I'm running Comp Cams break in oil in my new LQ1 and was wondering how long I should go before I do an oil change. Also, I use full synthetic oil in my other vehicles and was planning to do so with this one, but I read somewhere on the Forum that it was not recommended for the LQ!. I'm having trouble making sense out that.
The break-in oil bottle should tell you how long to run it, but its probably in the 600 miles range. As for synthetic vs conventional, that is a different thread in itself. But the consensus is that synthetics have less zinc which you need for your 3.4 unless you have roller rockers then it doesn't matter. Search this forum for Syn vs. Con oil arguments
There is also some belief that synthetics in a new or newly rebuilt engine will not allow parts to wear and seat to one another. The thought is that the engine should be run on conventional oil until it has some mileage on it. The mileage differs from person to person, from a few thousand to a few ten-thousand miles before changing to synthetic.
For the flat tappet engines, Shell Rotella oil is a high zinc oil that is essential for long tappet and cam life. Rotella T6 which is a 5 W 40 viscosity or the Rotella T which is 15 W 40. The high zinc content is needed for the diesel engines, for which this oil is generally used.
I think the biggest thing to worry about is getting a lot of zinc in the oil. I used some Quaker state high milage with zinc in my new 3100 flat tappet build, that along with a can of cam break in additive and the cam break in grease seems to have done a good job. Just get some good oil with lots of zinc and some other cam break in lube and you will be fine. Really don't think that synthedic will hurt a thing, but it alone doesn't have enough zinc for the flat tappet cam. Think I will run this with a good filter for about 500 to 1,000 miles and then change it to a good oil with some cam additive thrown in. Larry
What I was suggesting is that a high zinc oil be used as the daily usage oil, not just as a break in oil. I've usually run a break in oil for about 200 miles, change, then after another 500 miles and change again.
As I understand synthetics, they have a much higher lubricating value. This doesn't allow rings to wear into the hash marks in the cylinder walls and doesn't let the valves wear into the seats or bearings into their journals. It's like sanding with dry sand paper and sanding with grease as a lubricant.
You should never use an oil specified for a diesel engine (Rotella or other) in a gasoline engine. Yes it is true that oil for diesel engines has a greater zinc concentration than today's oils for gasoline engines. And it is also true that today's oils for gasoline engines really do not have a good substitute for zinc in them, which can lead to camshaft lobe flattening on older engines that have flat tappet camshafts. The correct answer is to use an engine oil specified for a gasoline engine, and add a zinc additive during each oil change.
The reason you should never use a diesel spec oil in a gasoline engine is because the detergent additives in diesel oil is very different from what is used in an oil for a gasoline engine, and the two types of oil (gas vs diesel) are truly not compatible to the other type of engine for this reason.
Please stop spreading the idea of using diesel oil in a gasoline engine. It is a bad idea.
I am sure you are right about the additives in diesel oil, but I doubt that the detergent difference has much effect during a 200 mile breakin period. Larry
You should never use an oil specified for a diesel engine (Rotella or other) in a gasoline engine. Yes it is true that oil for diesel engines has a greater zinc concentration than today's oils for gasoline engines. And it is also true that today's oils for gasoline engines really do not have a good substitute for zinc in them, which can lead to camshaft lobe flattening on older engines that have flat tappet camshafts. The correct answer is to use an engine oil specified for a gasoline engine, and add a zinc additive during each oil change.
The reason you should never use a diesel spec oil in a gasoline engine is because the detergent additives in diesel oil is very different from what is used in an oil for a gasoline engine, and the two types of oil (gas vs diesel) are truly not compatible to the other type of engine for this reason.
Please stop spreading the idea of using diesel oil in a gasoline engine. It is a bad idea.
I just passed along what I've been told by a goodly number of people, including PFF members. You know how rumors are. If repeated enough, they become fact. Now, your side of the story is the first time I've heard that bit of information. I do know 2 diesel mechanics that are also Fiero specific mechanics, and part of what I related above came from them. One of them has been running Rotella in his bored and stroked 2.8 for quite a few years. But I would agree that if a zinc supplement were added to our current oils, it might also be beneficial.
I run reg dino oil for 10K before switching to synthetics. Like mentioned, reg oil lets the cyl walls, rings and bearings all 'wear in' before adding super slick syn.
Everyone is entitle to chose what to put on their engine, that is why I use Liqui Moly in my cars and my customers cars. And is the only oil brand I use in my shop for service. Every engine I build has to have this oil brand in it for the warranty, otherwise the warranty is voided.
You should never use an oil specified for a diesel engine (Rotella or other) in a gasoline engine. Yes it is true that oil for diesel engines has a greater zinc concentration than today's oils for gasoline engines. And it is also true that today's oils for gasoline engines really do not have a good substitute for zinc in them, which can lead to camshaft lobe flattening on older engines that have flat tappet camshafts. The correct answer is to use an engine oil specified for a gasoline engine, and add a zinc additive during each oil change.
The reason you should never use a diesel spec oil in a gasoline engine is because the detergent additives in diesel oil is very different from what is used in an oil for a gasoline engine, and the two types of oil (gas vs diesel) are truly not compatible to the other type of engine for this reason.
Please stop spreading the idea of using diesel oil in a gasoline engine. It is a bad idea.
I always get a laugh out of people seeking to stop the spread of "bad information" by posting some unsubstantiated nonsense.
If you had ever looked at a bottle of Shell Rotella T6 (the oil being recommended above) you would see that in addition to API CJ-4, it meets the API SM spec, which is a gasoline engine oil spec that is suitable for use in all of the 2010 and earlier automotive gasoline engines. API SM was replaced by SN in 2010, so 2011+ model year gasoline engines should use API SN oil (until SN itself is replaced).
I always get a laugh out of people seeking to stop the spread of "bad information" by posting some unsubstantiated nonsense.
If you had ever looked at a bottle of Shell Rotella T6 (the oil being recommended above) you would see that in addition to API CJ-4, it meets the API SM spec, which is a gasoline engine oil spec that is suitable for use in all of the 2010 and earlier automotive gasoline engines.
I was looking at this just the other day and I concur.
Pretty much all of the diesel labeled oils carry the API SM rating and hence should be suitable for use in cars as well. On the flip side, however, the traditional "car" oils did not carry any diesel certs.
So it seems the diesel oils are rated to be able to be used in gas engines, but you shouldn't use gas oil in your diesel.
Bottom line? The people who say diesel oil in a gas engine is a problem have not RTFM.
Anyone have any real life experience having a problem running synthedic in a new engine? None of this "I knew a guy whose cousin had a friend who had trouble............." I mean someone who ran it in a new engine and it caused them grief? I am thinking this may also be one of the "urban miths" that seem so common with cars. Larry
Yes. My wife bought a new 88 Beretta GT. At the first oil change, I put Slick 50 in it. By the 2nd oil change schedule, it was already beginning to smoke a little. When discussing it with the dealer, I told them what I'd done and they told me that it should be drained and Slick 50 shouldn't be put in the car until it had at least 30,000 miles on it. They changed the oil, omitting the Slick 50 and in a couple of weeks the smoking went away. I later put the Slick 50 back in and we drive the car for nearly 4 years without engine problems before we traded.
No. The car began to smoke within the first 3000 miles. The Chevy dealer's take was that the Slick 50 wasn't allowing rings and valves to seat properly. After changing to regular 5 w 30 oil, the smoking went away shortly. Then later we went back with the Slick 50 without problems.
Slick 50 is some form of synthetic additive, probably an early form of synthetic oil. Friction reduction is it's main purpose.
Slick 50 was a teflon additive popular in it's day. The rings in the engine in question should have been broken in with the first oil from the factory. Hard to believe that an additive could cause rings to get "un broken in" if they wern't smoking before the change with slick 50. I think most of this is just urban mith combined with mechanics telling people things to get them off their backs when things don't go right. Now I have simithinthedic Quaker state in a newly bored 3100, we will see if it starts burning oil. Now with two miles on it there is not a tiny puff of smoke. Larry
Many cars use synthetic from the factory... BMWs, Chevrolets, etc....Now, they may have an additive that is not talked about, but it doesn't seem to be that way.
I think what's fogging the issue is that some are thinking of modern day engines as opposed to our older technology engines. Remember that most engine rebuilders, whether the local performance shop or the larger rebuilding services just don't have the technology available to build an engine the way the OEM manufacturer does. I recently saw a segment on building engines where they actually ran the engines for a short period of time before they were completely assembled. This was a break in process.
I found similar discussions on Third Gen forums and also on a Corvette forum. Here's something from the Corvette forum, that includes info from Bob Gibbs, a popular syndicated TV gearhead and automotive adviser.
Slick 50 is some form of synthetic additive, probably an early form of synthetic oil.
No. "Slick 50" is microfine PTFE (e.g. powdered Teflon) suspended in a mineral oil carrier. PTFE is a solid, and it remains so when suspended in your motor oil. Your oil filter will remove all but the finest particles within a few hundred miles of driving; if you are lucky it won't totally clog the oil filter in the process. Does Slick 50 work? Every independent lab test I've ever seen says, "No."
Dupont, which invented PTFE, owns the Teflon trademark, and still manufactures microfine Teflon states: "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines."
The NASA Lewis Research Center conducted tests on PTFE oil additives and concluded, "In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of lubricant".
Federal Trade Commission, July 1996: Ads For Slick 50 Are False And Misleading. "According to the FTC, ads for Slick 50 that tout tests showing improved engine performance are false and its claims of reduced engine wear are unsubstantiated."
Your engine, your choice.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-17-2013).]
Many cars use synthetic from the factory... BMWs, Chevrolets, etc....Now, they may have an additive that is not talked about, but it doesn't seem to be that way.
Thats totally true. But those engines are designed to use it from the start. I dont know if they specially prep new parts like rings or what. Maybe they use a synthetic break in oil made for manufacturers. I dont know what else to tell you, but Ive never heard an engine shop tell you to run synthetic right out of the box. I know Corvettes have used Mobile 1 from the start (at least from first change) for years...but you dont have any way of knowing what was put in at the factory. I do know in 1955 chevys new 265 v8s using regular oil had a problem. The solution was if the customer complained of oil use or smoke, they poured Bon Ami scouring powder thru it for a short time to 'scratch up' hardened smooth surfaces, then changed to fresh oil. It stopped the oil burning. Mustangs around 88 with 5.0 engines also had a problem with oil burning out of the factory. Their fix was installing higher pressure piston rings (fit cylinders tighter). I dont know if it was an oil problem or not but part of it was they used looser fitting rings to increase gas mileage ratings. I had one.
Thats totally true. But those engines are designed to use it from the start. I dont know if they specially prep new parts like rings or what. Maybe they use a synthetic break in oil made for manufacturers. I dont know what else to tell you, but Ive never heard an engine shop tell you to run synthetic right out of the box. I know Corvettes have used Mobile 1 from the start (at least from first change) for years...but you dont have any way of knowing what was put in at the factory. I do know in 1955 chevys new 265 v8s using regular oil had a problem. The solution was if the customer complained of oil use or smoke, they poured Bon Ami scouring powder thru it for a short time to 'scratch up' hardened smooth surfaces, then changed to fresh oil. It stopped the oil burning. Mustangs around 88 with 5.0 engines also had a problem with oil burning out of the factory. Their fix was installing higher pressure piston rings (fit cylinders tighter). I dont know if it was an oil problem or not but part of it was they used looser fitting rings to increase gas mileage ratings. I had one.
My guess is that tolerances are tighter and you don't fit the parts through wear, like in the "old days". I would think a dealer could tell someone what to run, as they probably install crate engines and put in the first oil What does Jasper or other manufacturers tell someone to run? It shouldn't be a mystery, maybe no one has asked.
In the first post by mechtech2, he gives a link that could be enlightening as to the reason high ZDDP (zinc) is recommended for flat tappet engines. If it's recommended for continual use, it should be used in the early stages of an engine's life. Rather than just post his link, I thought there was also some interesting discussion in his thread.
Most, if not all, engine manufacturers use moly faced rings and plateau honing on the cylinders. This gives almost instant break-in. Diesel oil has a much more aggresive detergent package because of the high sulfur content of the fuel. Could cause an old gunked-up engine to start burning oil. Now that we have low sulfur fuel, the oil requirement may be the same.
I just talked to my buddy at Jasper. They recommend regular oil till at least the first oil change if changing to synthetic. He also says a few specific engines like Ford 5.4 require synthetic out of the box.
Oil serves 3 purposes: lubrication, cushioning and cooling. Not all grades can do the three at the same time. Some will do the cooling better than the other can do the cushioning and lubrication and viceversa. The thinner oils flow fast at start up and they are designed for economy but when it comes to cushioning or cooling they cannot deliver, specially as the temperature goes up. So, pick your oil grade based on what environment your Fiero mostly lives.
For example; I use 10W-60(yes, sixty) Synthetic. Most of its life, my Fiero lives between 3000-7500 for 30 to 40 minutes continuously on different loads and very high ambient temperatures. And those 30 to 40 minutes sessions happen about 4 times per day on a given weekend.
Flow at start up is not my concern, but the cushioning and cooling part is what I'm looking for as far as protection. To compensate for the start up flow , I just crank the engine for the first start up for about 5 to 10 seconds until I have full pressure and then I start it, and that is knowing that my 10W-60 Synthoil can still flow at -50F.
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 09-17-2013).]
I am really thinking that it doesn't matter much except the part about having enough zinc or other things designed for cam wear. I would think you would like the best lube you can get when things are tight, but don't really know. I think just put in some good oil with zinc and some cam break in additive and start it up, run it a few hundred miles and change the oil with some more cam breakin additive and drive the car. Larry
[This message has been edited by trotterlg (edited 09-17-2013).]
I use 5w30 synthetic in the Sebring (still dont leak or use any oil between annual changes after 100K+ miles). Cars Ive had that I used regular oil in was 10w30 winter, 10w40 (or 50) in summer. I also like the cushioning effect of the oil more than anything else.
Oil serves 3 purposes: lubrication, cushioning and cooling. ... The thinner oils flow fast at start up and they are designed for economy but when it comes to cushioning or cooling they cannot deliver, specially as the temperature goes up.
Please explain. Are you saying that the specific heat of engine oil changes with temperature?
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This is the product I use on my Fiero. Phosphorous= 1200ppm Zink= 1100ppm
You will get about the same levels of zinc and phosphorus from the Mobil 1 High Mileage synthetic oils:
Phosphorus = 1000 ppm Zinc = 1100 ppm
If you are concerned about zinc and phosphorus, the Exxon/Mobil chart linked above is interesting and informative. For instance, it looks like the Mobil 1 "High Mileage" oils may be a better choice for flat-tappet engines than "regular" Mobil 1, regardless of mileage.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-18-2013).]
Yup, I have quoted Mobil 1 for a few years. They put their info online for all to see. Frankly, I have used Mobil 1 in all my vehicles without issue, Fieros included. I am sure there is a known good level of zinc to have in your oil, but you have to wonder at what point is it just excessive and more of a marketing trick.
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Originally posted by Marvin McInnis:
You will get about the same levels of zinc and phosphorus from the Mobil 1 High Mileage synthetic oils:
Phosphorus = 1000 ppm Zinc = 1100 ppm
If you are concerned about zinc and phosphorus, the Exxon/Mobil chart linked above is interesting and informative. For instance, it looks like the Mobil 1 "High Mileage" oils may be a better choice for flat-tappet engines than "regular" Mobil 1, regardless of mileage.
"Please explain. Are you saying that the specific heat of engine oil changes with temperature?"
What I mean is that as the oil gets hotter its viscosity changes proportionally with it. And if the temperature goes above the oil flashing point the oil starts to evaporate, it also looses its ability to cool and cushion. And this loss of cushioning affects oil pressure directly. A specific viscosity might be good for low engine speeds and low load at moderate ambient temperature, but if any of those factors changes past the oil limitations engine failure is most likely to occur. That is why we realistically have to consider what type of environment is the car going to spend most of its time and use the proper oil grade and type accordingly.
Toyota found out the hard way. Their NASCAR engines (Still pushrod engines) that were built by TRD was running synthetic oils and they were having very early failure. Sometimes even in the testing phase. They changed to a high ZDDP oii and discovered they could get much longer life and serviceability from the engines. Multiple races in some cases.
Again, we should be talking about the older engines that were and are built much differently than today's modern fuel injected, roller rocker, overhead cam,twin cam, tight tolerance engines, not the type engines used in the Honda Hybrid that uses 0 W 10 oil.
It was already recommended that if you are using a commercially rebuilt engine, ask them for recommendations. If you built it yourself---well, just ask for opinions on your favorite automotive forum.
What I mean is that as the oil gets hotter its viscosity changes proportionally with it.
I agree, but at normal engine operating temperatures viscosity is unrelated to an oil's heat capacity (i.e. cooling ability).
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And if the temperature goes above the oil flashing point the oil starts to evaporate, it also looses its ability to cool ...
If your oil ever reaches its flash point you have problems a lot more serious than viscosity and cooling ability. What oil temperatures are actually present in your engine? The hot spots for oil in most engines are 1) the piston rings, 2) the underside of the piston head, and 3) around the exhaust valve guides, but in a water-cooled engine a sustained crankcase oil temperature higher than 240-260° F is cause for concern. For comparison, the flash point of Mobil 1 5W30 (the viscosity specified by GM for our Fieros) is ~450° F (230 C).
Of course, I'm not trying to tell you what oil to use in your car. Your engine, your choice.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-18-2013).]
No worries mate! 5W-30 is for fuel economy and everyday driving normal conditions exactly where GM made the Fiero for, to be driven at normal conditions. Since that is not my case and I use my Fiero on the track 95% of the time, I chose an oil that is designed for those specific conditions and on top of that I also have an oil cooler. I'd rather have the extra insurance!
