quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: One more thing...try putting yourself in the buyer's shoes. I still don't think he's trying to scam you or planned this. The guy buys a car from you that basically suffers an engine failure on the way home. Not to say I'm laying the blame on anyone, but if you look at the situation from his perspective it looks a lot different. From his point of view, you screwed him over. When you're young (Or a member of Pennock's) it's hard to see things from other points of view. I don't see why you don't try and work something out that is fair to both of you. Just because the law might be on your side is no reason to be an ass. I'm pretty disappointed in most of the replies here.

I do an don't agree with this, yes there is no reason to be an ass on either side. However, having bought and sold many, many, many vehicles, and having been on both sides, I've never blamed the other person when it broke down on me, and I've never had anyone blame me when it broke down on them. I feel terrible when it happens to break on someone else, but this guy was out hot rodding this thing and broke it and now expects to get it half price? If that's truly the case he is the ass hat here.

OP, don't try to start a fight with the guy, just be reasonable and I would still make him pay full price for it. Now, if you knew there was something wrong with it, then you should do the right thing and re-negotiate with him. Also if you knew there was something wrong with it then you should be more honest with people because this crap really does came back if you lie to people, likewise if you are honest with people.

-Brandon

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: I do an don't agree with this, yes there is no reason to be an ass on either side. However, having bought and sold many, many, many vehicles, and having been on both sides, I've never blamed the other person when it broke down on me, and I've never had anyone blame me when it broke down on them. I feel terrible when it happens to break on someone else, but this guy was out hot rodding this thing and broke it and now expects to get it half price? If that's truly the case he is the ass hat here. OP, don't try to start a fight with the guy, just be reasonable and I would still make him pay full price for it. Now, if you knew there was something wrong with it, then you should do the right thing and re-negotiate with him. Also if you knew there was something wrong with it then you should be more honest with people because this crap really does came back if you lie to people, likewise if you are honest with people. -Brandon

I am just takeing almost $900 for it because my mom does not want to help me fight it at all

quote Originally posted by ANTEC900: I am just takeing almost $900 for it because my mom does not want to help me fight it at all

I'll be honest, my dad raised me that anything short of "getting it done" is an excuse, doesn't matter if my car broke down, my house caught on fire, I died, these are excuses.

So, that said, you're a big boy, you don't need your mom to fight for you. I promise you can call him yourself and tell him what's what, just keep your head on because screaming and yelling and calling each other names (while stress relieving) will not get you anywhere.

-Brandon

quote Originally posted by ALJR: WRONG! In most states, a private party sale is covered by NO WARRANTY unless it is written in the sales agreement. Most states, a private party sale is Caveat Emptor (Let the buyer beware); it is the buyer’s responsibility to have the car inspected BEFORE he purchases the vehicle... Once the sales receipt is signed, the car is his... Purchasing a used car from a dealer (of any kind), in most states, will come with some sort of a warranty... How the PO resolves the problem is another story. If wants to be decent person, he can work out some sort of a deal...

Detrimental reliance, look it up. When you rely on someone's words to make a financial decision, and it causes you financial hardship, they can be made accountable if fraud is involved. I've filed a lawsuit for this before. It's a civil matter not a criminal, and yes most states have consumer laws that protect against fraud. Most people just never get off their asses to learn about them. This is an area I've done quite a bit of research in, so argue if you want.

quote Originally posted by ANTEC900: I am just takeing almost $900 for it because my mom does not want to help me fight it at all

Wait for proof the head is cracked like a picture or someone seeing it firsthand. Otherwise that sounds pretty fair. He could part it and get his money back fairly easily, I'd think.

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: This is partially correct. You have a snowball's chance in hell of winning in Indiana unless you have a voice recording, sales ad, or something in writing stating they told you something different than was true. It has to be specific, too. "Runs good" would not cut it. You have to have something that shows a specific lie. Indiana has no form of lemon law for used cars, period. No point in even filing unless you have hard proof. The courts do not have nearly as much power in Indiana as they do in most states.

Now that's a better debate. Is there an ad somewhere that gives reference to the condition of the car? If so, that's evidence.

Did he get a bill of sale? On the bill of sale, if he got one, does it show the true purchase price? If he got a bill of sale, and it shows that the amount was already paid, then the OP won't be able to call the cops and get his car back that way.

I would definitely try to work something out here.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Now that's a better debate. Is there an ad somewhere that gives reference to the condition of the car? If so, that's evidence. Did he get a bill of sale? On the bill of sale, if he got one, does it show the true purchase price? If he got a bill of sale, and it shows that the amount was already paid, then the OP won't be able to call the cops and get his car back that way. I would definitely try to work something out here.

on the bill of sale we put 432 cash now and the rest by check but he called the bank and told them not to cash the check
Also we said we would hold the title till the check cleared on it

[This message has been edited by ANTEC900 (edited 06-19-2011).]

i hope someone mentioned this Website? for i am sure that the buyer did not know of its existance.
all kinds of clues and deception


better than TV.

quote Originally posted by batousai666: i hope someone mentioned this Website? for i am sure that the buyer did not know of its existance. all kinds of clues and deception better than TV.

I told him about the site. Whether or not he'll join to post in a thread with a bunch of prowling hyenas is the question.

quote Originally posted by ANTEC900: on the bill of sale we put 432 cash now and the rest by check but he called the bank and told them not to cash the check Also we said we would hold the title till the check cleared on it

Seriously, is it $432 or $332? You've said both with a $1000 balance and an $1100 balance, which is it

quote Originally posted by cooguyfish: Seriously, is it $432 or $332? You've said both with a $1000 balance and an $1100 balance, which is it

Oh sorry it was a typo im on my phone its 332 and 1100

ahh this is what happens when stupid people buy cars without having them checked...
btw if the dude did put a stop on the check and he still has your car... call the police asap, that IS fraud.

Keep the title and dont give it to him till he pays you the agreed balance. Unless hes got something in writing, used cars are sold as is. He broke it tough luck. If hes a dealer, he can have his own techs install a used engine for a few hundred dollars. Dealer I do work for puts used motors in cars every week for that. I was up there last week and he just finished putting a good used Northstar in a Caddy for less than $1000. If he dont pay it, take him to court for it....plus court costs. Hes a dealer...he knows what as is means.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Keep the title and dont give it to him till he pays you the agreed balance. Unless hes got something in writing, used cars are sold as is. He broke it tough luck. If hes a dealer, he can have his own techs install a used engine for a few hundred dollars. Dealer I do work for puts used motors in cars every week for that. I was up there last week and he just finished putting a good used Northstar in a Caddy for less than $1000. If he dont pay it, take him to court for it....plus court costs. Hes a dealer...he knows what as is means.

We talked to him he wont give me the full amount and told us to come get the car and give his money back
and he said he talked to a attorney about this

How do I go about fileing fraud for the check he wrote

quote Originally posted by ANTEC900: We talked to him he wont give me the full amount and told us to come get the car and give his money back and he said he talked to a attorney about this How do I go about fileing fraud for the check he wrote

call the police right now...

quote Originally posted by ANTEC900: We talked to him he wont give me the full amount and told us to come get the car and give his money back and he said he talked to a attorney about this How do I go about fileing fraud for the check he wrote

Tell him to deliver the car back to you and keep the cash (but don't tell him that till the car is back at your place) he gave you for damages. If he does not return the car within 24 hours, consider it stolen and call the police...

quote Originally posted by ANTEC900: We talked to him he wont give me the full amount and told us to come get the car and give his money back and he said he talked to a attorney about this How do I go about fileing fraud for the check he wrote

Receiving a broken car that was not broken when it was sold and being out the cost of transporting it back home is out of the question. A Court battle is going to do more harm than good. As far as I'm concerned given the information provided, he pays tow bills, you pay repair bills. In my honest opinion, even though the water pump went 50 miles after you sold it (not your problem) he overheated the car while potentially cracking the head (user error and not your problem) just cut your losses at that. A court battle is a worse situation. He is however retarded if he thinks he is going to make you come get the car. If he is going to return the car for a refund, he has to RETURN THE CAR for a refund.
Every moment he holds the vehicle without payment beyond the original agreement is a moment the car is STOLEN. Considering his current position, I would explain that to him as a last resort and give him 24 hours should he accept. If he still refuses to return the vehicle, cash the check and call the police immediately.

Only on Pennock's! Sheesh.

There's plenty of good advice for you in here. I hope you've learned something from this; never hand the keys over to a buyer until you have all the cash in hand.

[This message has been edited by aeffertz (edited 06-19-2011).]

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: He said that late last night was the first time he realized it might be the water pump instead of a blown head/etc, and that when it died on the way home he canceled the check he had written you before you could cash it.

To the original poster, this statement makes the car officially stolen. Call the police and report it stolen. Seriously. You need leverage here, now. The car was stolen from you using a fraudulent check. A crime has been committed. Don't let this guy get away and steal from other people too. He'll keep on stealing as long as people like you let him get away with it.

Print out the statements made on this forum about how the guy was trying to do a burn out when he blew the water pump, and other statements, and take them to the police. Do it now. Every hour that goes by your chances of justice dwindle.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: To the original poster, this statement makes the car officially stolen. Call the police and report it stolen. Seriously. You need leverage here, now. The car was stolen from you using a fraudulent check. A crime has been committed. Don't let this guy get away and steal from other people too. He'll keep on stealing as long as people like you let him get away with it. Print out the statements made on this forum about how the guy was trying to do a burn out when he blew the water pump, and other statements, and take them to the police. Do it now. Every hour that goes by your chances of justice dwindle.

Just talked to the police they said its a civil case since he paid part cash and and the rest check
So it cant be reported stolen

Lazy police officer. The buyer never intended to pay you, that's how I see it, and that's fraud, which the last time I looked was a crime. Go talk to the DA at city hall, find out what they say.

Really, at this point you have few options:

1. Make arrangements to go get the car (which is what I would do), showing up unexpectedly since otherwise the thief will either move the car or strip it of valuable parts, maybe even claim that such strippage occurred while he wasn't looking.

2. Accept that you've been defrauded and move on, chalking it up to a very expensive lesson learned about transferring legal property.

3. File a civil case (not likely, as it will cost many thousands of dollars up front to pay the attorney in advance), though if you win you can get those fees back from the thief.

In any case, file a police report even if they won't investigate it as a crime, because you need some legal protections in case the car is used in a crime or incurs parking tickets and other fines which, as titled owner, you are legally responsible for. I would not give the thief the title. In fact, I'd burn the title before handing it over.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: Lazy police officer. The buyer never intended to pay you, that's how I see it, and that's fraud, which the last time I looked was a crime. Go talk to the DA at city hall, find out what they say. Really, at this point you have few options: 1. Make arrangements to go get the car (which is what I would do), showing up unexpectedly since otherwise the thief will either move the car or strip it of valuable parts, maybe even claim that such strippage occurred while he wasn't looking. 2. Accept that you've been defrauded and move on, chalking it up to a very expensive lesson learned about transferring legal property. 3. File a civil case (not likely, as it will cost many thousands of dollars up front to pay the attorney in advance), though if you win you can get those fees back from the thief. In any case, file a police report even if they won't investigate it as a crime, because you need some legal protections in case the car is used in a crime or incurs parking tickets and other fines which, as titled owner, you are legally responsible for. I would not give the thief the title. In fact, I'd burn the title before handing it over.

I have talked to like 5 deff people in the county and they said to file for a small calim
And I called the sherif department told them what he did and the said to call the court house thats who told me to file a small claim

Talking to cops is a total waste of time. Talk to the county attorney. Free, fast, and easy.

At least 10 people have posted that he committed theft/stolen the car/etc and that you should call the police, that is WRONG in the legal sense. In Indiana (And most other states), you cannot be criminally prosecuted for stopping payment on a check for a private sale if you actually had funds in the account to cover it. Like I said, courts have very little power in Indiana as compared to other places. This is usually a good thing, but sometimes a bad thing.

Not true...if the seller let the buyer take possession of the car and ANY money was exchanged, he has right of legal possession (Not ownership, but similar) of the vehicle until you legally take it from him through CIVIL court, which the police have nothing to do with.

Here's a good link explaining what is and isn't check fraud.
http://www.ckfraud.org/faq.html

Basically, it IS a civil matter. Told you not to call the police. but why would you listen to me?

Hopefully the police didn't contact your buyer and let him know you're trying to get the authorities involved. If he decided to keep it and part it, he'll make more money than he has in it, the police won't do a thing about it, and it will cost you twice as much in legal fees to get it back with a possible cracked head than you sold it to him for since you didn't write up a payment contract. I'll say it yet again...WORK SOMETHING OUT WITH YOUR BUYER. You keep complaining that he's nto calling you...why don't you call him? Are you scared? You obviously have no problem spending a long time on the phone calling all these different police stations, so why not spend that time talking to your buyer instead of making useless calls to the police? Be polite, and tell him you'll give him his money back when he returns the car to you. If you've already screamed and made threats at him you're probably SOL. If you need a cheap way of getting it towed, get a AAA Premier account. It's like 120$, and you get 4 tows up to 100 miles.

I'm about to pass into the no cell signal zone on a camping trip with my fiance's family for a week, so I probably won't be around to see how this unfolds. I am still going to Lafayette after I return (Later next week) and would be happy to check out the car while I'm there if this is still an issue.

And finally, ONCE AGAIN, the buyer isn't a car dealer. That is an assumption with no basis that everyone seems to believe just because someone on the internet said it.

[This message has been edited by MadDanceSkillz (edited 06-20-2011).]

quote Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: At least 10 people have posted that he committed theft/stolen the car/etc and that you should call the police, that is WRONG in the legal sense. In Indiana (And most other states), you cannot be criminally prosecuted for stopping payment on a check for a private sale if you actually had funds in the account to cover it. Like I said, courts have very little power in Indiana as compared to other places. This is usually a good thing, but sometimes a bad thing. Not true...if the seller let the buyer take possession of the car and ANY money was exchanged, he has right of legal possession (Not ownership, but similar) of the vehicle until you legally take it from him through CIVIL court, which the police have nothing to do with. Basically, it IS a civil matter. Told you not to call the police. but why would you listen to me? Hopefully the police didn't contact your buyer and let him know you're trying to get the authorities involved. If he decided to keep it and part it, he'll make more money than he has in it, the police won't do a thing about it, and it will cost you twice as much in legal fees to get it back with a possible cracked head than you sold it to him for since you didn't write up a payment contract. I'll say it yet again...WORK SOMETHING OUT WITH YOUR BUYER. You keep complaining that he's nto calling you...why don't you call him? Are you scared? You obviously have no problem spending a long time on the phone calling all these different police stations, so why not spend that time talking to your buyer instead of making useless calls to the police? Be polite, and tell him you'll give him his money back when he returns the car to you. If you've already screamed and made threats at him you're probably SOL. If you need a cheap way of getting it towed, get a AAA Premier account. It's like 120$, and you get 4 tows up to 100 miles. I'm about to pass into the no cell signal zone on a camping trip with my fiance's family for a week, so I probably won't be around to see how this unfolds. I am still going to Lafayette after I return (Later next week) and would be happy to check out the car while I'm there if this is still an issue. And finally, ONCE AGAIN, the buyer isn't a car dealer.

I gave no names to the police I just told them what happened and they said to call the court house and they said to file a clame again I gave out no names!!!

And all I want is the agreed apon amount but I will settle for alittle less at this point

The guy owes you money. No if and's or butts! Get to the AAA office and get a gold plan for 80 bucks and get your car back. When he asks for his money till him to blow it out his ass. Get the car and keep the cash. You at least have enough to fix it.........

Civil lawsuit under $3000 here costs you $23 to file. You dont need a lawyer for this. Bring any pertinent papers with you...title, receipts, checks, etc. He bought it at your house, so file it in that county. He has to come to your country court house when hes subpoenaed. If he loses, he has to pay you balance plus the court costs. If he even wins, he has to return the car to you. Tell him youll do that unless he either pays the balance in cash to you, or returns the car for a refund minus what it costs to fix what he broke.

Wow what a mess.

This may end up being one of those things you learn the hard way. Never let anyone take a car that they have not paid for. You are not a car lot or a bank so you are not protected when things go bad.

Bottom line, you sold a car.
The guy agreed on the price and payments.
The guy took the car and drove away.
The guy owes you the money and has a broken car.
Keep the bill of sale and title until he does

In a perfect world that is how it should go. But in the real world you have a useless title and he has a car that he cant drive.
He wants his money back tell him to bring the car back and you will refund it less the damage he caused.

Welcome to the real world I hope you enjoy your stay. Keep your feet and hands inside the car at all times.

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: He wants his money back tell him to bring the car back and you will refund it less the damage he caused.

Bingo.

Lol I just found my old fiero on craigslist and it says nothing about ever haveing a blown engine
http://tippecanoe.craigslis.../cto/2490129654.html

I am just wondering if anyone found out if he ever rely did blow the engine?

Was this resolved? How did he get a title to sell it?

quote Originally posted by weaselbeak: Was this resolved? How did he get a title to sell it?

Yea at the hands of my a** of a mom she gave him the title and I only got $890 for it
But I am so so so mad right now. now I probably wont be able to sleep lol

I just came across this thread and read it front to back and all I have to say is wow...

Is it the same phone number that you had for the buyer? And $1. With the "search words" Corvette and sports car in the add. That guy is a rip off specialist. Do you know the name of dealership he works at?

If this buyer works for an new car dealership, then they probably have a wrecker service available to them. Bet it didn't cost him $200. Also being a car salesman, he certainly knows that used vehicles are sold AS IS/WITHOUT WARRANTY unless otherwise provided in writing. The title is still in your name. Your Mom wasn't the DumbAzz when she suggested holding onto the title.

I certainly would demand to be allowed to inspect the vehicle and take someone with you who's qualified to look at it. Until the title is signed and transferred to him, the car legally belongs to you. lf he doesn't pay you as agreed and you must, the easiest way to retrieve the car is to go through Small Claims or Magistrates Court. In most states the fees are between $50 and $100 and if you prevail you also recover your filing expenses. If you do decide to go that route, be sure to tell the judge that he's a Used Car Salesman. I wouldn't give him even a 1 cent discount. He bought it, it's his. Cavaet Emptor!

Edit: I just scanned the last page. I think you have a good case in court. This man obviously set out to scam you.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 07-15-2011).]

As has been stated numerous times already in this thread, THE NEW OWNER IS NOT A CAR DEALER.

Also, that really sucks about handing over the title... you're just completely out the car and any extra cash he owed you.

quote Originally posted by ANTEC900: The guy sells new cars at a chevy dealer ship And used a dealer plate to take it home

This can be scary.

I would get detail about the "blown" engine and I agree with the others about this being one of the oldest scams.

If it does, indeed, have a damaged engine, you need to get details about the damage. Is it a simple broken part, rotor, distributor, ICM, it might not be to bad and it would not be your fault. It is an old car, sold as is. If it is a warped head or a rod through the engine that is different. But, very possibly, his fault if he over-reved it or over heated it.

It might be worth a hundred dollars or so to talk to a lawyer. A letter from a lawyer will go a long way towards helping resolve issues like this. The fact that he sells cars means he know enough about cars to be able to evaluate the condition of the vehicle he bought. He can really say "I don't know enough about cars to know there was a problem." He would also know the legal issues involved with buying and selling cars. Be careful with this guy!

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Jim Martin
White '86 GT
Monterey, California