Originally posted by theogre: Problem is you can't be bothered finding out how PFF works and even post this thread in the wrong section. Now you're trying save us?
This thread is in exactly the correct place. It is a thread about the forum itself. Your response is exactly the problem tshark is referring to, because instead of discussing the topic, you have instead tried to insult him by insinuating he's posting in the wrong place, doesn't know how the forum works, is trying to save us, and if he doesn't agree with Cliff, then well he should just leave.
If this is to be the "agree with Cliff" forum, then perhaps it's time to remove all the bits about Fieros. Last I looked, this was a forum for the discussion of Fieros, not whether or not one agrees with Cliff. It is perfectly acceptable to point out flaws in the forum, in a thread on the forum, in General. Yes, Cliff can read those suggestions or ignore them. But that's irrelevant. The attitude that we must not question Cliff ever, is a fallacy.
Patrick, ITR, what the heck? Are we gonna have another war in this thread?
Ogre, do you have anything constructive to add?
Rodney, I'd agree. Lots of people got to the point where they've had it, due to one or 2 threads. And for what?
Some people don't get along. I understand that. It's in the DNA or something. Rodney, are you willing to let bygones be bygones?
Sardonyx247 doesn't respond to me. I don't know why.
That was inevitable. When you call out certain bahavior, and the people who are commonly exhibiting that behavior believe they have done nothing wrong, you get exactly what just happened. You had to expect it on some level right? I participated just enough to illustrate the issue. I'm done with it now.
I had hope. I'm not trying to call anyone out. I'm trying to open a discussion. There are and will be strong feelings on this. I do not want Cliff to police our behavior. We should be mature enough to police ourselves. I understand that some remarks just strike some people wrong. I understand that people can have a bad day.
Others in the future may read this thread. Are our postings contributing to making PFF a better place? I know some of mine haven't. When this thread is read in the future by people in my position, what conclusion will they reach?
My point earlier was that a few bad apples can spoil it for everyone. It doesn't matter if it's a forum, a church, a neighborhood, or whatever. Can we cut each other a bit of slack? Maybe give someone the benefit of doubt? I'd like to think that I'm an asset to PFF, even if only in a minor way.
A number of people have posted on this thread. I'd say a fair slice of the forum membership, in terms of tenure, knowledge, and recognition. How many of us can avoid arguments with each other through the end of 2016? No fair taking a hiatus.
This is exactly the problem. The introduction of the ratings bar, and thus mob banning, was roughly the same point when things started going downhill here.
I agree and I say this because I just gave tshark a positive rating which brought up his ratings bar because I was the 50th person to rate him. Notice the red? That's exactly what everyone talks about on here. No matter what you say or do and no matter how innocent the post may be, pricks on here simply send the negatives your way. I GUARANTEE his red is because of this thread. He has said nothing harmful or insultive to anyone to warrant any kind of ratings. I have dealt with tshark since day 1 of his membership here. I see his other posts so I know his personality and for him to get that much red proves that people are simply liars on here especially those that say "I don't rate anyone".........bullshit.
I have been friends with many people who have exited this place due to the negativity. They were innovators with these cars, Curly(Madcurl), Troy(Troyboy), Dave(Bloozeberry) and many others. I have been told personally by certain other members that they no longer post on here due to death threats via PM, certain members who are black were threatened to be "lynched" via PM. Some people on here seem to be angels in disguise on this forum but they are nasty, rotten people who are known only by a screen name. What you see posted on here is NOTHING compared to the violence that goes on in private via PM.
Your participation in this forum since June has been largely limited to publicly passing judgement on certain members here that you don't like.
Yet, you haven't got the integrity to allow us to know what your involvement has been in this forum prior to June of this year.
Purposely hiding your PFF history while criticizing the behavior of other members here is rather lame to say the least.
I was going to question this. It seems that he was a member on here before since he talks about the past.
I have nothing to hide. I was banned many years ago when I was a raging alcoholic. I insulted many people on here and deserved to get banned. Now that I am married with children and no longer drink, all is well.
Lets start in the beginning with JohnWPB and myself:
Years ago JohnWPB and I were quite friendly to each other. I even made a web page on my site showing where to go to buy his reproduction stickers. I have several of these on my web page showing where to get a part I do not sell and I am happy to make them for anyone to help them out.
Many years ago when I had a $10 minimum purchase on my web page Dave(sardonyx247) placed an order for $7.00 with shipping. So I charged him $8 instead of my posted $10 minimum. Dave emailed me and asked why I charged him $8 for his $7 purchase. I told him because my web page clearly stated I have a $10 minimum and I could have charged you $10. So Dave took that as an insult and for the last 15+ years has been posting here and there whenever he can find the opportunity to take a jab at me. Well after 15+ years of enduring these jabs I had enough and decided to fight back and show him what it feels like. So I go in his brake booster topic and start posting negative things about his brake boosters. JohnWPB sees this and instantly hates me for bashing Dave and his brake boosters. So from that day on JohnWPB also rips on me every chance he can find. Where was JohnWPB all these years when Dave(sardonyx247) was taking those jabs at me?
Many here have met me personally at Fiero shows and such. I've been to like 100+ Fiero shows, club meeting etc in years past. Of all the people here that have met me personally at Fiero shows and such can anyone of you say anything negative about me after meeting me personally?
I have to say offhand the only people I have had a problem with here is Mera7 (In my opinion a compulsive/pathological liar), Slammed (In my opinion a compulsive/pathological liar) and Dave (sardonyx247). I openly admit I have a serious personal problem with compulsive/pathological liars.
Rodney there are two things that are certain. One if you are here long enough you will have a tussle with someone as it is the nature of forums in general. Even the most peaceful person can be prompted to let go after so long.
The other given is if you are in business you will always have the unreasonable customer. I have had people that I have fixed issues for over and above what they should or could expect and yet they are mad because I did not come out and put the part on for them and have the salesman killed.
Forums need to be taken with thick skin and if it get rough some just need to walk away for a bit.
Originally posted by IMSA GT: I agree and I say this because I just gave tshark a positive rating which brought up his ratings bar because I was the 50th person to rate him. Notice the red? That's exactly what everyone talks about on here. No matter what you say or do and no matter how innocent the post may be, pricks on here simply send the negatives your way. I GUARANTEE his red is because of this thread. He has said nothing harmful or insultive to anyone to warrant any kind of ratings. I have dealt with tshark since day 1 of his membership here. I see his other posts so I know his personality and for him to get that much red proves that people are simply liars on here especially those that say "I don't rate anyone".........bullshit.
I have been friends with many people who have exited this place due to the negativity. They were innovators with these cars, Curly(Madcurl), Troy(Troyboy), Dave(Bloozeberry) and many others. I have been told personally by certain other members that they no longer post on here due to death threats via PM, certain members who are black were threatened to be "lynched" via PM. Some people on here seem to be angels in disguise on this forum but they are nasty, rotten people who are known only by a screen name. What you see posted on here is NOTHING compared to the violence that goes on in private via PM.
Mostly agree, but to be fair, madcurl was getting to be very annoying, always attacking "kit cars" and acting like he was superior because he spent so much money "tweaking" his cars instead of just buying a kit. It was getting very old and annoying, and when people started calling him on it, he got upset and ran off. He was being quite disrespectful in many threads (not that others weren't as well, but c'est la vie).
It's very unfortunate that troyboy stopped posting here though. But I can totally understand why he would. The bigotry, not just in this forum but in the car scene of the US as a whole, is really unacceptable. It's really very depressing.
IMSA, thanks for the kind words. To be fair, I think I got a bunch of bad ratings in OT, in 1 particular thread. Emotions were running high.
Wow, I have a bar. 50 ratings!
I know this has been brought up before, and this has nothing to do with the ratings bar itself. Just to counteract things like what happened with IMSA's past. Could we revisit out negative ratings, perhaps monthly? If we can't remember why we rated someone negatively, make it a neutral. Maybe we DO remember why.
I also want to state that some members on PFF have been genuinely altruistic toward me, and I appreciate that.
I am convinced that there are many great members on this forum--possibly many who don't post. I suspect that most of us would get along in person. I have been planning to meet various members at certain events, through 2019. Sometimes, it's nice to put faces to screen names. Each of us is a real person.
I'm still a work in progress, just like my Fiero. I put myself completely into everything I do. Sometimes, I make some mis-steps. It is sometimes easy to get frustrated. Sometimes, when we're looking for encouragement, it seems that the only thing flowing is negativity. I have thank-you cards from years past. I let them go where they will. I may not need them at the time, but I usually find one when I need it most. 2016 has been a terrible year for me, personally. The various things aren't important, but I want to make the most of every day, and minimize the bad news, hence this thread.
It's not about just having a thick skin; it's about energy. When I visit this forum, I want to get pumped up, energized, and excited to work on my Fiero.
Mostly agree, but to be fair, madcurl was getting to be very annoying, always attacking "kit cars" and acting like he was superior because he spent so much money "tweaking" his cars instead of just buying a kit. It was getting very old and annoying, and when people started calling him on it, he got upset and ran off. He was being quite disrespectful in many threads (not that others weren't as well, but c'est la vie).
It's very unfortunate that troyboy stopped posting here though. But I can totally understand why he would. The bigotry, not just in this forum but in the car scene of the US as a whole, is really unacceptable. It's really very depressing.
I remember Curley never used to be a fan of kit cars and voiced his opinion in most of those threads and I do remember several arguements that started due to his opinion. He did gain a lot of negative votes or arrow movement towards the left. It is still very depressing for me to see all of this slowly fall apart over the years.
I know this has been brought up before, and this has nothing to do with the ratings bar itself. Just to counteract things like what happened with IMSA's past. Could we revisit out negative ratings, perhaps monthly? If we can't remember why we rated someone negatively, make it a neutral. Maybe we DO remember why.
That is the big problem. When you have multiple accounts on here just to sign up, post enough to rate people, and abandon your screen name and start the process over, there is no way to change the rating. I know that I have negatives from some past members. Some have moved on and some have passed away. They are no longer on here but because their account is still active, the rating is permanent. There are members on here since 1999 that have 200 posts. I just saw one the other day so Cliff cannot even guess which account to delete based on usage because he could be killing an active account. However, once a person is banned, one of your ratings is removed.
I immediately received negative ratings when I created my new account after being banned in 2006. People just don't forgive and forget on here. They hold on to the negativity.
Originally posted by tshark: I know this has been brought up before, and this has nothing to do with the ratings bar itself. Just to counteract things like what happened with IMSA's past. Could we revisit out negative ratings, perhaps monthly? If we can't remember why we rated someone negatively, make it a neutral. Maybe we DO remember why.
The problem with this is that it requires people to make a conscious choice to do so. Humans are lazy, and if there is no direct personal benefit to an action, most people will simply not take that action. This is especially true when many of the ratings are from people who are no longer on the forum. The account is still there, but they don't use it. However, this is exactly one of the things I took into consideration when making my previous suggestion in this thread, about how to revamp the ratings system to be more beneficial to the site.
People just don't forgive and forget on here. They hold on to the negativity.
Well, I guess it depends on who created the negativity in the first place, and whether that negativity continued with the new username.
I've been aware of several banned members (with new usernames) whose behavior gave them away very shortly after their return. Different name, same crap.
Having said that, I don't know who you were previously. Maybe that's for the better.
As far as ratings go, I picked up the habit of going through about every six months and reevaluating somebody's ratings by how they were conducting themselves at that time. Many people, I changed ratings back from negative to neutral, and sometimes from positive to neutral. This was mostly based on how a person conducted themselves within the forum, and how they treated other members. Half of the time, the rating may not have had anything to do with a direct exchange I had with the person, just being about how the person was acting towards others. If they were harassing, insulting, stalking other members from thread to thread and just griefing them for no reason, I expressed my disapproval of this through the rating system. I do believe that sometimes people just go through bad patches, so I do reevaluate from time to time. Like Dobey, and IMSA said, many people make up their minds about someone and then the rating becomes permanent and never changes.
This is important in my opinion. I try not to judge people, just behavior. Behavior can change, people are a trickier thing to change. I've had arguments with people I still respect afterwards and don't neg them. It depends on how someone conducts themselves more than anything. Just my $.02.
[This message has been edited by ITR SOL (edited 09-25-2016).]
Sure. Arguments aren't necessarily bad. Name-calling, disrespect, etc, I don't care for.
I have often disagreed with various members on PFF, including some of you. We'll probably continue to agree on some things, and disagree on others. Ratings shouldn't be for these types on things, IMO; rather, for how we treat people, as you mentioned. Sometimes, I've seen small things just totally set some members off. Of course, small is a matter of perspective and is a purely relative term. I've also seen what I took to be well-meaning remarks result in invective.
Sometimes, there are misunderstandings, perhaps due to sensitivity, pre-conceived notions, or the absense of body language and inflection in this format of communication.
The physical people in the real world have been fine. Understand that, other than one show a year, PFF is really my only contact with Fiero people. If there are Fiero events listed in threads, but after the event, crickets, where is the excitement? If the people who attended the event weren't fired up, how could anyone reading about the event on PFF be interested in attending?
Look through the technical, general, and mall sections. Technical isn't too bad, but won't get anyone into Fieros, and won't keep them on PFF. The Mall is mostly people trying to sell their Fiero, or get out of Fieros, with lots of negative posts. Events is barely worth reading. I'm sorry, but it's no fun at all. General is really the only area to keep someone. And what tone do the posts there have?
What I have found is it all starts with ones self. Be the one who is involved, be the one who helps spread the word and be "positive", go to events, take pics, build excitement, help others, welcome newbies, foster excitement.
Regarding nasty posts, it is said that a small percentage of the population is responsible for a large percentage of crime. Statistics like that also compare to the unpleasantness one might experience on the forum.
A number of people have posted on this thread. I'd say a fair slice of the forum membership, in terms of tenure, knowledge, and recognition. How many of us can avoid arguments with each other through the end of 2016? No fair taking a hiatus.
I figured someone was playing around and switched tshark back to neutral to try and mess with his rating bar. I rated tshark positive and it brought it back. I've had my share of exploits in T/OT and other run-ins. Mine is probably a big red mess but I don't really care. I'm still here.
Edit: could have been that someone had tshark neg'd and switch him to a neutral......I'd rather think it that way.
[This message has been edited by Jason88Notchie (edited 09-26-2016).]
Haha, when I first read this thread I thought of one specific person and wondered if he'd post. Sure enough... I can understand you not wanting to stay on here due to some of the behavior. If people being mean to each other online can make you not want to drive your car, maybe you just don't really like your car? Or you need a safe space or something?
Haha, when I first read this thread I thought of one specific person and wondered if he'd post. Sure enough... I can understand you not wanting to stay on here due to some of the behavior. If people being mean to each other online can make you not want to drive your car, maybe you just don't really like your car? Or you need a safe space or something?
Originally posted by TommyRocker: If people being mean to each other online can make you not want to drive your car, maybe you just don't really like your car? Or you need a safe space or something?
No. People being disrespectful to each other just motivates me to follow other, more enjoyable interests. My resources are limited, so I want something that brings me joy. If PFF is a dreary, hostile place, it's not bringing me joy. My Fiero is supposed to be a social thing.
I don't drink, but imagine that you liked beer, and liked to drink. There is beer, but no one around to enjoy it with. There is one watering hole, but it's a hostile place. After a while, the bickering, name-calling, etc, just get old. They suck the life out of enjoying your beer.
I'm not the sort to sit at home. I like to do things.
I truly enjoy my cars. This forum is just a great place to seek advice and knowledge from those who have likely encountered issues with their cars prior to my ownership of two Fieros. That some things go south on the forum, well, it's a shame. But I don't take it personally, and I enjoy seeing the many opinions and facts alike that we all share. That some of us are more passionate about it, is just a fact of life. All in all, the benefits this forum offers, far outweigh drama that is sure to occur from time to time. I check in daily, post once in a while, but reap the benefits each time I drive my cars.
A very simple thought experiment; Would some of you have made some of the statements you have made if you were face-to-face with the "other person"......? I am not claiming perfection in myself....But we need to be more open to differences of opinion...and more civil in our posts.
Tshark is simply making an observation that at times the discussion wavers off the center line of civility....and his observation will hopefully have the affect of bringing us back towards center....
I've got news for you tshark, the bickering you see on PFF didn't start just recently. In fact, there has been 'bad blood' amongst Fiero folks since way before I first got involved with Fieros back in the mid 1990's. It was plainly evident in the old email lists back before forums were even invented. It carried over to this forum almost immediately when it began. So don't despair, this is all just par for the course. I usually hang around for a while, get fed up with the constant dribble and bickering, go away for a few months or years, then out of the blue I get started working on my car again and find myself right back here where the same old crap is still going on. Unfortunately you will never change the behavior here... it is too entrenched.
Formula, it'll certainly never change if we don't acknowledge the issue and try to stop doing it. But yes, how many get fed up, leave, and don't come back. Meanwhile, some members seem to rejoice in this, that they've ”won”.
I truly enjoy my cars. This forum is just a great place to seek advice and knowledge from those who have likely encountered issues with their cars prior to my ownership of two Fieros. That some things go south on the forum, well, it's a shame. But I don't take it personally, and I enjoy seeing the many opinions and facts alike that we all share. That some of us are more passionate about it, is just a fact of life. All in all, the benefits this forum offers, far outweigh drama that is sure to occur from time to time. I check in daily, post once in a while, but reap the benefits each time I drive my cars.
it'll certainly never change if we don't acknowledge the issue and try to stop doing it. But yes, how many get fed up, leave, and don't come back. Meanwhile, some members seem to rejoice in this, that they've ”won”.
Yep, and also its best if we press on and be the antithesis of those who won't change for the better, people most likely will be able to see the contrast.
Sadly Death threats etc here are major bad but shouldn't shock anyone. If "you" go "viral" for any reason on FB YT etc then most will get Very ugly posts, stalkers, death threats, and even police FBI and other govmnt agencies attention for many.
When people are so mad, racist, or whatever, or just want to drive others away by terrorizing... this thread won't help.
But this is not really a "discussion" thread because some are too sheltered or narrow minded to notice and anyone don't buy the Kumbaya plan, then "your view and posts are nothing " etc.
Cliff made PFF because didn't like other mail lists and bbs/forums that had moderators that ban everyone didn't agree w/ them or just didn't like. I saw several of them doing this for Fiero and still see this on other car and gun sites. Most of those for Fiero are now long gone and forgotten.
If done in PM Email etc then copy/past (Save a hard and soft copies of PM etc) and forward to Cliff and let him know. Cliff can read all PM but have more important things to do... So what's going on in my life? Google blocked Ad $. Google Unban PFF but Cliff does have to keep up w/ notice button etc or Google will ban and likely permanently next time.
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Originally posted by tshark: I know this has been brought up before, and this has nothing to do with the ratings bar itself. Just to counteract things like what happened with IMSA's past. Could we revisit out negative ratings, perhaps monthly? If we can't remember why we rated someone negatively, make it a neutral. Maybe we DO remember why.
For the record... Getting any points from me, you have to do something special to get me be to bother.
You dobey and Most others do not have any + or - points.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-27-2016).]
Originally posted by ITR SOL: Way to show EXACTLY the attitude that has been running people off Ogre. You're right we don't have to do anything, including being decent human beings to others looking to be a part of our community. I've watched your demeanor sour over the years, along with several other members.
Statements from you are new or change your user name? Registered: Jun 2016 "I've watched your [and] several other members?" Why should anyone believe you?
"I've watched your demeanor sour over the years" Duh. The Ogre... Demeanor is always partly to play a role, similar to Shrek, and other reasons and then had a stroke. One reason is PFF has Many users pushing for Years like using front calipers on rear axle then calling me a moron and far worse but most of them, like me, don't bother giving neg points. I'll never support and even fight GA and some other "upgrades" or TFS and others vendors pretending to be friends but sell many things are unsafe or illegal for street use all to make $ because I've drove a wrecker and work in Junkyards to see results and aftermath of enough crashes for several lifetimes and have Zero respect for people doing illegal and unsafe thing to cars. Even then I try to help when they have problems w/ engine etc won't work.
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Originally posted by IMSA GT: I immediately received negative ratings when I created my new account after being banned in 2006. People just don't forgive and forget on here. They hold on to the negativity.
Have you and some others read Cliff's whatever "TOS" and posts related to multiple account? Multiple accounts was always not allowed. Banned Users even more so. Cliff can ignore that policy when users have forgot to update email then lost password, likely even some banned users wait a while and don't make trouble. But Cliff has ban Many accounts and blocked IP addresses for spam and people trying multiple accounts to "unban" themselves. And Cliff does remove posts and some treads too and Not thrown in The Trash Can for spam and some other reasons.
Have you and some others read Cliff's whatever "TOS" and posts related to multiple account? Multiple accounts was always not allowed. Banned Users even more so.
Yes, I discussed it with him when I created a new account. Rather than try to cheat the system, I emailed him about my mistakes and asked if I could sign back up to the forum. At the time, there didn't seem to be an issue with it other than being warned to keep it civil. As I said, that was 9 years ago when I was a raging drunk so I deserved to get banned back then.
Speaking of members who aren't around anymore, there are several people that haven't been around for a while and I don't know when/why they left. For example, whatever happened to Andy (Hulki U. My-BFF)? Did he have a falling out with someone, or just move on?
[This message has been edited by ITR SOL (edited 09-28-2016).]
Speaking of members who aren't around anymore, there are several people that haven't been around for a while and I don't know when/why they left. For example, whatever happened to Andy (Hulki U. My-BFF)? Did he have a falling out with someone, or just move on?
I wondered that myself. But I chock it up to life happens. Not necessarily what is going on, on an internet forum.
Sums it up perfectly. +1
for Years like using front calipers on rear axle then calling me a moron and far worse but most of them, like me, don't bother giving neg points.
