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Break-in oil question/Synthetic oil question. by ricksmastermix
Started on: 09-14-2013 09:26 PM
Replies: 61 (1023 views)
Last post by: rogergarrison on 09-24-2013 12:27 PM
Old Lar
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Report this Post09-18-2013 04:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Old LarSend a Private Message to Old LarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

Anyone have any real life experience having a problem running synthedic in a new engine? None of this "I knew a guy whose cousin had a friend who had trouble............." I mean someone who ran it in a new engine and it caused them grief? I am thinking this may also be one of the "urban miths" that seem so common with cars. Larry


When I had a 3.4 crate engine installed in my 88 GT (some 70,000 miles ago) I ran synthetic oil from day 1. Mobil 1 10-30 for many years then Amsoil 10-30 for the past few years. The engine has been trouble free, uses no oil and I have had no engine problems with the car.
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Report this Post09-19-2013 09:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

Anyone have any real life experience having a problem running synthedic in a new engine? None of this "I knew a guy whose cousin had a friend who had trouble............." I mean someone who ran it in a new engine and it caused them grief? I am thinking this may also be one of the "urban miths" that seem so common with cars. Larry


Engines arent cheap. Why take the chance, even if it was a myth. Myself, Id never put synthetic in a new engine of mine from the start and run the risk...unless the engine builder told me to. Anything that can cause a problem dont cause one for everyone. ie/ just because you do it with someone with HIV dont mean you will get it.

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Report this Post09-19-2013 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:


The NASA Lewis Research Center conducted tests on PTFE oil additives and concluded, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant".

Your engine, your choice.



Can "liquid moly" do that as well?

http://www.schaefferoil.com...7000-engine-oil.html

"Micron Moly®, a liquid soluble type of Moly and Schaeffer Mfg’s own
proprietary additive Penetro ."
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Marvin McInnis
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Report this Post09-19-2013 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 2.5:

Can "liquid moly" do that as well?



I don't know. The only "moly" lubricant I'm familiar with is molybdenum disulfide (MoS2), which is an insoluble solid. MoS2 is usually employed in the form of a microfine powder, either applied directly to clean metal surfaces or as an additive to oil or grease. When added to motor oil, MoS2 is subject to removal by the oil filter just like microfine PTFE powder.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-19-2013).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post09-19-2013 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:


I don't know. The only "moly" lubricant I'm familiar with is molybdenum disulfide (MoS2), which is an insoluble solid. MoS2 is usually employed in the form of a microfine powder, either applied directly to clean metal surfaces or as an additive to oil or grease. When added to motor oil, MoS2 is subject to removal by the oil filter just like microfine PTFE powder.



http://www.liqui-moly.de/li...ng=d&voiladb=web.nsf

This is the LM product I sell the most. My customers know it by name.
The MoS2 is cooked with the oil so it can stay suspended in the oil and regardless of the how long it is on the shelf the MoS2 will not sink to the bottom.
I know this because I talked personally with the Liqui Moly chemists.


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La fiera
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Report this Post09-19-2013 08:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The particle size of Ceratec is < 0,5 µm or half a billionth of a nanometer.
This product along with the 10W-60 Synthoil is what I use in my Fiero. All the LM race cars also use the same combination.
I broke my motor with 15W-40 and after that I've been using the combination above for 4 years.
I will take the motor out this winter to install a cam with a revised profile for my new intake and I will see how the engine is inside.
First time taking it apart after 4 years.
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Report this Post09-20-2013 01:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

This is the LM product I sell ...



Nothing wrong with that, but I wish you had been more up front about it.


 
quote

... < 0,5 µm or half a billionth of a nanometer.



Gibberish!

0.5 µm = 0.5 x 10-6 m
half a billionth of a nanometer = 0.5 x 10-18 m

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-20-2013).]

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64 Goat
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Report this Post09-20-2013 04:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 64 GoatSend a Private Message to 64 GoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Put a new Melling cam in my 2.8 last year because of wear at 54000 miles. The cam came with a note on engines oils to use with flat taplet cams. Do a search on Melling cam break-in or go to Melling and look up on there site. Generally you will find that the 15-40 and above oils can meet your needs. Most below will not.

Another thing I found when deciding on what to do with engine before repaired, was that GM recommend 20-50 racing oil to break in the 3.4 iron head engines for the replacement of the 2.8 in the S10. Again search for the 3.4 break-in recomendations.

The above two sites were very helpful when deciding what engine oil to use.

There were unintended results from recommending 5-30 oil in 1988 for the flat taplet cam engines.

Hope this helps.

Gas engines since 1954 - Diesel since 1957
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Report this Post09-20-2013 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lateFormulaSend a Private Message to lateFormulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
The particle size of Ceratec is < 0,5 µm or half a billionth of a nanometer.


As Marvin already stated, you better check your math. 0.5µm (one half of one micrometer) actually equals 50 nanometers.
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Report this Post09-20-2013 11:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by lateFormula:

0.5µm (one half of one micrometer) actually equals 50 nanometers.



1 µm = 1000 nm
0.5 µm = 500 nm
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Report this Post09-20-2013 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FTF EngineeringSend a Private Message to FTF EngineeringEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
One half a micrometer also equals 2.49 nanofurlongs.
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Report this Post09-20-2013 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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One half a micrometer also equals 2.49 nanofurlongs.
Which a Hot Fiero can cover in a Nanosecond.
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Report this Post09-20-2013 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the correction guys!

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Report this Post09-21-2013 01:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

One half a micrometer ... Which a Hot Fiero can cover in a Nanosecond.



500 m/sec (2.49 furlongs/sec ... ~1200 mph ... ~Mach 1.5)??? In a Fiero???

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-22-2013).]

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Report this Post09-21-2013 01:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well.......................you do need a Flux Capitator and a lightning strike to get there. Larry
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Report this Post09-22-2013 01:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for planeClick Here to Email planeSend a Private Message to planeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
After one failed rebuild where we used synthetic oil and made other mistakes, I now swear by Valvoline VR1. We race the car in LeMons and it takes a beating. The VR1 has high zinc and made for old engines. I run the 10w-30. 6 races post rebuild and we keep getting faster.
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Report this Post09-23-2013 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:

10W-60 Synthoil is what I use in my Fiero. .


Are you concerned that the 60 wt at operating temp is twice as thick as factory recommended? I do understand that synthetics can flow better or act thinner than convintional oils, but 60 wt seems excessive.
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Report this Post09-23-2013 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
60w is not much thicker than 50w. I used to run 50w dino oil in my cars in the summer, especially my street and drag racing ones. Never an issue.
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Report this Post09-23-2013 06:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think on the viscosity scale that 60 wieight is twice as thick as 50 weight. If you mix one quart of 20 with one quart of 40 you do not get 30. Larry
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Report this Post09-24-2013 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marvin McInnisClick Here to visit Marvin McInnis's HomePageSend a Private Message to Marvin McInnisEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

I think on the viscosity scale that 60 wieight is twice as thick as 50 weight.



No. The SAE Viscosity Grade is an arbitrary index. The actual measure of oil "thickness" is its kinematic viscosity, usually expressed in centiStokes (cSt). Here are the actual allowable viscosity ranges (at 100° C) for engine oils per SAE J300:

SAE 0W --> 3.8 cSt (minimum)
SAE 5W --> 3.8 cSt (min)
SAE 10W --> 4.1 cSt (min)
SAE 15W --> 5.6 cSt (min)
SAE 20W --> 5.6 cSt (min)
SAE 25W --> 9.3 cSt (min)

SAE 20 --> 5.6 - 9.3 cSt
SAE 30 --> 9.3 - 12.5 cSt
SAE 40 --> 12.5 - 16.3 cSt
SAE 50 --> 16.3 - 21.9 cSt
SAE 60 --> 21.9 - 26.1 cSt

See http://www.widman.biz/English/Tables/J300.html.

Note that you will often see two different measures of viscosity: kinematic viscosity (as above, expressed in centiStokes [cSt]) and absolute viscosity (expressed in centiPoises [cP]). To simplify somewhat, kinematic viscosity is the more useful property for free-flowing oils (e.g. engine at normal operating temperature), while absolute viscosity is more useful in situations where there the flow rate is very low (e.g. at cold start).

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-24-2013).]

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Report this Post09-24-2013 12:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:

SAE 30 --> 9.3 - 12.5 cSt
SAE 60 --> 21.9 - 26.1 cSt



I guess its a little more than twice as thick...
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Report this Post09-24-2013 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonClick Here to Email rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I measure how thick oil is by letting it run off a paint stick. Even 90w gear oil is not as thick as youd think. Its always looked to me like oil with STP or similar thickeners made 30w act like 50w.

BTW, that is how you measure paint thickness/ thinness for spraying the old school way before catalyst and specific mixes.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-24-2013).]

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