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better braking by Northwoods2
Started on: 02-01-2015 08:58 AM
Replies: 163 (3207 views)
Last post by: thesameguy on 02-18-2015 06:10 PM
BV MotorSports
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Report this Post02-09-2015 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:


This! +1

The 88 stock system is good even by today's standards....


It is, until you add more power. Then they are hopelessly sub par.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 12:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jscott1Send a Private Message to jscott1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Is same "upgrade" GA front brakes for sale as a package. I'm surprise no-one sued them yet for this and big MC. Only recently TFS says big MC goes with the GA upgrade.
See my Cave, Brake Upgrade


Who would sue them? On what grounds? That they are providing hardware to improve braking despite some people's insistence that there is nothing wrong with the Fiero brakes?

Whatever, I'm done with this thread. Just don't any of you with 80s solid rotors tail gate me unless you have good insurance.

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Report this Post02-10-2015 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:


It is, until you add more power. Then they are hopelessly sub par.


More power = need for better brakes?
Only if you drive at higher speeds or have added more weight.

Its always better to have better brakes. Better is always better.
But more HP doesn't mean the brakes need upgraded, unless your driving style will be changing.

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Report this Post02-10-2015 08:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Can downshifting shorten stopping distances on a standard trans car or is there not enough time to do it effectively?
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Report this Post02-10-2015 09:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jscott1:


Who would sue them? On what grounds? That they are providing hardware to improve braking despite some people's insistence that there is nothing wrong with the Fiero brakes?

Whatever, I'm done with this thread. Just don't any of you with 80s solid rotors tail gate me unless you have good insurance.


That's the thing, most of the parts sold as, and/or instructed to use in threads, DON'T Improve braking, I guess you see vented rotors and automaticly think better braking system..

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Report this Post02-10-2015 01:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
if you say so, It's called knowing what you are driving, I guess all old cars should be taken off the road as they ALL, have the same issue the brakes are not as good as todays cars.


If you reread my post, you'll note I qualified my scenario with "driving like a normal person" - leaving normal breaks in traffic, etc. The "two second rule" does not apply to Fieros anymore because newer cars will stop more quickly than it is capable of.

 
quote
Would you tailgate with a 4 drum brake 71 chevelle? or a 1986 f-150? knowing that there are cars that can stop in half the space.


I would not. Nor would I drive my '62 Falcon or '67 Fleetwood like I would my XJR - because they don't stop as fast and aren't as safe in an accident. I stay off the freeway as much as possible, I don't drive them during commute times as much as possible, and I stay away from other traffic as much as possible. I do not drive my older cars like a normal person - I drive them like they are mechanically inferior and need extra consideration because they are both significant performance and safety risks.

You are playing both sides of the argument - suggesting first that the Fiero is fine, then suggesting you have to drive it like a '71 Chevelle. It's one or the other, not both.

 
quote
The good part is using the fiero stock parts you can get it to stop as good as most cars made today.. just have to use the correct parts, not the chain store pads engineered for vented, soft iron rotors, and pads designed for solid rotors, There is a difference.


Except you can't. There are no "good" parts available for the OE brake system - no good pads, no good rotors. The design itself was barely adequate when the cars were made anyway. My '85 Saab will outbrake my '87 Fiero every single time*. If you'd like to believe you can obtain useful results with Fiero parts that's cool, but like jscott suggested, please stay away from me on the road - unless you happen to find yourself behind my Fleetwood or Falcon. You can probably outbrake them. Probably.


* At least with stock parts. Not anymore. Big brakes and big sticky tires gives my Fiero top notch stopping.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you are driving in todays rush hour traffic on the freeway at 75 to 80 mph, unless you can stop in 20 feet, in an emergency what is going to stop you is the car in front of you.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 04:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

Can downshifting shorten stopping distances on a standard trans car or is there not enough time to do it effectively?


Not faster than hitting the brakes hard, but could save some brake wear under normal driving.
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Report this Post02-10-2015 07:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

If you are driving in todays rush hour traffic on the freeway at 75 to 80 mph, unless you can stop in 20 feet, in an emergency what is going to stop you is the car in front of you.


no car can stop in 20 feet from 75+mph, even at 35mph it be tight
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E.Furgal

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quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


Except you can't. There are no "good" parts available for the OE brake system - no good pads, no good rotors. The design itself was barely adequate when the cars were made anyway. My '85 Saab will outbrake my '87 Fiero every single time*. If you'd like to believe you can obtain useful results with Fiero parts that's cool, but like jscott suggested, please stay away from me on the road - unless you happen to find yourself behind my Fleetwood or Falcon. You can probably outbrake them. Probably.


* At least with stock parts. Not anymore. Big brakes and big sticky tires gives my Fiero top notch stopping.


Ah, some should research, there are good brake parts, and there are companies that will put whatever compound pad you want on your core.
I question why some in this thread even own a fiero.. as clearly in their eyes they are unsafe,

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Report this Post02-10-2015 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:


no car can stop in 20 feet from 75+mph, even at 35mph it be tight


That's the point I was making
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quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
there are good brake parts, and there are companies that will put whatever compound pad you want on your core.
I question why some in this thread even own a fiero.. as clearly in their eyes they are unsafe,


You say "there are good brake parts", does this mean you are saying that the stock parts from the factory were not good enough?

As for the pads, why would anyone want to use a different material on the pads? According to many in this thread, what came with the Fiero stock is perfectly fine. Why would you want to use a different material on the pads than what came with the car from the factory?

According to many people in this thread; Anyone wanting to spend money on Grand Am Calipers, slotted rotors or installing an S-10 booster is just a waste of time and money. It will not improve upon the exceptional Fiero's stock brake system.....

Doesn't anyone else see just how stupid that last sentence sounds? ANYONE?

[This message has been edited by JohnWPB (edited 02-11-2015).]

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Report this Post02-11-2015 08:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula OwnerSend a Private Message to Formula OwnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
You say "there are good brake parts", does this mean you are saying that the stock parts from the factory were not good enough?

As for the pads, why would anyone want to use a different material on the pads? According to many in this thread, what came with the Fiero stock is perfectly fine. Why would you want to use a different material on the pads than what came with the car from the factory?

Um, because the stock parts are no longer available? On my vehicles that have the OEM pads still available, that's what I go with. Unfortunately, I can't do that on my Formula. Fortunately, I found that Wagner Thermoquiet pads work very well on my Formula.

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
According to many people in this thread; Anyone wanting to spend money on Grand Am Calipers, slotted rotors or installing an S-10 booster is just a waste of time and money. It will not improve upon the exceptional Fiero's stock brake system.....

I don't think that anyone is claiming that Fiero brakes are exceptional. However, what often happens is, someone complains about their brakes, then they describe how bad they are. At which point, from their description it becomes apparent that there is a problem with their brakes. And they want to fix it with a bigger booster, calipers, etc. without attempting to fix the underlying problem. I don't know much about pre-88 brakes, but my suspicion is, if everything is stock, and working properly, you can lock the front wheels, just like on any other non-ABS vehicle. With solid rotors, the biggest problem should be fading.

A few years ago, I finally fixed the problems with the brakes on my (completely stock) Formula (p-brake problem), and after they get warmed up, I WOULD call them exceptional now.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 09:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:


You say "there are good brake parts", does this mean you are saying that the stock parts from the factory were not good enough?

As for the pads, why would anyone want to use a different material on the pads? According to many in this thread, what came with the Fiero stock is perfectly fine. Why would you want to use a different material on the pads than what came with the car from the factory?

According to many people in this thread; Anyone wanting to spend money on Grand Am Calipers, slotted rotors or installing an S-10 booster is just a waste of time and money. It will not improve upon the exceptional Fiero's stock brake system.....

Doesn't anyone else see just how stupid that last sentence sounds? ANYONE?


no, I was commenting on the post I quoted, that said there are no good parts avail any more for the car, I don't think you are rolling into a g.m. dealership and walking out with a set of o.e.m. brake pads, or rotors with the same strength iron, todays rotors are made "soft" because todays pads make "squeak!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" and they have found making rotors with softer iron, stops most of this,, and why rotors don't last anymore and are replaced not turned, the vendors, also don't put as much "metal" in the part, but at one time they did, and when they went to the softer iron a cutter that you'd use to turn the rotors would last twice as long, that is how much of a difference, todays parts you buy, to the 80's part.

Ogre has a nice write up on why the Grand am swap is flawed..

[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 02-11-2015).]

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Report this Post02-11-2015 10:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
According to many people in this thread; Anyone wanting to spend money on Grand Am Calipers, slotted rotors or installing an S-10 booster is just a waste of time and money. It will not improve upon the exceptional Fiero's stock brake system.....

Doesn't anyone else see just how stupid that last sentence sounds? ANYONE?


A lot of this thread is just unsound. Ogre's page on brake upgrades has a lot of decent info, but also still makes some overly dramatic claims about some aspects of certain swaps. Most of the comments about the stock Fiero brakes are either on the level of OMG they are so dangerous or they are as good as modern vehicles when properly maintained. Almost nobody says eh, they are average OK brakes from the 80s. But, the fact is, they are average OK brakes from the 80s. They were designed for a 2500-2800 lbs commuter car during a time when there was a Federal speed limit of 55 MPH. If you stay under 55 MPH and maintain reasonable distance, and keep them properly maintained, then they will work just as well as they did when new. Even on a highway travelling 70-80 MPH, as long as you maintain proper distance with the vehicles in front of you and pay attention to the traffic patterns ahead of you in case of changes, you should be fine. If you take a Fiero and try to road race it with stock brakes, you will find yourself having nothing but braking problems.

I don't know if the Vibe/Matrix/Scion/Prius/Corolla/Celica rear rotors will seat properly on the Fiero hubs, but if so, the full rotor package would probably be the best option for larger diameter rotors on an otherwise stock FIero. The bias should be about the same as stock with them. Using the rear calipers from those vehicles isn't an option on stock Fiero hubs/knuckles though, as they use a drum style parking brake inside the rotor hat, rather than the lever on the piston. I'm investigating the possibility of creating custom knuckles to use the hubs for these vehicles (or possibly bolt-on hubs for other vehicles) on a Fiero, as I'd really like to move to such a design on my car, as well as lose a few pounds of weight. If I get a set designed that works well and meets my goals with them, I will likely start offering them for sale as well. They would be billet aluminum, accept a few different bolt-on hub types (including the stock 88 hubs), and have stock caliper mount position with brackets available for some standard hub configurations such as the Matrix/Vibe or C5/C6 Vette. I'm a fair bit away from getting to that point though.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree with what Dobey said, but my cars are stock and I don't race. I did just try a tip I found on here when searching under brakes. The tip was to disconnect the battery or brake light fuse and then depress the brake pedal fully with a brick or by wedging a 1x4 between the pedal and the seat and leave it depressed overnight. I did this yesterday and just got back from a test drive and the brakes definitely feel more solid and seem to have more stopping power. The theory behind this is that the thousands of tiny air bubbles in the lines migrate out of the fluid in the top of the master cylinder while it sits overnight. It did help my brakes and it was free.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 11:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 2.5Send a Private Message to 2.5Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Csjag:

I agree with what Dobey said, but my cars are stock and I don't race. I did just try a tip I found on here when searching under brakes. The tip was to disconnect the battery or brake light fuse and then depress the brake pedal fully with a brick or by wedging a 1x4 between the pedal and the seat and leave it depressed overnight. I did this yesterday and just got back from a test drive and the brakes definitely feel more solid and seem to have more stopping power. The theory behind this is that the thousands of tiny air bubbles in the lines migrate out of the fluid in the top of the master cylinder while it sits overnight. It did help my brakes and it was free.


Interesting. I've never heard of that, I have a 99 S10 I might try that on.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 11:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula OwnerSend a Private Message to Formula OwnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Fiero brakes, especially pre-88's, ARE just average for 80's vehicles. Which, for the most part were just fine. Solid rotors are not a problem for one or two hard stops. This covers 99.999% of all typical, day-to-day, grocery-getting, commuting, getting from point A to point B, use. 88 brakes are a bit better, and are probably good for 5-10 hard stops. Still not good enough for track use. However, VERY few street vehicles have brakes good enough for track duty. Nissan Z cars (370's) have the same problem. I looked into them at one point, and owners were complaining about brakes going away after 3 laps on a track. You probably have to get to the level of a Porshce or Corvette to get track-worthy brakes on a stock vehicle. I used to have a '90 Mustang 5.0, and it had small disks up front, and drums in the back. But they worked fine, so long as I didn't try to do multiple hard stops in a short period of time.

Most of the advantage of modern brakes is in the brake bias that ABS allows them to implement. With ABS, there's no need to severly limit the rear braking for fear of lockup. As for fading... most modern vehicles these days are trucks, SUV's, or crossovers. And with their weight, you'd be lucky to get 2 or 3 good hard stops before fading. And most of these vehicles are top heavy, which doesn't help.

With my Formula, I have NO concern that the typical vehicle in front of me can stop quickly enough to cause me to rear end them*. I'm more concerned that the vehicle behind me can't stop as well as I can. With that said, I still wouldn't tailgate a modern sports car. I have no illusion that they DO have the ability to stop faster than I can.

* Unless it's wet. My tires don't have good grip in the wet.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula Owner:
Most of the advantage of modern brakes is in the brake bias that ABS allows them to implement. With ABS, there's no need to severly limit the rear braking for fear of lockup. As for fading... most modern vehicles these days are trucks, SUV's, or crossovers. And with their weight, you'd be lucky to get 2 or 3 good hard stops before fading. And most of these vehicles are top heavy, which doesn't help.


Crossover is just a fancy way of saying station wagon. Most crossovers still weigh less than 4000 lbs. Most smaller SUVs do too. The only really heavy SUVs are the ones built on full frame setups like the Tahoe/Suburban. But even with the 6000 lbs weight, my Avalanche still stops better than my FIero ever did. Most modern vehicles on the road today, though, are still cars. Maybe fewer Priuses on the road than Tahoes, but most 2000+ model consumer vehicles on the road are cars.

I've got the EBC slotted USR rotors on it and EBC green stuff pads though. That's another advantage I'm hoping to be able to get out of swapping to the Matrix/Vibe hubs/brakes on my car. EBC makes rotors and pads for the applications those brakes are used on, while they've got nothing for the Fiero.
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quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
According to many people in this thread; Anyone wanting to spend money on Grand Am Calipers, slotted rotors or installing an S-10 booster is just a waste of time and money. It will not improve upon the exceptional Fiero's stock brake system.....

Doesn't anyone else see just how stupid that last sentence sounds? ANYONE?


I have no idea what you're talking about. :P

 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
But, the fact is, they are average OK brakes from the 80s. They were designed for a 2500-2800 lbs commuter car during a time when there was a Federal speed limit of 55 MPH. If you stay under 55 MPH and maintain reasonable distance, and keep them properly maintained, then they will work just as well as they did when new. Even on a highway travelling 70-80 MPH, as long as you maintain proper distance with the vehicles in front of you and pay attention to the traffic patterns ahead of you in case of changes, you should be fine. If you take a Fiero and try to road race it with stock brakes, you will find yourself having nothing but braking problems.


Fieros do have totally average '80s brakes. Not exceptional, but certainly not Cavalier or Escort bad. However, on roads today safe distance for old cars is pretty big, and I find that leaving such large gaps encourages other drivers to slot in. Driving becomes a constant effort of falling back or following way too close. In the Fleetwood (4-wheel drum, 5500lbs curb weight), for example, I just stay out of traffic for that reason. But I commute in the Fiero almost daily (3-4 days/week), and that type of super defensive driving is no fun. Even with a totally fresh brake system I never achieved encouraging results from even the Grand Am upgrade. Antequated caliper design and poor pad & rotor choices never left me with confidence.

 
quote
Originally posted by Formula Owner:

However, VERY few street vehicles have brakes good enough for track duty. Nissan Z cars (370's) have the same problem. I looked into them at one point, and owners were complaining about brakes going away after 3 laps on a track.


Nah, not so. I've tracked almost every car I own at one point or another, and found very few of them to be lacking in a material way. Admittedly, I tend to buy a certain type of car, but even still there have been a few stinkers. My SHO was terrifying! If people can't get three laps out of their Z's stock brakes (which are VERY good), it's because they are poor drivers or made poor pad choices. No reputable magazine (Evo, GRM, etc.) reported such problems with any Z since the Z32 (which also had great brakes). You can of course outdrive *any* car's brakes, but on hipo machinery like the 370Z, that's just hooning and not actually driving fast. You can always accelerate hard and brake hard and *think* you're going fast, but that isn't the same as actually doing it. The number of people I see at track days suffering that exact dilemma is kind of amazing. You can always pick those people out, too, complaining about that nonsense in the pits while people in bone stock Miatas eat a hot dog and have a soda, noting they schooled a car with twice the power.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula OwnerSend a Private Message to Formula OwnerEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Crossover is just a fancy way of saying station wagon. Most crossovers still weigh less than 4000 lbs. Most smaller SUVs do too. The only really heavy SUVs are the ones built on full frame setups like the Tahoe/Suburban. But even with the 6000 lbs weight, my Avalanche still stops better than my FIero ever did. Most modern vehicles on the road today, though, are still cars. Maybe fewer Priuses on the road than Tahoes, but most 2000+ model consumer vehicles on the road are cars.

I've got the EBC slotted USR rotors on it and EBC green stuff pads though. That's another advantage I'm hoping to be able to get out of swapping to the Matrix/Vibe hubs/brakes on my car. EBC makes rotors and pads for the applications those brakes are used on, while they've got nothing for the Fiero.

My wife's "car" is a Lexus RX330. I would consider that a modern vehicle with good brakes, but on dry pavement, I'd still take my Formula in a panic. The Lexus is top heavy, and it takes a few tenths of a second for the weight to shift, and for braking to begin. My Formula starts braking almost immediately upon pedal application. And given the stiffness of my brakes, they have less of a tendency to lock in a panic than other non-ABS brakes.
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Report this Post02-11-2015 02:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:
Fieros do have totally average '80s brakes. Not exceptional, but certainly not Cavalier or Escort bad. However, on roads today safe distance for old cars is pretty big, and I find that leaving such large gaps encourages other drivers to slot in. Driving becomes a constant effort of falling back or following way too close. In the Fleetwood (4-wheel drum, 5500lbs curb weight), for example, I just stay out of traffic for that reason. But I commute in the Fiero almost daily (3-4 days/week), and that type of super defensive driving is no fun. Even with a totally fresh brake system I never achieved encouraging results from even the Grand Am upgrade. Antequated caliper design and poor pad & rotor choices never left me with confidence.

Nah, not so. I've tracked almost every car I own at one point or another, and found very few of them to be lacking in a material way. Admittedly, I tend to buy a certain type of car, but even still there have been a few stinkers. My SHO was terrifying! If people can't get three laps out of their Z's stock brakes (which are VERY good), it's because they are poor drivers or made poor pad choices. No reputable magazine (Evo, GRM, etc.) reported such problems with any Z since the Z32 (which also had great brakes). You can of course outdrive *any* car's brakes, but on hipo machinery like the 370Z, that's just hooning and not actually driving fast. You can always accelerate hard and brake hard and *think* you're going fast, but that isn't the same as actually doing it. The number of people I see at track days suffering that exact dilemma is kind of amazing. You can always pick those people out, too, complaining about that nonsense in the pits while people in bone stock Miatas eat a hot dog and have a soda, noting they schooled a car with twice the power.


Regarding people trying to cut in and generally being complete self-absorbed asshats while driving, I see that happen no matter what I drive. You'd think people would like to avoid being ran over by a big truck but no. Even with my 6000lb 4x4 Avalanche with push bars on the front, people will literally make eye contact with me, and then pull out in front of me anyway, on 45 MPH roads, where majority of traffic is going 50-55 MPH. On roads with three lanes and 45 MPH speed limit, I'll be going along in the left lane at 45 MPH or so, and someone will be in the middle lane going only 35-40 MPH and suddenly decide they really need to be in the left lane for the next 5 miles, even though nobody was in front of them, and hop right on over, forcing me to divert my attention from what's ahead, to search for an opening to move over and pass them on the right. In spots where there are two left turn lanes, turning onto a road with three travelling lanes, I have people try to turn from the left most turn lane into the right most lane with a near miss, all the time. People just don't know how to drive and don't want to care about anyone other than themselves.

Regarding tracking all those cars, is that a real track, or is that autocross at an old runway or such? There's a huge difference between braking at autocross and braking on a real road course, too. Autocross is relatively low speed, and you're the only car on the course. On a real road course, you'd be going a fair bit faster, and will have to avoid other cars as well as staying on the track, so the braking demands there are much more intense.
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quote
Originally posted by dobey:Regarding tracking all those cars, is that a real track, or is that autocross at an old runway or such? There's a huge difference between braking at autocross and braking on a real road course, too. Autocross is relatively low speed, and you're the only car on the course. On a real road course, you'd be going a fair bit faster, and will have to avoid other cars as well as staying on the track, so the braking demands there are much more intense.

Generally, "track" refers to a real road course. As you mentioned, an autocross course is much different. The problems that autocrossers have is getting their tires and brakes UP to temperature on course, not keeping them cool.
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quote
Originally posted by Formula Owner:
Generally, "track" refers to a real road course. As you mentioned, an autocross course is much different. The problems that autocrossers have is getting their tires and brakes UP to temperature on course, not keeping them cool.


Generally, a lot of people will say I track my car and what they mean, is they do autocross. Also, the Miata owners comment made it seem more like autocross was tracking meant there. So I asked for clarification.
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quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Regarding tracking all those cars, is that a real track, or is that autocross at an old runway or such? There's a huge difference between braking at autocross and braking on a real road course, too. Autocross is relatively low speed, and you're the only car on the course. On a real road course, you'd be going a fair bit faster, and will have to avoid other cars as well as staying on the track, so the braking demands there are much more intense.


I have actually never autocrossed a car. A lot of friends do and they all seem to think I'd like it, but as you say it seems very low speed and thus not a lot of fun. One minute of super intense low speed driving just isn't my style.

Most of my track time is at Thunderhill, but I've also spent a good amount of time at Infineon/Sears Point/Sonoma/whatever it is now and some at Buttonwillow and Laguna Seca. My goal for this year is to get the Camarobird-powered, Corvette-braked, ridiculously over-tired Fiero out to TH and see how it does - but that was my goal last year, too, and it never happened.

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quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Regarding people trying to cut in and generally being complete self-absorbed asshats while driving, I see that happen no matter what I drive. You'd think people would like to avoid being ran over by a big truck but no. Even with my 6000lb 4x4 Avalanche with push bars on the front, people will literally make eye contact with me, and then pull out in front of me anyway,


I've experienced the same in the Suburban. Last year I bought a motorhome for fun and was shocked at the number of people who think it's a good idea to cut off a 16,000lb poorly engineered contraption or pull in front and hit the brakes. I cannot even fathom the thought process that leads people to toy with gigantic, inadequately-braked houses on wheels. It's crazy. Most people are truly awful, awful drivers. All the more reason to have excellent brakes wherever possible.

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I have tried to stay out of this thread, "as never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference" but this is getting out of hand.

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


For the record, I am not a fan of adding the S10 booster on an otherwise stock 84-87. It will stop with less pedal effort and could give you a false sense of security. If you interpret the lower pedal effort as "better braking" and drive more aggressively (especially with good tires), you could more easily induce brake fade... where braking significantly declines.


That is the stupidest thing I have seen posted on here, "Don't upgrade your car as you may drive more aggressively" OMG Really?

And saying the bigger booster does not stop shorter.?.?.?
How does greater clamping force on the rotors not equal better stopping?
Saying it stops the exact same is just asinine. Yeah useing LESS pressure on the brake pedal to achieve the same force, it will stop the same.
But when you put equal force on it, you put more force on the rotors, thus better braking. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.
As far as being better on the 88, just BS. it adds 40% more force to the master, thus year is tottaly regardless.
And Orge get off your kick of everytime someone talks about a brake upgrade they done, you say they had bad components to start with so what they say doesn't count.
I had everything working perfectly in my brake system, and still felt like they needed more, I wasn't happy untill I did the booster upgrade, I felt it was so awesome I decided to offer it to the Fiero community, I don't offer crap. I stad behind my work, if I felt the booster upgrade was crap I would not have offered it.
It has gotten to the point where I drive a stock Fiero, with good brakes, and I fear if it will stop.
Get over "its for the feel" same input pressure to the brake pedal = greater clamping force, simple but some just will never get it.
Every naysayer I have seen on here does NOT have a bigger booster. Don't ***** untill you have tried it, if you havent tried it you have NOTHING to say but speculation.
I won't be responding to any of this after this post, as I want to stay away from drama this time, this forum has gotten so bad that if I said the sky was blue, I would get attacked and said how wrong I am.

People just use common sense!
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I agree that there are a lot of awful drivers and there are also a lot of belligerent drivers. There is a section of Hwy 40 here going East out of Silver Springs where the road changes from 4 lanes to two lanes. The speed limit is 45 mph and increases to 55 mph after the merging lanes. If I am driving the speed limit or even up to 10 mph over the speed limit there is almost always a jerk who is determined to pass me on the right and go as fast as it takes to change in front of me into my lane right before they run out of road. This happens when there are no cars behind me to so they could easily pull behind me.
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quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
this forum has gotten so bad that if I said the sky was blue, I would get attacked and said how wrong I am.


.... and a link to the cave showing you why


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quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
I won't be responding to any of this after this post, as I want to stay away from drama this time, this forum has gotten so bad that if I said the sky was blue, I would get attacked and said how wrong I am.


Guru said alot of things that make sense. you seemed to skip over and reinterpret what he said alot differently than what I read in my opinion. Anyway, he said it was his opinion.
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quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I have tried to stay out of this thread, "as never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference" but this is getting out of hand.


Really, the first sentence taking issue with something I posted starts with implying I am a fool... as if that will strike an emotional response and make me type something with an emotional slant... sorry, that just isn't going to happen.

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The 88 Fiero has a 23.8/36mm master, but the 84-87 uses a 25.4/36mm one according to Centric. All Fieros have caliper diameters of 48mm (or within 1mm depending on reference). So the 88 master is about 12% smaller and should have a softer pedal and more clamp load at the calipers for a given pedal force.

Since the S10 booster installs before the master, it will be more effective (higher caliper clamp load for fixed pedal force) on the 88's. The 88's also benefit from more mechanical leverage at the caliper (slightly larger rotor diameter) as well as the vented rotors to better resist brake fade.

For the record, I am not a fan of adding the S10 booster on an otherwise stock 84-87. It will stop with less pedal effort and could give you a false sense of security. If you interpret the lower pedal effort as "better braking" and drive more aggressively (especially with good tires), you could more easily induce brake fade... where braking significantly declines.


 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
That is the stupidest thing I have seen posted on here, "Don't upgrade your car as you may drive more aggressively" OMG Really?


I didn't type anything close to that.
"Don't drive more aggressively unless you have done something that improves fade resistance" is more in-line with the intent of what I posted.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
And saying the bigger booster does not stop shorter.?.?.?


I never typed that.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
How does greater clamping force on the rotors not equal better stopping?


It does... up to the point of brake fade. Once fade sets in, additional clamp force does not contribute to more brake force.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
Saying it stops the exact same is just asinine.


I didn't type that.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
Yeah useing LESS pressure on the brake pedal to achieve the same force, it will stop the same.


This is what I typed...
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
It will stop with less pedal effort


and you agree with me.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
But when you put equal force on it, you put more force on the rotors, thus better braking. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.


The statement that more clamp force on the rotors will equal better braking potential is correct, but only to a point... and that point is brake fade. Once you reach brake fade higher clamp force does nothing to improve braking.

Yes you can stop better (up to a point), yes the pedal feels better (less effort to push), but my concern is all about the brake fade... and you seem to want to ignore that phenomenon.

Conservation of Energy requires that all energy to stop a car must be converted to some other type of energy: (sound, vibration, heat, etc). Stopping a car from 80 mph will generate virtually the same total amount of heat if you stop in 300 ft or 100 ft (I say virtually, because stopping in 300 ft keeps aerodynamic drag, rolling resistance, and a few other in play longer). The heat largely goes into the rotors and must be dissipated to keep below the threshold for brake fade. When you stop at a faster rate, you put the same amount of heat energy into the rotors, but you put it into them at a much faster rate (which makes them hotter). The dissipation rate (the speed at which the rotors transfer the heat to the air or other parts) remains about the same, so the rotors reach a higher temp and get closer to the threshold for brake fade.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
As far as being better on the 88, just BS. it adds 40% more force to the master, thus year is tottaly regardless.


The phrase to focus on here is "it adds force to the Master"... The master cylinders are different with the 88's being smaller, so they will have a higher caliper clamp load for any given pressure. Bump it up 20% on both the 84-87 and the 88 and the 88's will still have higher caliper clamp pressure... which is exactly what I typed (see below).
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Since the S10 booster installs before the master, it will be more effective (higher caliper clamp load for fixed pedal force) on the 88's.


 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
It adds 40% more force to the master,


Now about that 40%... all you every share when trying to sell this "upgrade" is the 40% increase to the brake booster. You take a very strong stance that increased clamp load = increased braking, so what is the actual clamp load increase with the S10 booster? Have you ever done a test with the S10 vs. Stock booster to get the as measured line pressure gain both front and rear?

A while back I did take the time to do that exact thing with a stock 88 Fiero and an 88 with a 3.4TDC... Sure there could be some error between using two different cars of the same year and the idle vacuum between the two, but so far this is the only actual testing of the brake booster benefit that happened. I certainly welcome others to perform the same test and share their data.

code:

Caliper Pressure Comparison Stock 88 Booster vs. Rodney S10 Prototype:
All Tests with Engine On, but there is data from two 88 Fieros - 3.4TDC and 2.5L

3.4TDC 2.5L Stock 3.4TDC 3.4TDC 2.5L 3.4TDC
Front Front 3.4TDC Front Rear Rear
Stock Stock vs. S10 Front Stock S10 Rear
Input Air Booster Booster 2.5L Booster Gain Booster Booster Gain
(psi) (psi) (psi) (psi) (%) (psi) (psi) (%)
5 135 n/a n/a <200 n/a n/a n/a n/a
10 320 400 -80 450 41% 300 300 0%
15 550 600 -50 700 27% 400 400 0%
20 675 800 -125 950 41% 500 550 10%
25 975 925 +50 1275 31% 600 675 13%
30 1150 1200 -50 1475 28% 675 775 15%
35 1200 1225 -25 1500 25% 700 775 11%
40 1200 1250 -50 1550 29% 700 775 11%
45 1275 1300 -25 1575 24% 725 850 17%
50 1325 1325 0 1600 21% 725 850 17%
55 1475 1375 +100 1675 14% 775 900 16%
60 1475 1400 +75 1700 15% 775 900 16%




From my measurements, the 40% (actual clamp pressure gain) only happens at low pedal input pressures and only on the front. At low pedal input pressure, the rears see no (or very little) gain from the booster upgrade. At pedal pressure in the middle of the chart, the gain is 25-30% for the fronts and 11-17% in the rear. At high pedal pressure the gain drops to about 15% both front/rear.

While there certainly is some error with this measurement process (not same car, same engine, etc), the results tend to show that the gains from the booster are not constant (it becomes less the harder you push on the pedal) and the gains are not the same between the front and rear.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
Every naysayer I have seen on here does NOT have a bigger booster. Don't ***** untill you have tried it, if you havent tried it you have NOTHING to say but speculation.


The problem with stating absolutes (like "every"), is it only takes 1 to prove you wrong. If you consider my comments about the booster to be along those with the naysayers, I certainly have done the S10 booster upgrade, tested while driving, measured it, and shared my comments and experiences for all to see in this thread:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/121747.html

I even installed one of your S10 brake boosters on an 84-87 Fiero for a customer of mine and put quite a few miles on it.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
I won't be responding to any of this after this post


So I have wasted a bunch of key strokes, but that's OK. I will write it off as typing practice.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
I want to stay away from drama this time, this forum has gotten so bad that if I said the sky was blue, I would get attacked and said how wrong I am.


If drama is always following you and coming from multiple sources, you might want to start looking at what is common to all this drama and start there.

Drama certainly doesn't follow me and my posts on a regular basis where I am worried about it.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-12-2015).]

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quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I have tried to stay out of this thread, "as never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference" but this is getting out of hand.


That is the stupidest thing I have seen posted on here, "Don't upgrade your car as you may drive more aggressively" OMG Really?

And saying the bigger booster does not stop shorter.?.?.?
How does greater clamping force on the rotors not equal better stopping?

If you can already lock the brakes, locking the brakes with greater clamping force isn't going to equal better stopping. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
Saying it stops the exact same is just asinine. Yeah useing LESS pressure on the brake pedal to achieve the same force, it will stop the same.
But when you put equal force on it, you put more force on the rotors, thus better braking. I don't understand why this is so hard to understand.

More force on the rotors doesn't always equal better braking. If the "more force" results in overly sensitive brakes, or a worse F/R bias, braking will NOT be improved.

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
As far as being better on the 88, just BS. it adds 40% more force to the master, thus year is tottaly regardless.
And Orge get off your kick of everytime someone talks about a brake upgrade they done, you say they had bad components to start with so what they say doesn't count.
I had everything working perfectly in my brake system, and still felt like they needed more, I wasn't happy untill I did the booster upgrade, I felt it was so awesome I decided to offer it to the Fiero community, I don't offer crap. I stad behind my work, if I felt the booster upgrade was crap I would not have offered it.
It has gotten to the point where I drive a stock Fiero, with good brakes, and I fear if it will stop.
Get over "its for the feel" same input pressure to the brake pedal = greater clamping force, simple but some just will never get it.
Every naysayer I have seen on here does NOT have a bigger booster. Don't ***** untill you have tried it, if you havent tried it you have NOTHING to say but speculation.
I won't be responding to any of this after this post, as I want to stay away from drama this time, this forum has gotten so bad that if I said the sky was blue, I would get attacked and said how wrong I am.

People just use common sense!

The problem is, with brakes, common sense doesn't always work. For example, the "Big Bore Master Cylinder". It's just common sense that this will improve braking. Except it doesn't. It does the opposite. It's just common sense that more clamping force with the same pedal force equals better braking. Except that it doesn't always. Brake systems are engineered, and mucking with the design, instead of fixing the underlying problems... is NOT using common sense. Changing the caliper bore sizes will change the operating pressures at which a given amount of braking will occur. Which means that the proportioning valve "knee" (that controls rear bias) occurs at a different level of braking.

I'll agree that Fiero brakes aren't great, but their biggest overall problem is reliability. They require more maintenance than typical. Or... ignoring maintenance has more negative effects. Rust in the system caused by not doing periodic flushes is likely no problem on a Civic, Corolla, etc. But in a Fiero, this will result in excessive friction on the p-brake system. Then your p-brake stops adjusting. Then it stops working at all. Then your rear brakes stop working.

I think the next biggest problem plaguing Fiero brakes is hard pads. Many pads, including "premium" pads (or maybe, ESPECIALLY "premium" pads) are WAY too hard for the application. My brakes were crappy, too until I got a set of Thermoquiet pads, and I tried numerous "premium" pads from discount stores . The design of Fiero brakes provides just a little more clamping force than needed to lock the brakes... with stock pads. If replacement pads don't have equal grip, then your braking WILL be compromised, and in this case, increasing line pressure with a bigger booster WILL improve your braking. My preference would be to get the system working perfectly, and use soft pads as opposed to changing the design of the system with different boosters and/or calipers.

Has anyone tried to do a 60-0 test in a Fiero with a perfectly working brake system, and modern tires? The results will most likely still not be as good as a modern sports car with ABS, but I bet it would be considerably better than the magazine tests from the 80's.
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To Guru:
Sorry Guru, all that wasnt ment for you just the part I quoted. More for the tread overall.
You have done an extreme amout of brake testing and I give you all props.

By math the surface area of the booster is about 50% increase, but everyone goes by your data, as you did the best testing on them.

To the rest of the thread:
I do agree though, the only way to get the bigger booster to work the best/right is to have your entire braking system in good order, IE a good high stiff pedal. That takes everything adjusted right, mainly the e-brake, no leaks, good hoses (not necessarily aftermarket, but good shape) no black or burnt fluid, no sticking sliders, etc.
And I also don't say the booster is the only thing to upgrade, I do agree that swaping to a vented,drilled rotor should be done to deal with fade. I went to the drilled and slotted and my fade went away (this was long before I did the booster) now I run the GA rotors/drilled.

This is also why I went through so much effort to find a better way to adjust the ebrake.
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quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
Saying it stops the exact same is just asinine. Yeah useing LESS pressure on the brake pedal to achieve the same force, it will stop the same.


In the above sentence, you say that it is "asinine" to say that it stops the same, and immediately after that you then say it will stop the same.

For reference, this is what I said: (Quoting myself here) "I can go as far to say, that if I has measured my stopping distance before I installed the S-10 booster and again after it was installed, it would be the same, or at least VERY close. I just simply do not have to push as hard on the brake pedal to stop now."

I will stand 100% by what I said. You have said many, many times, in a couple threads that the booster provides the same clamping pressure with 40% less pedal force. That is true, and I totally agree with that statement. Therefore, with stock brakes, if I press 40% harder on the pedal, it will provide the SAME clamping force on the calipers, thus stopping in the same distance. This is not rocket science, just simple reasoning.

I feel what I said on page one of this thread is worth repeating:

 
quote
Originally posted by JohnWPB:
Is it really that hard for people to understand that the larger booster can create the same pressure on the calipers with less force on the pedal? It's really that simple! Nothing more, nothing less. Installing the new booster will not make your car stop using fairy dust and magic. It will not overcome bad calipers, pads, or vacuum leaks. It just applies the SAME force to the calipers, while using LESS force on the brake pedal.


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I agree with what you say, but I am ALSO saying that if you put the same pressure on the brake pedal you will put more force on the clamping force thus stop better.
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quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

I agree with what you say, but I am ALSO saying that if you put the same pressure on the brake pedal you will put more force on the clamping force thus stop better.


I mostly agree with what you are saying.... I would however say stop easier, not "better".

I purchased the booster from you, and am 100% satisfied with it! To me, the stock brakes were just a bit too stiff, and required a bit too much force to make a quick stop. They very much reminded me of a truck I had a few years back with manual brakes.

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Report this Post02-13-2015 07:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagClick Here to Email CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yesterday I drove my 04 Chevy Venture van and my 85 Fiero 2M4 back to back. The Van required less pedal effort than the Fiero but didn't seem to stop any shorter but that is my seat of the pants observation. Too bad someone can't actually measure the stopping distance of a stock Fiero with stock brakes in good order and then measure the stopping distance of an S-10 booster equipped car. I do agree that most of us are used to newer cars that require less pedal effort, that is why a lot of people say the Fiero brakes are bad when they first drive one.
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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post02-13-2015 01:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by olejoedad:


More power = need for better brakes?
Only if you drive at higher speeds or have added more weight.

Its always better to have better brakes. Better is always better.
But more HP doesn't mean the brakes need upgraded, unless your driving style will be changing.


Well yes. It would be silly to add more power and not upgrade the brakes.
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dobey
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Report this Post02-13-2015 04:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by BV MotorSports:
Well yes. It would be silly to add more power and not upgrade the brakes.


Why exactly? An engine that makes more power, doesn't increase the inertia of the vehicle when travelling at the same speed. Unless your engine is significantly heavier than stock, or you plan to be driving it on a road course at higher speeds, then larger brakes are not a necessity.

They're nice for filling out the empty space between the brakes and the wheels, but a 2800 lb car going 30 MPH has the same inertia whether it's making 100 HP or 600 HP.
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JohnWPB
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Report this Post02-13-2015 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, the same inertia. I think you possibly may be reading into it a bit too much.

I think what he means is when you put a V8 in a car -vs- a 2.5l engine, you have much more of a tendency to "drive". Not necessarily more aggressive, but probably much faster accelerations and quicker stops, more frequently.

In a small engine car, I let others leave me at a light, coast up to red lights with light braking stops. Generally just driving much more leisurely. Put me behind the wheel of a larger engine / sportier car, and I am a different driver all together Much more aggressive in acceleration, cornering, lane changing and in braking... What Pontiac calls "Excitement!"



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