could be in AE or PE multipliers. Dont' forget to put blm's back to normal when finished and no full throttle until then. I don't log wideband so I can't help there. I also know some people chose to lock the pcm in open loop and tune that way but I just chose to not fight the o2 sensor and it was easy and worked well. Good luck.
Been a while, I finally got an ostrich so I can start finishing up the tuning easier. I've got it running quite well. I'm struggling with timing too advanced while cranking, bucking starter and backfiring through intake, blowing off the vacuum hoses. But I haven't seen any way to adjust it in the tune.
Also I've been reading up on the NAST1 modified A1 code. I've so far made it through 41 pages of the over 60 page thread. Anybody using it? What do you think.
I've been finding the weak links. So far I've blown the shift cable clip off. Ripped the Dogbone motor mount in half once. Fixed it then broke it again broke bolts off in the cylinder head and ripped the front bushing out of it. Also ripped the forward trans mount into pieces. I've ordered a set of motor and trans mounts from Rodney. Anybody know if they are stiff enough to not need a dogbone. As is right now I have no way to mount a dogbone mount with the bolts broke off in the head.
Been a while, I finally got an ostrich so I can start finishing up the tuning easier. I've got it running quite well. I'm struggling with timing too advanced while cranking, bucking starter and backfiring through intake, blowing off the vacuum hoses. But I haven't seen any way to adjust it in the tune.
Also I've been reading up on the NAST1 modified A1 code. I've so far made it through 41 pages of the over 60 page thread. Anybody using it? What do you think.
I've been finding the weak links. So far I've blown the shift cable clip off. Ripped the Dogbone motor mount in half once. Fixed it then broke it again broke bolts off in the cylinder head and ripped the front bushing out of it. Also ripped the forward trans mount into pieces. I've ordered a set of motor and trans mounts from Rodney. Anybody know if they are stiff enough to not need a dogbone. As is right now I have no way to mount a dogbone mount with the bolts broke off in the head.
can you post a picture of the broken bolts, I know a couple of methods for extraction that might work, but I'd need to see pictures to be sure. I doubt the dickman mounts alone will hold it, the dogbone has way more leverage on the engine to hold it still.
yes I'll get a picture of the broken bolt uploaded soon
its below the level of the head and I wasn't able to turn it with a hammer and sharp punch. unfortunately its low clearance very close to the strut tower. not even enough clearance for a 90 degree drill
yes I'll get a picture of the broken bolt uploaded soon
its below the level of the head and I wasn't able to turn it with a hammer and sharp punch. unfortunately its low clearance very close to the strut tower. not even enough clearance for a 90 degree drill
at least it's not too hard to drop a cradle... I would recommend either solid mounts or a dogbone.
I'm an experienced professional mechanic and consider it one of the worst nightmare jobs I've ever done. It was a labor of love, but not one I'd like to repeat.
I think before I went that far I might have to weld up a custom bracket to hold the dogbone using different bolt holes. But it would be nice to get that bolt out.
I'm an experienced professional mechanic and consider it one of the worst nightmare jobs I've ever done. It was a labor of love, but not one I'd like to repeat.
I think before I went that far I might have to weld up a custom bracket to hold the dogbone using different bolt holes. But it would be nice to get that bolt out.
with the right tools and equipment, it's not so bad, how were you trying to take it out?
if you have a welder, you can get the bolt out this way:
I run nAst1 on my cars and I like it. Has some cool features.
There's no way Rodney's mounts will be stiff enough to hold the motor. On my 3500 swap I have Rodney's mounts except for the front mount and I've broken: Dogbone mount 3 times Rear trans mount bracket (stock stamped steel piece) into 3 pieces Front trans mount that comes on Rodney's mount (Universal GM poly trans mount) I'm still running a stock (new) rubber front engine mount since it seems to do little other than hold the weight of the engine.
I run nAst1 on my cars and I like it. Has some cool features.
There's no way Rodney's mounts will be stiff enough to hold the motor. On my 3500 swap I have Rodney's mounts except for the front mount and I've broken: Dogbone mount 3 times Rear trans mount bracket (stock stamped steel piece) into 3 pieces Front trans mount that comes on Rodney's mount (Universal GM poly trans mount) I'm still running a stock (new) rubber front engine mount since it seems to do little other than hold the weight of the engine.
awe **** ... looks like I have work to do on some of my mounts...
I run nAst1 on my cars and I like it. Has some cool features.
There's no way Rodney's mounts will be stiff enough to hold the motor. On my 3500 swap I have Rodney's mounts except for the front mount and I've broken: Dogbone mount 3 times Rear trans mount bracket (stock stamped steel piece) into 3 pieces Front trans mount that comes on Rodney's mount (Universal GM poly trans mount) I'm still running a stock (new) rubber front engine mount since it seems to do little other than hold the weight of the engine.
I was just wondering about the flimsy sheet metal the trans mount bolts to. I figured it would be the next weak link. Have you found a stronger replacement or a way to reinforce it?
Any chance you know how to lower timing during cranking?
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should work fine for that, did you check out the link?
sorry somehow overlooked it. just did . I'm very familiar with the method I've used it many times but had never thought of using a washer first before the nut. That makes it so muck more usable in this low clearance area. I would have never been able to get to the nut straight on I'm sure I can make that work. Thank you. I always like to learn new tricks.
sorry somehow overlooked it. just did . I'm very familiar with the method I've used it many times but had never thought of using a washer first before the nut. That makes it so muck more usable in this low clearance area. I would have never been able to get to the nut straight on I'm sure I can make that work. Thank you. I always like to learn new tricks.
For the stamped steel mount I replaced the squarish piece that sits on the mount with 1/4" steel and welded additional reinforcement to the rest with 1/4" steel.
You should never need to adjust timing during cranking. The ICM controls the timing until IIRC about 600 rpm. Below that the ICM just uses 10* advance. You can however adjust cranking fueling. I'm willing to bet that fueling more than timing is your issue.
For the stamped steel mount I replaced the squarish piece that sits on the mount with 1/4" steel and welded additional reinforcement to the rest with 1/4" steel.
You should never need to adjust timing during cranking. The ICM controls the timing until IIRC about 600 rpm. Below that the ICM just uses 10* advance. You can however adjust cranking fueling. I'm willing to bet that fueling more than timing is your issue.
the Dickman mounts are built way beefier, and I think he offers a extra tough upgrade or something IIRC, they'll hold up fine IMO, as long as you implement some kind of dogbone.
I was referring to the stamped steel mount bracket that connects the trans to the mount. Since you have an F23 and custom mounts it shouldn't be an issue.
The front trans mount I broke was an energy suspension mount and it totally seperates the polyurethane from the metal and bent the metal a good bit too. I don't believe the poly mounts Rodney uses with his trans mounts are designed to sustain the pulling motion they experience at the front side. The application for the poly mount used is IIRC all RWD applications where it's used mainly to support the transmission and also take some compression loading.
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