I was wondering if anyone has plans or has already installed a LLT 3.6L into a Fiero? The LLT 3.6L (in a camaro) produces 300+ HP. Thats NA also on 87 Octane. WOW.

Just throwing it out there to see if anyone has done this or plans to. Thoughts comments?

There's been lots of talk of it but to my knowledge no one has tried it yet. The major hurdle to overcome is the electrical system, just about EVERYTHING is integrated into that ECU. That being said, if one has the time, patience, and money, I think it would be WELL worth it. The engine is pretty kickin' in my 3750 lb. Camaro as far as low end torque AND top end power, I can only imagine how fun it would be in a car weighing 1000 lbs less.

It's rated at 312hp in the Camaro, but myself and others have concluded that GM's claim that it'll run perfectly like that on 87 octane is a bit optimistic. I dyno'd my car and got a square-wave of a power curve 2 out of the 4 pulls, indicating constant knock (the ECU pulls timing when it senses knock, ramps it back in when the knock is gone because it had pulled timing, then it senses knock again, and the cycle repeats over and over).

I run mine on 93 octane only now just to fully nip that in the bud, and others have done the same and had positive results.

Either way, it's an awesome engine, easily one of the best GM has ever made.

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'10 Camaro LT/RS, 312hp V6 6-speed
'88 Fiero GT - coming soon! - Project MIDTRBO

The rest of my cars are for sale
There's no replacement for turbo placement

If you search on here there's a couple threads where there was some guy somewhere doing it but he disappeared. I'm waiting for some pro to do it who I could pay, I just don't want to be first.

With its broad rpm, and power range, mated to a 6-speed a Fiero would fly.

HI all

Talk to fierox, name on forum... IIRC, he started a thread on this motor, and knew quite a bit about it.... He even has his own shop too.... What would a pm hurt??

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Me, I sell engines, the cars are for free, I need something to crate the engines in....
Enzo Ferrari....

Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines....
Enzo Ferrari...

Today they are called garage's, yesterday, they were stable's! Eric Jacobsen....

I was thinking of it for a swap, but if you look at the power curve the 3.9 has more power. It may have 300+ hp at a high rpm, but what about a bit lower of an rpm? check out the 60 degree v6 people for more information. Also, something else to think about, with it being a 54 degree the hight will be much higher. So there mught be some fun to be had when closing the deck lid. Just my 2c, but it would be one sweet ride!
Matthew

I'll be going with the LY7 and F40 6 speed in my 85 GT, after I finish with my LS4+F40 in my 87 GT. I think it's easy for people to get stuck on the LLT though, since it is just over 300hp at the crank, and it's in the Camaro, and gets 28mpg hwy in it. But there are a lot of other engines based on the same block platform. And they have plenty of potential too.

I don't know if the LLT and LY7 (and other FWD versions) share the same bolt pattern, but I believe they do. FWIW though, the G6 GXP of the last couple years came with the LY7 rated at about 250 hp, mated to the 6 speed automatic. If you want a a good sounding DOHC, and paddle shifting with the TapShift steering wheels, then that would be an excellent swap. There's also a version of the LY7 in some Holdens, that can run on LPG, which is another very interesting option. And given that the LLT is around 11.4:1 compression, I don't think I'd recommend running 87 in it, ever, as also evidenced by ALLTRBO's dyno run mentioned above.

They were also planning to make a V12 using the same platform, for some Caddys, but scrapped it. That certainly would have been an interesting swap into a Fiero.

oops, my mistake. I am trying to find a post on another forum about a compairson between the two, I think they were compared at 5200 rpm, and there was a fair differance between them.
Matt

quote Originally posted by dobey: ... the G6 GXP of the last couple years came with the LY7 rated at about 250 hp, mated to the 6 speed automatic. If you want a a good sounding DOHC, and paddle shifting with the TapShift steering wheels, then that would be an excellent swap. ...

I SO want to do this swap.
The largest problem that I can think of is making the PCM run "stand-alone" without all the other modules that it wants to talk with.
Several peeople say that they can (probably) make it work, but I don't know of anyone who has.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I SO want to do this swap. The largest problem that I can think of is making the PCM run "stand-alone" without all the other modules that it wants to talk with. Several peeople say that they can (probably) make it work, but I don't know of anyone who has.

I can, and will make it work. But I have to finish my LS4 first. After I get it running, then I'll start looking at getting everything I need to do my 85 GT rebuild. It will get the LY7 and an F40 trans. I'll be using most if not all the other modules though, as I'll be installing a G6 dash and lots of the other goodies that come in the G6 GXP and other modern cars.

So the 2011 Camaro's 3.6 v6 is rated at 312hp, with 29 mpg stock. Im trying to imagine one of these in a fiero. I think it would be great! I know someone is working on this. Its ok let your secret out!

[This message has been edited by iluvsd619 (edited 12-29-2010).]

quote Originally posted by dobey: I'll be going with the LY7 and F40 6 speed in my 85 GT,

I think one of the reasons the LLT is so attractive IS because it's from a Camaro. What this means to me, is that there will be a TON of aftermarket support for it. It's funny, I actually plan on grabbing a 85 GT and doing a LLT mated to a F40, but like a lot of people want someone to actually complete it first. Just my $.02.


** EDIT** I'm not saying the LY7 won't have similar options for aftermarket, especially how they're so similar. As a matter of fact I don't even know what the differences are, if any. FieroX WAS saying he had access to one of these and it was supposed to have been his project this past year. I wonder what happened?

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 12-29-2010).]

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I think one of the reasons the LLT is so attractive IS because it's from a Camaro. What this means to me, is that there will be a TON of aftermarket support for it. It's funny, I actually plan on grabbing a 85 GT and doing a LLT mated to a F40, but like a lot of people want someone to actually complete it first. Just my $.02. ** EDIT** I'm not saying the LY7 won't have similar options for aftermarket, especially how they're so similar. As a matter of fact I don't even know what the differences are, if any. FieroX WAS saying he had access to one of these and it was supposed to have been his project this past year. I wonder what happened?

The differences are very small. They are almost exactly the same engine. Even the 2.8 DOHC in the newer Saabs is pretty much exactly the same. The only real differences between the LY7 and LLT are the compression ratio and direct injection. The G6 F40 might be usable with an adapter plate, but to do it right, you'd need a Saab F40 from a car with the 2.8. The bell housings are different on the G6, 2.8 Saab, and Ecotec Saabs, afaik.

I wonder how hard a 3.6 swap from a new Malibu would be. Not as much horsepower, around 260 I believe, and no direct injection, but it comes mated to a 6 speed auto with tap shift already set up. Might make a pretty nice auto swap.

quote Originally posted by Rick 88: I wonder how hard a 3.6 swap from a new Malibu would be. Not as much horsepower, around 260 I believe, and no direct injection, but it comes mated to a 6 speed auto with tap shift already set up. Might make a pretty nice auto swap.

Should be pretty easy. That's the LY7. It comes in a lot of GM vehicles, and only with an auto I think.

Why would the ly7 be any easier than the llt ?

quote Originally posted by Scottzilla79: Why would the ly7 be any easier than the llt ?

The Direct Injection requires extra work to the fuel system that isn't required with the non-DI engines. I don't know that I would call the extra work hard, but it's more work.

Aside from that, they should be pretty much equal in what is required to install a running one in a Fiero.

Oh ok, I have the LY7 6T70 combo in my g6 and would like to put that in a fiero but would LOVE the LLT
But I'll have to wait until I can pay someone to do it for a decent $.

quote Originally posted by Rick 88: I wonder how hard a 3.6 swap from a new Malibu would be. Not as much horsepower, around 260 I believe, and no direct injection, but it comes mated to a 6 speed auto with tap shift already set up. Might make a pretty nice auto swap.

If that's the LY7, that's the one I want. Didn't know it was available in a Malibu.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: If that's the LY7, that's the one I want. Didn't know it was available in a Malibu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._High_Feature_engine lists them all. Quite a bit of opportunities for garnering one of the high feature V6s.

I was contemplating doing this swap. At the end of the day, I decided on the 3.9 instead. HP Tuners does not have this particular ECU cracked yet and say it may be a very long time. This would almost surely require swapping nearly the entire electrical system.

quote Originally posted by UND_Sioux: I was contemplating doing this swap. At the end of the day, I decided on the 3.9 instead. HP Tuners does not have this particular ECU cracked yet and say it may be a very long time. This would almost surely require swapping nearly the entire electrical system.

I don't know about this. Jay Leno had a twin turbo LLT Camaro built at SEMA a couple of years ago. There's no way they could have done it without being able to tune it. If the engines are that similar, I can't see the PCM's being that different?

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 12-29-2010).]

Jay Leno's car wasn't tuned I've heard, it was/is all show until they get a tune for it, but the TT setup is real and functional.
One company (a one-guy company from what I understand) cracked into it more recently, Trifecta Performance. He's supposedly the only one who has (and he won't share his secrets). He tunes N/A, nitrous, and the STS rear-mount turbo kit for the LLT Camaro, but last I heard they were still working on sorting the fuel past 5 psi for that. With 5 psi people are making right at 350hp at the wheels, and that's with massive drivetrain losses. There is more to go.
I don't know how deep he's been able to go into the ECU and I don't know exactly what modules are required for it to run, but as I mentioned it is a VERY integrated ECU, some signals even run through the radio.

HP Tuners has been quoted as saying that the LLT ECU is very low on their priority list because they don't think enough people have shown the demand yet (or something like that).

Dobey is dead-on with everything he said AFAIK.

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'88 Fiero GT - Project MIDTRBO
'10 Camaro LT/RS - daily driver
'96 Talon TSi AWD - 11-second winter beater
There's no replacement for turbo placement

I just looked up more info on Jay's Camaro. It turns out GM built it for him. It doesn't say anything about the turbos not being functional, as a matter of fact it says the engine produces 425 HP, so I imagine everything works. Since GM built it for him, it kind of negated my thinking on the matter though.

I'm thinking the easiest route would be a standalone ECU. Not that big of a deal, although the yard price on an HFV6 is still a little too high over here for me to consider this sort of swap. It's almost the perfect engine for the job though - revvy and plenty of power... like a dream come true for a Fiero...

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Drive a new Malibu with the 3.6 V6. It pulls pretty hard, and has a broad RPM range. In a Fiero it would be even more fun!

quote Originally posted by ALLTRBO: I don't know how deep he's been able to go into the ECU and I don't know exactly what modules are required for it to run, but as I mentioned it is a VERY integrated ECU, some signals even run through the radio.

I'm guessing there is less interest in modding the programming than it is difficult for someone to actually figure out the ECU program. But given the tiny aftermarket there is for the HFV6 engines currently, I'm sure HP Tuners and whoever else are more interested in improving their support for engines where there is a larger aftermarket; the LSx family.

The stereo and the ECM are separate entities. The former isn't required for the latter. However, in all the new cars everything does communicate over the CAN bus, and all the electronics can be controlled and monitored through OnStar where equipped.

If I didn't have a million other things to do right now instead, I'm sure I could figure out the ECM code pretty easily.

quote Originally posted by dobey: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik..._High_Feature_engine lists them all. Quite a bit of opportunities for garnering one of the high feature V6s.

Thanks for the link!
I noticed that the LY7 in the Acadia and other minivans is rated at 275 HP. Quite a difference for just being plugged into a minivan body.
I remember reading that the back spark plugs in the minivans were a bear to get to. One article even said that the engine was canted to the rear.
I wonder if there's any real difference in those powertrains, other than the mounts. Or maybe they're not really canted, just that there is sheetmetal in the way, tha makes them appear so.

Regardless, I really want to do this swap, 6 speed AT and all.
Please keep us posted if you get brave and decide to jump in.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Regardless, I really want to do this swap, 6 speed AT and all. Please keep us posted if you get brave and decide to jump in.

I'm definitely going to do it. But I won't be getting to it for a while. My LS4 swap has to get done first. But I've already got my 85GT build pretty much entirely planned out, and the LY7 + F40 trans is the drivetrain going into it.

This is going to be my next swap. I promised a friend of mine I would do it for him since he already has the drivetrain from a Buick (not direct injected) and a needy '87 GT. I believe this motor uses Bosch electronics but I should be able to use it since we're going with the Buick tranny. Does anyone know where I can get this tuned at a basic level?

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Alan Frazier

'84 2m4 Northstar 5 speed
'84 3800SCII sold
'86 GT-'92 3.4 TDC 5 speed(sold)

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Thanks for the link! I noticed that the LY7 in the Acadia and other minivans is rated at 275 HP. Quite a difference for just being plugged into a minivan body. I remember reading that the back spark plugs in the minivans were a bear to get to. One article even said that the engine was canted to the rear. I wonder if there's any real difference in those powertrains, other than the mounts. Or maybe they're not really canted, just that there is sheetmetal in the way, tha makes them appear so. Regardless, I really want to do this swap, 6 speed AT and all. Please keep us posted if you get brave and decide to jump in.

I believe the new Traverse is also direct injected and it has a lower restriction exhaust system than the Malibu. That is the reason for the power difference.

Ideally I would like to find a new takeout SAAB 2.8 Turbo with the 6 speed manual transaxle. It is the same engine design as the 3.6 and puts out similar power to the DI motor, and is attached to a manual gearbox. That way I could honestly say, "It's a 2.8"

[This message has been edited by Rick 88 (edited 12-30-2010).]

quote Originally posted by neverendingproject: This is going to be my next swap. I promised a friend of mine I would do it for him since he already has the drivetrain from a Buick (not direct injected) and a needy '87 GT. I believe this motor uses Bosch electronics but I should be able to use it since we're going with the Buick tranny. Does anyone know where I can get this tuned at a basic level?

A GM dealer or someone with the GM tools is the only place you could get it tuned afaik. But as you see in the previous posts, nobody else is really trying to figure out the programming on the high feature engines right now.

What's the difference between the Saab F40 gearbox and the G6? Is it only the bell housing? If so, can the bell housing from a Saab F40 be swapped to a G6 F40 gearbox?

quote Originally posted by Eau_Rouge: What's the difference between the Saab F40 gearbox and the G6? Is it only the bell housing? If so, can the bell housing from a Saab F40 be swapped to a G6 F40 gearbox?

Well, there are two patterns on the Saab F40s. There's the HFV6 pattern, and the Ecotec pattern. So you stil lhave to get the right one. It would probably be cheaper to just buy the trans, than to try and buy a G6 trans, and a bellhousing for the right Saab trans, and then fit them together.

Depending on the year of the trans, the gear ratios might not be exactly what you want, but that's the same with the G6 version too.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...bellhousing_patterns

I know that the custom ECM would be the easiest route but this method looks unlikely due to the little after market support available. What about doing a plug and play type setup using a Cadillac cts ECM/BCM?
Remember, the 3.6 VVT was sold in the CTS with a 6 speed manual trans. I know the setup in the CTS was longitudinal and therefore used a different trans than the G6 6 speed but given the OEM CTS ECM controlled a manual trans, it should be able to control the G6 F40 trans.
If this method works, it should be the easiest method to getting this engine and a manual trans in a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by Eau_Rouge: I know that the custom ECM would be the easiest route but this method looks unlikely due to the little after market support available. What about doing a plug and play type setup using a Cadillac cts ECM/BCM? Remember, the 3.6 VVT was sold in the CTS with a 6 speed manual trans. I know the setup in the CTS was longitudinal and therefore used a different trans than the G6 6 speed but given the OEM CTS ECM controlled a manual trans, it should be able to control the G6 F40 trans. If this method works, it should be the easiest method to getting this engine and a manual trans in a Fiero.

The CTS came with either the LY7 or LLT (or the smaller versions earlier), depending on year. I don't know that using the CTS ECM will help or hurt doing the swap. The ECM doesn't control the manual transmissions at all. It just reads the two (I think) sensors. The bell housing pattern for the LLT, LY7 etc… is all the same regardless of orientation. It's the HFV6 pattern. To use the F40 trans, you'll need one from a Saab 2.8t. Or you'll have to build an adapter plate. and get a thicker flywheel. I think the best ECM and harness to start with, is that for the Saab 2.8t + F40, if you want to do a HFV6 + F40 swap. It's already got the right connections in the right place. It's probably the same ECM hardware as the CTS anyway. What matters is the programming. In the current total GM 2011 model lineup, there are probably at most only 6 different ECMs they actually use.

Was the LY7 in the CTS ever actually offered with a manual trans though? The LLT probably is, but I think the other HFV6 options that were previously available in the CTS, were only available with the automatic.

If Wikipedia is right, the CTS has always been offered with a manual. 2002-2004 had a Getrag 260, and 2005+ has the Aisin AY6, which is a total POS by pretty much all accounts. I know this because my Camaro got the same one, but with slightly worse gearing.

quote Originally posted by dobey: The Direct Injection requires extra work to the fuel system that isn't required with the non-DI engines. I don't know that I would call the extra work hard, but it's more work.

Looking into it, the LY7 and LLT both get their fuel the same way, a returnless system with a standard pump.
The LLT then cranks the pressure way up (my Camaro idles at 500psi. It goes up to about 2000psi at redline IIRC) by using an engine driven mechanical fuel pump. The LY7, of course, doesn't.
What would the difference be to put either of them into a Fiero?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I just looked up more info on Jay's Camaro. It turns out GM built it for him. It doesn't say anything about the turbos not being functional, as a matter of fact it says the engine produces 425 HP, so I imagine everything works. Since GM built it for him, it kind of negated my thinking on the matter though.

This is all by memory from a few months ago, so... grain of salt and all that.
At SEMA someone on the Camaro5 forum talked to some of the GM guys who built the car and they said that the ECU hadn't been touched so it didn't actually 'work' yet, even though the whole turbo system was fully functional. The 425hp figure was what it 'should' be putting out.
This all sounds like a load of cow dung given the 'evidence' found on the internet (though not much), but the way that Camaro5 member had put it it sounded honest and like they knew what they were talking about. I guess I'll have to go dig up the thread so I'm not spreading unsubstantiated rumors.

Wouldn't it be easier to just install the complete HF 2.8 turbo V6 Saab engine and matching 6-speed manual transaxle since they are already designed to work together? I rode in one of these cars and it was pretty impressive. Too bad there is not a stand alone ECM for these. I would really like a driveline like this in my car.

Someone please please please figure out how to get this engine in our cars. It would be quite impressive unmodded. I'm assuming its also a solid amount lighter than the stock 2.8 or all 3.4 variants and 3.8s, since if I'm not mistaken- its an aluminum block/ heads.