I have been toying with the idea of doing a complete LED re-fit of the rear-end and side markers for my Fiero.

I have started production for my own vehicle of the rear light panels and the controller boards. This is a complete LED replacement for the notchback. Fitting it to a GT is quite simple, and only requires a different LED panel to fit the tail light lenses.

I am trying to guage interest in this as a potential product for the Fiero market.

Keep in mind, with the number of LEDs and the control circuits that this is not necessarily going to be a "cheap" product.

Judging from what I currently have into this, I am estimating that the cost for a Notchback kit will be around $400.00 and a GT kit will be about $100.00 more due to adding additional control for the turn signals and brake/park lights...

These are not replacement bulbs that just pop into place. These are full boards that fit into the housing and require some wiring skill. The modules will be as close to plug and play as possible.

I will post more details as I complete various parts of my assembly and testing phases.

My overall goal for this project: A "seamless" appearance across the rear of the vehicle. The entire notchback tail light panel to be lit in both park and brake modes.. Reverse lights integral to the LED panels as well.

The GT kit will look stock, except for the fact that LEDs are brighter, turn on instantly, and last for a very long time... Plus, you won't get the inconsistent pattern of light through the lense that you do with incandescent bulbs.

The control system for my project is configured to have all light panels on with the brakes, or individual triggers for each LED segment. (Think Sequential or various effects.)

Before anyone asks, this is similar to the 1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse tail lights that have been making the rounds lately.

All control boards are designed and built by me from scratch. I had been thinking about doing this for a long time, and the Mitsubishi beat me to it, and gave me the kick in the pants I needed to get back to work on this again.

[This message has been edited by Synthesis (edited 01-12-2008).]

Get it to work with the bugs worked out and I would take one. heck I would even help as the test goat.

id' take one for my 88gt / definatly !!!!!!

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http://i252.photobucket.com...ec/2007_12240001.jpg

Will be interested for our 87GT.

I think it would be pretty cool, I'll reserve my commitment when I see your future progress. -Jason

Any news?

Yup..

Prototype PWM and LED VRMs are built, running them through tests now with varying loads.

I am also working on a Micro controller based control board for both PWM and Voltage Regulation for an all in one low heat when running, no power draw when key is off circuit.

This one may take a while to get a full functioning panel going due to lack of fundage to finish picking up the rest of the initial LEDs.

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: Yup.. Prototype PWM and LED VRMs are built, running them through tests now with varying loads. I am also working on a Micro controller based control board for both PWM and Voltage Regulation for an all in one low heat when running, no power draw when key is off circuit. This one may take a while to get a full functioning panel going due to lack of fundage to finish picking up the rest of the initial LEDs.

Well then! ........ Now that you said that, how bout some pics! -Jason

I'd be interested. Done right, LED's give an awesome look to almost any car.

Well, my LEDs are on the way. Once I have the rest of my components, I will snap some pictures during the prototype build process.

I need to get my hands on a large quantity of PCB in large sizes.

I am debating whether people want multiple rows of LEDs that are visible AS rows, or if they want a smooth even flow. I can build to order for any of the designs... But I think I want to build a few designs first.

I'm interested, but I'd have to see the final product before I could say for sure.
I like the idea of full width lighting on the notchback lights. Maybe also have the option of displaying "PONTIAC" between the reverse lights, similar to the paint kits we've seen to do that.

i would like to see your designs

here is my first try with LED for the notchie



i guess i will try something next set which is near to the original design or something with 4 red squares each side but with small led then

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1984 Fiero Sport
1987 Fiero <- Ethanol powered Batmobile
1984 Fiero SE
1999 Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 LX <-LPG powered family car

*** nuclear winter cures global warming ***

I would want one for an 88GT

If I actually make a project car, it would be worth it. Check back in at least 6 months....

Brian

quote Originally posted by Fieromaniac: i would like to see your designs here is my first try with LED for the notchie i guess i will try something next set which is near to the original design or something with 4 red squares each side but with small led then

Those look good. My idea involves fitting panels behind the stock lenses and maintaining the stock appearance. My long term goal for my personal vehicle is that the lense itself looks like it is giving off the light, not individual light points.

Again, yours looks good.

If these were a solid look, as opposed to the obvious rows, I would be interested in a notchback set.
I'm definetely ready to see some pictures.

That's something I was looking into but the place I priced quality LEDs from would have made the cost of them over $400 so I passed on the idea. But I did design a neat system that would look great. It's designed for a notchback but the brake wire is cut from the turn signal and run to the back using an existing cruise control wire.

quote Originally posted by DIY_Stu: That's something I was looking into but the place I priced quality LEDs from would have made the cost of them over $400 so I passed on the idea. But I did design a neat system that would look great. It's designed for a notchback but the brake wire is cut from the turn signal and run to the back using an existing cruise control wire.

Pretty slick.

I had the idea to angle the LEDs for this type of setup. I see you alternated yours though. Turn and brakes. That would look slick. AND you included the VRM on the LED board. Nice.

I already have my primary layouts in place for my car. My VRMs and PWM will be located in a separate control box, and then wired into the lights via a "ribbon" style cable.

Ok here is my take on this. I can get behind the idea to have a big circuit board to mount the LED's to just to make it easier to mass produce but the pull up and control parts should be separate encased in something that will protect them from the environment. And you would have to be able to just disconnect the regular taillights and plug these in to make it bullet proof for the masses. But it is a really cool after market mod!!

quote Originally posted by FieroJam: Ok here is my take on this. I can get behind the idea to have a big circuit board to mount the LED's to just to make it easier to mass produce but the pull up and control parts should be separate encased in something that will protect them from the environment. And you would have to be able to just disconnect the regular taillights and plug these in to make it bullet proof for the masses. But it is a really cool after market mod!!

Yes. You get the general idea.

The light boards mount inside the tail light housings. I have yet to determine if a full one piece board can fit in the housing without modification to the housing. IF it can, then being able to go back to 100% factory wiring with incandescent bulbs will be fairly easy. If it can't, then this is a one way street unless you have spare tail light housings laying around.

The control circuitry would be housed in a casing that could be mounted inside the trunk. I am also looking into making a control box that would be weather tight and use GM Weatherpak connectors so that it could be mounted in a location other than the trunk.

First, I need to finish testing of the prototypes, get a few boards etched, and then get a set into my car for long term testing.

interested....

I'd be really interested. Especially for a fastback.

Synth,

I was looking for a board big enough to make these in a single piece but I couldn't find one long enough. So I actual figured to make the board in many pieces. Each piece containing one row amber and red. This would make mass production a lot easier. Feel free to use the design above. The idea was 7 segment sequential turns. Putting the electronics in a sealed enclosure is a much better idea though.

so if you fit the LED board behind the original lense do you plan to cut out the reflectors or do you design a new back for the taillights ?
Espeacially on the Topside of the lense there isnt much space left between lense and backside .

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1984 Fiero Sport
1987 Fiero <- Ethanol powered Batmobile
1984 Fiero SE
1999 Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 LX <-LPG powered family car

*** nuclear winter cures global warming ***

quote Originally posted by Fieromaniac: so if you fit the LED board behind the original lense do you plan to cut out the reflectors or do you design a new back for the taillights ? Espeacially on the Topside of the lense there isnt much space left between lense and backside .

That IS the Million Dollar Question now .

I realize there is a space limitation, as well as the reinforcement ribs and screw mounts for the light assemblies that go through from top to bottom.

I have yet to determine if the reflectors have to be modified, or if I need to make individual boards for a "Mass production" type setup.

Again, my long term goal for my PERSONAL vehicle is a long smooth light pattern across the lens. I do not want any dark spots or drops in light intensity between the "bulbs", like you currently get with incandescent bulbs.

If you look at a stock notchback tail light, you can tell that there are 3 individual bulbs running for park/turn/stop. You can see the bright spots for the bulb itself, you can see the darker spots around the edges of the reflectors. You get 3 distinct lights visible. I don't want that on my car. I want the light to appear smooth and seamless.

If I can extend that all the way across the light panel, so that even the center dead section looks the same, I will have completed my goal for my car.

Now, that number of LEDs on a board can become labor and price prohibitive, so I also intend to draw up individual "Bulb replacement" boards which fit into each reflector, and give you the 3 distinct "bulb" appearance.
This will still give a smooth and even light pattern per board, you would get a small "line" between "bulbs", but I have yet to test that and verify how it will look.
Also, for this style of light, again, the number of LEDs can become price prohibitive, so depending on feedback on individual styles, I may draw up a set that has distinct visible points of light from each LED. Similar to modern vehicles with LED lights. Many people like those.

I also would like to be able to put these in without having to remove the lenses if possible. Otherwise, I may have to find a good clear red lens material, and cut replacement panels.

We will see what happens.

DIY_Stu.

That is a good idea. I plan for mine to be segmented as well, and have already finished the schematics on the light panels.
The control box will be quite a bit different to be able to control the segmented panels, but the ability to trigger each panel individually will be a nice feature to have.
I currently have Lawrence's Sequential lights in my car, along with his flashing third brake light module. I will be integrating those into the control circuit for my car.

Pliug-n-play sounds really nice. I already have a spare taillight set for each of my fieros if modification is required. I doubt I would do more trhan one though in the near future though.

i made some pics for you standard taillight opened
less than 1 cm distance between reflector and lense
and 1 board per taillight is also nearly impossible when you want to keep the original reflector

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1984 Fiero Sport
1987 Fiero <- Ethanol powered Batmobile
1984 Fiero SE
1999 Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 LX <-LPG powered family car

*** nuclear winter cures global warming ***

Thank you for the photos. I have been into the notchback lights numerous times, but did not have a pair here to see first hand. Your photos are very helpful.

It does look like the tail light conversion would require modification, no matter how you cut it.

I could make circuit boards that would fit the curvature of the reflector sides, that would not be difficult. But then you end up with the initial dilemma...What do you do about the dark edges between lights?

It looks like modification may be required. Which could move this from the realm of an amateur style upgrade to a home tinkerer/professional upgrade.


We will see how this turns out. I have a friend who works in plastics. I may be able to get replacement rear housings molded off of a modified stock base.

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: What do you do about the dark edges between lights? It looks like modification may be required. Which could move this from the realm of an amateur style upgrade to a home tinkerer/professional upgrade. We will see how this turns out. I have a friend who works in plastics. I may be able to get replacement rear housings molded off of a modified stock base.

i used the original lense and glued the led into them so they enlight the surrounding material . i guess if i dremel the hat of the LED flat i have a round beam LED i will try this out .

but for your project maybei ts best to create a new backwall buuuuuuut i see another problem because the red lense isnt flat ant if the board is in various distances to the lense you get problems to generate clean optical effects

here you see what i mean :



the clear lense is flat

------------------
1984 Fiero Sport
1987 Fiero <- Ethanol powered Batmobile
1984 Fiero SE
1999 Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 LX <-LPG powered family car

*** nuclear winter cures global warming ***

I understand exactly what you mean. I don't think I will have an issue with the optical effect in this case. Not with what I have in mind.

Of course, everyone knows my car will be the first one, and will of course also be the complete light bar. Gotta have the first and best :P

I might be interested if they have a 3D look like the Audi R8 taillights.
(I have a notchie)

Either way it'll be an interesting project to watch.

Well, I received most of my components, and have started a rough breadboard for the LEDs. I decided to do a "Proof of concept" and create a third brake light bulb replacement.

Since I have Lawrence's Rapid Flashing brake light module, I decided to integrate that into my circuit. Because of the way that Lawrence (WebElectric Products) encases his circuits for weather protection, I determined that dismantling it would destroy it, thus I would not be able to embed his exact circuit into my design.

Therefor, I have been working on a circuit design that I believe will do the same thing his does, flashing the third brake light rapidly and then coming on solid until the brake is released. While this does attract attention with the stock halogen bulb, I believe it would be even more pronounced to have it cycle LEDs instead of an incandescent bulb.

I am testing the PWM and VRM I built on these, but I have also ordered a kit from AZDave to play with. It arrived yesterday, and I have to say, it is top notch. Very basic for someone who just wants the initial on/off of LEDs. I intend to go a bit more full featured than that.

Anyway, on with the initial pictures.

This is a top view of the breadboard array running the LEDs at the lowest setting that I can on my PWM.


Here is a top view of the same LED array running at 100% Duty Cycle. Note: This is ONLY 16 LEDs, and I am running a resistor that is more than 4 times the resistance of the recommended rating for this LED Array. This means they run with less current than they are rated for, hence, dimmer than normal. These are 4 series circuits running parallel as a whole. Each one consists of 4 LEDs with a 100 ohm 1/2 watt Resistor. Circuit schematics call for a 22 ohm 1/4 watt resistor, but I do not have any on hand.


For the record, I am still seeing spots 30 minutes after glancing at them at full power one time. LOL.

Here is full power from a 45 degree angle. I held the shutter button for too long, and the camera compensated for the brightness. I am NOT a photography pro, so have no clue how to shut that off.


I am thinking that I will be able to replace my halogen third lamp bulb tonight with LEDs.

Synth-

i think we have a set of crap notchie taillights at my dad's place in lakeville if your looking for some to play with

let me know!

Blake

quote Originally posted by 85sliverGT: Synth- i think we have a set of crap notchie taillights at my dad's place in lakeville if your looking for some to play with let me know! Blake

That would be great! I just need something I can disassemble, use for testing/modification. I can replace them once I get a functional set together if you need me to.

I am available most days after 4:30PM.

quote Originally posted by Synthesis: That would be great! I just need something I can disassemble, use for testing/modification. I can replace them once I get a functional set together if you need me to. I am available most days after 4:30PM.

well i was at my dads last night working on the 3.8 project and we do have a set you can have. are you going to be around this weekend?

also they are already taken apart for you so i just need to get them over to ya!

Sweet!

Yeah, I will be around this weekend. No major plans that I am aware of. Was hoping for another MOA get together soon, something indoors...

im sorry to hear that. i suppose sometime next week is fine with me, just let me know when your available.

Blake

Heh. Sorry for no updates in a while. I need to get updated LED Third Lamp pictures.