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True mid-engine by Bridgetown
Started on: 01-06-2012 02:11 PM
Replies: 68 (9181 views)
Last post by: motoracer838 on 10-14-2014 07:51 PM
Bridgetown
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Report this Post01-10-2012 12:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looking into the wrx drivetrian a little more. Here is the company that sells a 2wd conversion for the 5 speed.
http://www.bremarauto.com/p...-2wd-conversion-kit/

There is actually a descent amount of aftermarket out there for putting wrx drivetrains into mid engine applications. It is a popular swap for 914's.
Weight is looking like it would be about 30# more then the 3400/getrag drivetrain I have now. Now, that is a fully dressed ej205/5speed. You could probabley shave a bit of weight off the subaru when the tail output is removed, as well as the a/c, etc. So there isn't much weight to be saved, although, the weight of the engine will be lower and closer to the middle of the car. Not to mention that it is 227 hp stock, and 300 is pretty easily acheivable. Yes, a turbo 3800 is going to stomp it in the quarter mile, but you need the auto to handle a turbod 3800 and that drivetrain combo is going to be around 150#'s heavier, from my research using info on here.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...030531-2-031065.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-077055.html
My '86 GT 3400/5speed no A/C, '88 Cradle, sparco buckets 1/2 tank of gas, came in at 2650#'s, Darth's 3800sc with auto weighed 2920#'s. That's over 250#'s difference! Doing the WRX drivetrain swap is not going to make the fastest Fiero, but it may just make the best handling drivetrain setup.
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Report this Post01-11-2012 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post


Here is the Subaru wrx EJ20 engine and 5 speed trans. I have confirmed (on an outback) that the entire Subaru 4 cyl from mounting face to front accessories is only 16" long, and about 20" tall. That is such a nice compact looking drivetrain. Hmmm...
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Report this Post01-11-2012 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Using the above photo and a random Fiero. I came up with this quick photoshop. It isn't exact but it should be pretty close. Using the known dimension of the engine (16"), and the known dimension of the Fiero 15" wheel. This is roughly where the drivetrain would sit. You can see how low and forward it is. I put the orange line in to show roughly where the firewall sits. The firewall would need to be clearenced roughly 2" or so. Potential issues I can see are the fuel tank possibley needing to be shortened or moved forward, the cradle to frame mounts may be a problem due to the width of the boxer engine. Othere then those you would still need the usual custom stuff, wiring, engine/trans mounts, axles, shifter/throttle cables, etc.
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Report this Post01-11-2012 11:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Now you're talking. If you use a Subie trans, you'd quickly run out of room to the front because of how the axles would need to be set up etc. But if you use a wee boxer... yeah, that's gonna fit good. A little creative engineering of manifolds and you could make it even lower still.
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Report this Post01-11-2012 11:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Racing_MasterSend a Private Message to Racing_MasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Why start with a AWD transmission? its longer and heavier... I was planning on using this:

http://www.advancedautomoti...2_143&products_id=29

01E Transmission, 6 speed and rather short. Able to hold high HP as well. I am unsure its ratings, but they use it from VW with 300+ flywheel HP mated to it.

I have a plan for a true mid engine, however on a stock wheelbase its nearly impossible. You can "Shift" the passenger compartment forward by shortening the front and extending the rear to give you some more room back there, but otherwise it needs a lengthen. Short engines would also be required for proper use. Don't forget you have to keep everything aligned perfectly when redesigning the mounting style!
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Report this Post01-12-2012 02:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Racing_Master:

Why start with a AWD transmission? its longer and heavier... I was planning on using this:

http://www.advancedautomoti...2_143&products_id=29

01E Transmission, 6 speed and rather short. Able to hold high HP as well. I am unsure its ratings, but they use it from VW with 300+ flywheel HP mated to it.

I have a plan for a true mid engine, however on a stock wheelbase its nearly impossible. You can "Shift" the passenger compartment forward by shortening the front and extending the rear to give you some more room back there, but otherwise it needs a lengthen. Short engines would also be required for proper use. Don't forget you have to keep everything aligned perfectly when redesigning the mounting style!


From what I have read the audi O1E is still around 125 LBS. which is light for a six speed, but only 10 LBS. lighter then the Subaru 5 speed. Also the bellhousing face to axle measurement is about the same as the porsche G-50, which would push the engine forward another 2 inches over the subaru 5 speed. Plus at lease another 3/4" or so for the needed adapter plate.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post01-12-2012 12:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:


There must be some advantage. Most of the big boys use that layout. Besides there are more gains in other ways. Stronger transmissions, better aftermarket support, etc. Also there is the originality, and imo longitudinal looks better.


The 4T65eHD has been built to support over 1000 HP. I guess engine mounting comes down to taste.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
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Report this Post01-12-2012 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeClick Here to Email FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The question to ask is was the subaru transmission designed to use 100% of drive torque the the front ouput shafts/gears?
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Report this Post01-12-2012 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


The 4T65eHD has been built to support over 1000 HP. I guess engine mounting comes down to taste.



I was refering to manual transmissions, not autos. Most transverse manuals are not that strong because they usually aren't designed for powerful cars. Myself, I wouldn't ever put an auto in a Fiero, but that's just my preference.
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Report this Post01-12-2012 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Racing_MasterSend a Private Message to Racing_MasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:


From what I have read the audi O1E is still around 125 LBS. which is light for a six speed, but only 10 LBS. lighter then the Subaru 5 speed. Also the bellhousing face to axle measurement is about the same as the porsche G-50, which would push the engine forward another 2 inches over the subaru 5 speed. Plus at lease another 3/4" or so for the needed adapter plate.


Don't need an adapter if you use a VW or Audi engine though!

Also, for the Subaru 5 speed, you would need to remanufacture it slightly to remove the viscous coupling center differential, to place 100% of the drive torque to the front diff, and eliminate the driveshaft. Sounds like too much of a nightmare, when you have to stretch the car anyway. It would be easier to just backhalf the Fiero to do it properly.
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BV MotorSports
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Report this Post01-12-2012 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Racing_Master:


Don't need an adapter if you use a VW or Audi engine though!

Also, for the Subaru 5 speed, you would need to remanufacture it slightly to remove the viscous coupling center differential, to place 100% of the drive torque to the front diff, and eliminate the driveshaft. Sounds like too much of a nightmare, when you have to stretch the car anyway. It would be easier to just backhalf the Fiero to do it properly.


You wont have to worry, if you start with a FWD Subaru trans in the first place. Many are doing this due to the popularity of the "porscharu".

Someone mentioned about that the 5MT is good up to 300whp.. bull-hockey! Define good. Define who and how they are driving it. You can get some idiot kid that thinks AWD is invincible and destroy the trans in minutes at stock HP levels. You can have an experienced driver run a '02 WRX (oh no, infamous glass trans!) at 320whp and constantly launch & drag race for 4 yrs straight (seriously I bet I launched that car 1000 times!) with no problems until 5th started grinding. I'd be less worried about 1-4th and more about 5th than anything else. Even my STi's 6MT developed the 5th gear grind.

As for power, you can fart in the '10 WRX and push 300whp. The early guys would need extensive mods to equal the power of the later WRX's. My '10 WRX with just a CAI, Tune, DP (on stock catback) was running 314whp/352lbft.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 01-12-2012).]

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Report this Post01-12-2012 11:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Racing_Master:


Don't need an adapter if you use a VW or Audi engine though!

Also, for the Subaru 5 speed, you would need to remanufacture it slightly to remove the viscous coupling center differential, to place 100% of the drive torque to the front diff, and eliminate the driveshaft. Sounds like too much of a nightmare, when you have to stretch the car anyway. It would be easier to just backhalf the Fiero to do it properly.


You obviously havent read the whole thread? There is a link above showing the "kit" to adapt the Subaru AWD trans to 2WD. The entire purpose of this discussion is to put longitudinal drivetrain into a NON-STRECHED Fiero chassis.
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Report this Post01-12-2012 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BridgetownSend a Private Message to BridgetownEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bridgetown

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quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:


You wont have to worry, if you start with a FWD Subaru trans in the first place. Many are doing this due to the popularity of the "porscharu".

Someone mentioned about that the 5MT is good up to 300whp.. bull-hockey! Define good. Define who and how they are driving it. You can get some idiot kid that thinks AWD is invincible and destroy the trans in minutes at stock HP levels. You can have an experienced driver run a '02 WRX (oh no, infamous glass trans!) at 320whp and constantly launch & drag race for 4 yrs straight (seriously I bet I launched that car 1000 times!) with no problems until 5th started grinding. I'd be less worried about 1-4th and more about 5th than anything else. Even my STi's 6MT developed the 5th gear grind.

As for power, you can fart in the '10 WRX and push 300whp. The early guys would need extensive mods to equal the power of the later WRX's. My '10 WRX with just a CAI, Tune, DP (on stock catback) was running 314whp/352lbft.



Are the Subaru FWD trans. built to the same streangth as the AWD version? I was thinking the Later WRX engines would be a pretty difficult swap as far as engine management, no? The have drive-by-wire, vvt, and other high-tech gobblety-gook. Most of that stuff is whats holding back more modern engines from showing up in Fieros (asside from cost), like the new Camaro v6. Is there an easy route around these features?
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Report this Post01-12-2012 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
there are subaru front drive trannys available ? subaru only sells AWD models in canada and that has been true for at least 8 years now .is this a JDM product ? also someone mentioned about putting a VW motor in .not going to get a VW v6 , straight 4 or straight 5 cylinder in without a stretch no matter what tranny you use .the subie flat 4 is as short as you get unless you want to run an old air cooled bug motor . i really like the idea of a subaru in a fiero , some one please try it .not me though , i am happy with my ecotec .
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Report this Post01-12-2012 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Racing_MasterSend a Private Message to Racing_MasterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:


You obviously havent read the whole thread? There is a link above showing the "kit" to adapt the Subaru AWD trans to 2WD. The entire purpose of this discussion is to put longitudinal drivetrain into a NON-STRECHED Fiero chassis.


I admit I only skimmed! Not hiding that.

However, from my research so far, a non stretched true mid engined Fiero is near impossible without severe interior modification. I personally have been doing research with a Volkswagen W8, Audi 01E, and a backhalf reframe to fit them properly.

I have played with the idea to recess the firewall, however the problem here lies in the lack of interior room after you do so, also you would have to build a "doghouse" to service the vehicle's accessory drive belt system.

More power to you, to make a Subaru powered Fiero! I have worked on many subarus myself, and they are short for sure. However I have felt many subaru transmissions and I dislike their feel. Personal preference on that.

I believe, if I am doing top of my head math right, the VW W8 with a 01E transmission is about as long as the subaru combination, maybe a hair longer. However that swap is infinately more complicated than a H4 subaru. If you can recess the firewall a few inches and lowmount all accessories to make the engine even flatter, then custom make the intake to slip the engine under the passenger compartment, it would work quite well.
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Report this Post01-13-2012 12:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


The 4T65eHD has been built to support over 1000 HP. I guess engine mounting comes down to taste.



Even Ferrari used transverse mounting on the 308.

Lamborghini used a transverse mounted V12 on the Miura.

That said, all of them currently use a longitudinal mounting, so I would imagine there's some advantage. If you have the length, packaging is probably easier, and it allows the drivetrain to be mounted along the centerline of the chassis instead of being offset to one side for transmission clearance.
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Report this Post01-13-2012 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BV MotorSportsClick Here to Email BV MotorSportsSend a Private Message to BV MotorSportsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:


Are the Subaru FWD trans. built to the same streangth as the AWD version? I was thinking the Later WRX engines would be a pretty difficult swap as far as engine management, no? The have drive-by-wire, vvt, and other high-tech gobblety-gook. Most of that stuff is whats holding back more modern engines from showing up in Fieros (asside from cost), like the new Camaro v6. Is there an easy route around these features?


Yes there is, its called Hydra EMS. It can run Subarus DBW and AVCS. Its not all that difficult to just swap the older STi intake onto the new WRX. Basicly in '08 Subaru Legacy-ized the WRX, well, errr...the USDM '08 WRX isnt even a WRX and should be avoided at all cost, but thats a whole different story.
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Report this Post01-13-2012 12:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tesmith66Send a Private Message to tesmith66Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Formula88:


Even Ferrari used transverse mounting on the 308.

Lamborghini used a transverse mounted V12 on the Miura.

That said, all of them currently use a longitudinal mounting, so I would imagine there's some advantage. If you have the length, packaging is probably easier, and it allows the drivetrain to be mounted along the centerline of the chassis instead of being offset to one side for transmission clearance.


How on earth do you get that filter off without making an unholy mess?
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Report this Post01-13-2012 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CarcenomyClick Here to visit Carcenomy's HomePageSend a Private Message to CarcenomyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tesmith66:
How on earth do you get that filter off without making an unholy mess?

With great difficulty. Setting the timing was equally bad, dual distributors

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Report this Post01-13-2012 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for weaselbeakClick Here to Email weaselbeakSend a Private Message to weaselbeakEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
"How on earth do you get that filter off without making an unholy mess?"


I would think that filter would drain down pretty good sitting that vertical.
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engine man
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Report this Post06-02-2012 07:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wish i would have seen this thread before i started one but any ways best Audi / VW fwd trans is the 01X these guys build them and have all sorts of parts for them http://www.advancedautomotion.com/ oh ya the Audi 016 trans is a good trans and has proven it self but needs a pinoin plate to beef it up then it is pretty tough it came in Audi 5000 and 100
for a short engine and light engine Audi 4.2 V8 http://www.gt40s.com/forum/...udi-engine-info.html

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 06-02-2012).]

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Report this Post06-02-2012 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A few spec for doing an Audi 4.2 V8
Total length (Audi ABZ engine + 01X gearbox) = 1200mm
Length of engine (front pulley to bellhousing face) = 490mm
Length of 01X gearbox (bellhousing to rear casing) =710mm
Max width of engine (across exhaust manifolds) = 760mm
Max height of engine (sump to idle air valve) = 660mm
Drive shaft position (front pulley to drive flange) =690mm (or from gearbox rear casing = 510mm)

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Report this Post09-21-2014 12:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for XysterSend a Private Message to XysterEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Did a project ever come out of this discussion?
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Report this Post09-21-2014 07:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for LunaticClick Here to Email LunaticSend a Private Message to LunaticEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Since I have a 4.3 Vortec in the garage, as well as a Porsche 914 transaxle, here are a few measurements.

4.3 bellhousing edge (back of block) to outward edge of serpentine pulley is 23 1/4"
4.3 bellhousing edge (back of block) to outward edge of harmonic balancer is 20 3/4"


Porsche 914 (901 transaxle).
Bellhousing edge to output shaft centerline is 7 13/16"
Bellhousing edge to rear-most casing is 23 1/2"






I'm also in the midst of making an adapter plate to join a Northstar to the Porsche transaxle. I could modify my Solidworks drawing to suit the 90° pattern quite easily.




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fieroguru
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Report this Post09-21-2014 08:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You can shorten the 4.3 engine balancer/accessory setup to be about 2 1/4" from the face of the block by using a serpentine balancer from a GM 89 FWD 2.5L engine:


Also, going from the N* where the crankshaft flange is nearly flush with the bellhousing face to the 4.3 (or SBC) where the crankshaft flange protrudes about 11/16", will also require your adapter plate to be around 11/16" thicker.
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Report this Post09-21-2014 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for seajaiSend a Private Message to seajaiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just for a frame of reference of this subject:

The 3.5 HO Chrysler engine I have installed in my 88 measures 19" from bellhousing flange to timing cover + 2" for the front pulley for a total of 21". The transaxle output shaft centerline is 5.5" back from the bellhousing giving me a total of 26 1/2" front pulley to axle centerline measurement. When I mounted the engine in the car, I cut and boxed the lower cross beam in the car to move the engine as far forward as possible. The 3.5 engine runs a timing belt driven waterpump so I was able to run the front of the engine tight to the firewall as well. All this resulted in the transaxle output shaft centerline being 2-1/2" behind the wheel bearing centerline. Depending on the length of the axles, this offset results in around a 7 to 8 deg C/V joint running angle. Also, the 42LE transmission is only 18" long which gives an overall length for the engine/trans of 44.5" which leaves around 6" clearance to the rear bumper impact beam.

Pic of the clearanced lower beam:



Pic showing the clearance between transaxle and impact beam:

[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 09-21-2014).]

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Jims88
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Report this Post09-21-2014 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Jims88Click Here to Email Jims88Send a Private Message to Jims88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting side note, the 2017 Zora Corvette may be mid engine also.

http://thenewswheel.com/mid...ette-zora-happening/
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Report this Post10-14-2014 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by steve308:
Also way to many years ago a Kit Car manufacture in TX had a Mid engine unit that appeared to be very compact. It used a belt driven trans that allowed a longitude mount v8 to fit in a very limited space. The trans extended to the rear or the vehicle where the drive pulleys were and then belts transfer the power forward back to the axles. I think the car was called the ZARA and we have a forum member who worked at the factory. I'll keep digging and if I find it -- it may be an interesting read.


That forum member would be me, and the location was Rancho Cordova Ca.The car was called the Zara, we never finished the prototype, it went to a buyer in Seattle late '91, never heard about it after that, but the chassis was a blast to drive, did many laps with it on Recycle rd.

Cheers Beers n Gearz. Joe
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Report this Post10-14-2014 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for motoracer838Click Here to Email motoracer838Send a Private Message to motoracer838Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

motoracer838

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quote
Originally posted by Bridgetown:


was this the setup you were thinking of? supposed to be good to 1000hp apparently, and can place the axle line wherever you like it.


That one was done by someone else many years after the one we did. edit, LOL I thought this thread seemed familiar.

Joe

[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 10-14-2014).]

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