Not forsure how many of yall have saw these being posted about over at Club GP so I thought I would post over here so the Fiero side would know about them. The W-body store is now offering reworked fuel rails for the 3800SC at a very good price, $99.00 plus 25.00 core charge for the stock rails. The design is based off what Skitime and Rbrockey have on there 3800SC setup and am sure this is where the idea came from. I ordered a set for my IC motor today and should have them in a few weeks and will give reviews on how they work out. The way they are setup on the GP though puts the FPR in the front for the Fiero, I have asked if there will be a problem with turning them around so its in the rear. I am waiting on a reply but will post the responce once I get it. This beats the hell out of the $375-$450 that other vendors charge for there fuel rails. Of course these are nice billet rails but they serve the purpose and take the rails off the top of the SC. With a little paint or polishing, they will look damn good and the price is great. If the first set works out well, then I will be ordering another set for my 5 speed motor. Here is a link to the W-body Store: http://www.wbodystore.com/grandprix/product_info.php?products_id=136&osCsid=7a2803777aae196254ea76692152140f
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11:41 PM
PFF
System Bot
Oct 11th, 2006
FIERO1985 Member
Posts: 801 From: Columbus Oh, USA Registered: Nov 2000
Well I have made my own rails in the past and plan on making my own for the 3.8sc as well, and looks alot cleaner than wbody reworked and cheaper than zzp hell you can buy fuel rail stock for 12/ft stock rails are 15 inch long a side....just a thought and they are super easy to make afterwards have them polished or powdercoated and add some braided line I am betting I can have a set of great looking and flowing rails for less than 125 for sure
dan
------------------ NO MORE!!!! GOING 3.8SC cammed, intercooled and pulley oh my
Well I have made my own rails in the past and plan on making my own for the 3.8sc as well, and looks alot cleaner than wbody reworked and cheaper than zzp hell you can buy fuel rail stock for 12/ft stock rails are 15 inch long a side....just a thought and they are super easy to make afterwards have them polished or powdercoated and add some braided line I am betting I can have a set of great looking and flowing rails for less than 125 for sure
dan
Yeah--A friend made a set of fuel rails using the fuel rail stock off E_bay and they came out nice. After you add the FPR, the braided fuel line and the fitting, you will be over the $125 mark unless you buy all the parts ar good deals. Of course it want be by much so DIY fuel rails are well worth the time and money that goes into them. If you can make a set for $125, I will take 2 sets of them when you have them ready. I have 2 sets of ZZP proto-type fuel rails I bought a long while back but havnt messed with them much.
Well I got the reply from the question I asked about flipping them, its not what I wantd to hear but will see how they work out. Here is what I asked--
Ron--I am asummng you are the man behind the making of these rails being you have so much input about them. I E-mailed Mike and got some information from him but he couldnt give me everything. I ordered a set fo the rails today and would like some info aboutt hem before they are ready. They are going on a IC Fiero so the way they are setup, it will put the FPR setup in the front on the Fiero. Of course thats not as clean as if it was on the oppsite side, which would be the backside for the Fiero. Will these rails be able to be turned around, bolted on securely and work if they are flipped around? From looking at the picture, I dont see a problem but would like some input about them before I get them. If they will work out with no issues then thats great and alot of Fiero owners will buy into them because they are CHEAP( We Fiero ppl are CHEAP). Thanks in advance for the information.
Here is the reply I got--
Unfortunately they won't work flipped. The rails dip below the LIM deck at the front of the motor to clear IC plumbing. If they are turned around, it wouln't clear on the TB side.
If you know of someone local to the Chicago area that wants a set, I'd gladly make them up. It's a lot easier to fab something up with the car there to look for issues in design over doing it from pictures. The other option is to add threaded bungs to accept NPT fittings on the ends of the rails. This would keep costs down, but it would be up to the end-user to configure the added plumbing
I think looking at the pictures I can get the fuel rails to clear the TB once they are flipped but cant be forsure till I get them in. Will post what I find out about them once they are in and be tried out.
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12:44 AM
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
If they dont clear being flipped as Ron Vogel stated in his reply to me, I think I already have a solution for it. I think it is what he mentioned in his reply but not forsure. But if I have to, I can cut the loop around, bend then slightly up and add compression AN fitting with a braided line under or over the TB. This should add a few extra dollars to makeing the rails work but will be welll worth it in the long run. As soon as they get here they will be going on and I will take pictures.
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01:14 PM
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
I will be watching closely. I really, really, really want to get the rail off the top of my blower, but I refuse to pay the high prices for some of the logs out there. This is the best option that money can buy that I've seen to date.
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02:30 PM
ignorant prodigy Member
Posts: 621 From: taunton, ma, usa Registered: Mar 2006
Havent got them yet and from reading on CGP, it might be a few weeks. They changed the design so there was a delay in having them ready to ship. Plus no one is returning there fuel rails for cores so they are having to hunt down rails to modify. From reading, it looks like these will only work with ICed motors so if your not ICed, this means 2 things. Either they are not going to work for you or you need to buy an IC so they will work. I will check them on both my cars, since one is ICed and the other is not to see what the fitments like. I haev a extra set of rails laying around and going to see what it would take to modify them using compression AN fitting. Will update the Thread with pictures once they are here.
Still waiting on the rails so no real update on them yet but hopefully soon. Looks like ZZP is making there own version of there reworked rails that are supposed to be better than the ones the W-body Store have come out with. I E-mailed ZZP about them to see if I could get some more information about them for when they come out. I let them know there is alot of interest in the the rails in the Fiero world and that it would be nice if they could make some that would accomadate them fitting the Fiero setup like they are going to do for the GP. Of course I doudt my E_mail will make a differance but I figured it wouldnt hurt. Will see if I get a reply back from them and then give an update.
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10:03 AM
topcat Member
Posts: 5486 From: Charleston SC Registered: Dec 2001
Sounds good. I went junk yarding today and hoped to find a set of rails... but I was not that lucky. If I do find a set to fart around with,I might try my hand at it. We just had a new u-pull-it yard open here, and ther prices are really low. They list all fuel rails for 12.99
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12:19 PM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
Just ordered me some today I will send in my extra pair monday, I might fool around with the ones that are coming off the car. Thanks to Mustangsbeware, I was able to get my intercooler setup for very cheap, as well.
Looking at the pic, Let's hope this FPR doesn't hit our decklids
[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 10-22-2006).]
Just ordered me some today I will send in my extra pair monday, I might fool around with the ones that are coming off the car. Thanks to Mustangsbeware, I was able to get my intercooler setup for very cheap, as well.
Wish you would have held off on ordering them for a bit till the ZZP set comes out. I got an E-mail back from Zoomer today about them and am waiting on pictures of what the ZZP rails will look like. Not forsure if the ZZP rails will be any better but from there track record, they more than likely will be. Nothing wrong with the W-body store rails besides the fact they have to be used with an IC and they put the FPR in the front of our setups. Will see how the 2 rails compare and go from there.
With such a huge market, I don't see why some of the big name companies don't just start producing these things? Mustangs, camaros, etc all ahve $200 fuel rail sets everywhere you turn. Yet here are our vendors constantly sold out and back ordered with enough demand to keep this cycle going on for a quite a while, and at $400 per set to boot.
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04:03 AM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
Wish you would have held off on ordering them for a bit till the ZZP set comes out. I got an E-mail back from Zoomer today about them and am waiting on pictures of what the ZZP rails will look like. Not forsure if the ZZP rails will be any better but from there track record, they more than likely will be. Nothing wrong with the W-body store rails besides the fact they have to be used with an IC and they put the FPR in the front of our setups. Will see how the 2 rails compare and go from there.
DOH! everytime I buy something another vendor comes out with something better LOL. The way the Wbody rails run is on the right side to where my fuel setup runs on my fiero, I wish they located this FPR in the stock location tho Here is a pic of how my fuel lines run, For some reason when this car had the 4cyl the fuel filter sat in this location as well.
I hate this location and hoply I will beable to eliminate alot of the unsightly hoses with the new fuel rail setup.
[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 10-22-2006).]
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11:14 AM
Matthew_Fiero Member
Posts: 2790 From: Winnipeg,Manitoba,Canada Registered: Aug 2001
If that price is the complete setup with all the miscellaneous fittings then it is a good deal. The $200 kits you speak of for Mustangs and Camaros are not complete, they're just the rails. The complete high-flow kits for mustangs are usually $500+. I'm talking about the nice kits that you actually see on high end setups. You get what you pay for. $565 for an aeromotive kit on summit for a mustang, I didn't even see fuel rails for a 3800SC on summit.
Does anyone have any info on building fuel rail setups? Perferably for fieros?
Where are places where one can purchace fuel rail stock?
Matthew
You can buy fuel rail stock off E-bay for next to nothing in long sections. The big part is having the correct bit to drill the injector holes and get them at the correct angle. A local member did his own fuel rails using fuel rail stock and they turned out nice. I think he has about $250 in his rails after all said and done.
I read a little more about the fuel rails, And heard there still making them, Lucky for me I have 2 sets of L67 fuel rails I have no address of the Wbody store and they don't have a address posted, This might be a reason why there not getting many cores in. Im going to modify one of my rails to use till My made rails get here. I should start collecting L 67 fuel rails There pretty easy to get ahold of.
I sent Zoomer an E-mail with the above picture to see if they could make duplicate the rails so they would suit or needs. Got a fast reponce but want what I wanted to hear. Here is what his responce was:
That appears to be quite a bit of work for a fuel rail solution. I'm not sure we would want to tackle that and be at a pricepoint that would make them attractive compared to our billet rails.
Zooomer Owner ZZPerformance.com
I reposnded back with I understand what your saying but then tried to make another point. Said that even with the extra work invovled in making them, they would even sell if the price was around $200 a set. This would still be cheaper than there billet rails that run close to $400 a set. Not forsure if maybe the reason would be more ppl would buy the re-worked set being they look good instead of there billet rails. If I get a responce back from him today, I am going to continue on pushing the idea until I get a flat out NO. In the mean time I am going to send the W-Bodt Store a E-mail with a picture of the rails and see it I can get anything out of them.
[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 10-23-2006).]
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09:57 AM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Got a few E-mails from Zoomer on there rails and they look to be the same as the W-body store. Not really much differance in them as far as looks or the way they fit. So the only advantage to getting them when they come out is if they are cheaper. There rails will only work on ICed motors so non-ICed motors are still out of luck. Going to send the picture of the rails above to the W-body Store to see if I can get them to make them for a decent price.
Nothing really to update on as of yet. I got an E-mail off to Mike at the W-Body Store and got about the same reply as I did from ZZP. I sent a reply back nut havent heard anything else from him. So looks like we are stuck with the style rail they are making and will just have to see if we can make them work. Still waiting on the one I ordered on the 8th, hopfully it will be here before long.
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01:13 PM
Oct 27th, 2006
3.8 SC Member
Posts: 577 From: On the Great Lakes-Ohio Registered: Dec 2003
I was thinking of starting a new thread, but MstangsBware gave me permission to jump in here and show you guys, how I made the fuel rail that is pictured here and on other websites. First off, I want to give credit, where credit is due. This fuel rail is Skitimes design. I studied his photos and asked a few guys, at work, how to braze and then I went from there. If you do this project, YOU WILL DO IT AT YOUR OWN RISK !!!! I will not be held liable!!!
If you are still with me, then lets start.
First a list of tools. Not all of the tools are shown.
Tubing cutter Tubing bender Air gauge with fitting, that will fit on the bleeder valve of the fuel rail Air connection hose with shutoff valve Two reamers 7/ 16 and 3/8 Hand drill used for the reamers Hack saw A pick Channel locks Needle nose pliers or a shrader valve removal tool Map gas Brazing rod A spray bottle with soapy water A file to clean up the burrs A swage kit
And the most important, the fixture My fixture is made from 7/16" steel plate with mounting bolts welded to it. Yes it might be overkill, but the fuel rail can not move, at all, during the conversion.
The extra parts needed - Brake line 5/16" and 3/8" Just get the longest line, that you can find. You might need it if you have never bent any lines before. Fuel line repair kit - Napa carries this and Advance Auto has it as well. You will not need the compression fitting, that comes with the kit.
I will not tell you how to remove the fuel rail. I will assume you already know that, since you are in this thread talking about it. Taking the fuel rail and using your pick, remove all of the O-rings. Look carefully inside the injector sockets. They like to hide in there. Remove the snap ring from the regulator. Using your channel locks with a rag, gentle wiggle and pull the regulator from it's housing.
Next, grab you needle nose pliers or shader valve removal tool and remove the valve from the injector rail. This is everything that should be removed from the fuel rail.
Now, mount the fuel rail to your fixture and tighten the nuts, good and tight. you do not the fuel rail moving. Note - When GM made the fuel rail, one hole is smaller than the others. (Look at the upper, right hand corner of the fixture photo) One bolt on your fixture needs to be smaller as well. I don't why GM did that, they just did.
Grab your hack saw and start cutting off the elbows. With a good blade, the rail will cut real easy.
Cut where the black lines indicate. Set aside, you will be needing this later.
Now the rest of the tubing is cut from the two main fuel rails.
Be careful, that you do not cut through the main fuel rails. If you do, the rail is scrap. This all that should be left.
Clean up any bits of tubing and burrs left behind, on the rails. Now, comes the first part to be put on. Take one of the elbows that was cut off and chuck it in a vise. With the reamers and your hand drill. Open the holes in the elbow. Be careful that you do not sway the drill from one side, to the other. All connections must be a snug fit. Add a little oil to the reamers and do not operate the drill to fast. Clean and deburr and set the elbow aside. Now, look down the ends of the main fuel rails. You will see little bumps inside the rails, where the injectors are seated. Open the end of the main rails with the 7/16" reamer. But, do not hit the injector connections inside the main rails! Clean and deburr.
In the parts list, I forgot to tell you, that you will need a small amount of 7/16" OD tubing. Cut a 5/8" long peice of this tubing . deburr it. And press it into the elbow.
Now, press the other end into the main rail.
If you look in the fixture photos, you will see where the elbow is pressed in. (The upper right hand side)
Coming up next! I will show you, how to reattach the regulator and Make the cross-over tube.
Comments and ideas for improvements are welcome! I am getting tired. So I will chat with you, tomorrow.
Thank you for showing everyone how to put the rails together and make them. I have always wanted to try it but have never really known where to start. With your build up, I will start a set tomorrow and see how they turn out. Once again thanks for your input.
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12:22 AM
3.8 SC Member
Posts: 577 From: On the Great Lakes-Ohio Registered: Dec 2003
Take the 3/8" brake line and your tubing cutter and cut as close to one end of the line as you can. Remove the fittings from the line. You will not need them. Clean and deburr the end.
Now, you will need the swage kit. Set the the swage up for 3/8" and insert the brake line until 1/2" is sticking through the other side. Then tighten the jaw set. Lube up the flare adaptor. Then crank the adaptor into the brake line with the rachet.
Remove the brake line from the swage tool. This should be the end result.
Cut the newly flared end off with the tubing cutter. Clean and deburr.
Now, insert the flared peice into the main fuel rail.
If the flared peice does not go into the main fuel line. Sand the OD of the flare peice, until it is a press fit. Remember all connections need to be a snug fit! This peice is in the fixture photo. (upper left hand side)
Grab the regulator housing. Clean and remove all unwanted material.
The hole in the square part of the regulator will need reamed out with the 3/8" reamer.
Now, press that on to the flared part that you made earlier.
Grab the 3/8" brake line and make a flare in the end of it. Just like before. Now make a 90* bend in the tube with tubing bender.
This is what you should have so far. The tape measure is there, to show you, how far to make the bend, from the flare. The next bend will be at a 45* angle and is perpendular to the first bend.
And the next bend is at a 45* angle and it is the bottom of the cross over tube.
Repeat the bends for the other side and stop. Do not cut the extra off yet. Set it aside.
On the main rail ( lower right hand side of fixture photo) a 7/16 by 3/4 " coupling needs to be pressed in
After the coupling is inserted, it will need to be ream out with the 3/8" reamer
Now, you can cut the cross over tubing and press it into the main fuel rails This is what it should look like when you are done.
Notice that one side of the cross over is longer than the other. This is do to the injectors, not seated directly across from one and another. Making the short side of the cross over longer, cleans up the look of the fuel rail, as a whole.
Stay tuned!
Two more parts to make and then it can be brazed, tested, sand blasted, and painted. Just remember - everything needs to clean and deburred. I can't stress that enough!
I just added this to my favortes, and gave you a +. Thanks for the pointers. I had a few ideas on "how to", but this clarified it and answered a lot of my questions.
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07:37 PM
Oct 29th, 2006
Rare87GT Member
Posts: 5046 From: Wichita, KS USA Registered: Oct 2001
So I ordered the PRJ Fuel rails today. The red anodized ones. Do you guys know how/or what fittings I need to hook up to the stock Fiero fuel lines? Just thought I'd ask for the guys that have bought the custom ones. Also, I have the mirror glass in the decklid, do those clear when you have the Intercooler installed? I know I have to shave the side of the trunk to make the nose drive clear, but I wasn't sure if I'd have to remove the mirror glass as well.
Thanks! Amir
BTW, the car should be going by next week finally. Wooohoo!!
------------------ 1 of 2: Graphite Grey Pearl 87 GT 5 spd: 2.8L (Best 1/4 mile: 15.57@87mph, 2.0 60ft) 2 of 2: Ferrari Red 88 Formula/4T65EHD: 97 GTP Motor (Best 1/4 mile: 12.75@106mph, 1.77 60ft)
This last part of the fabrication gets a little contraversal. In this part, I will show you how to route the two lines, supply and return. These are the lines that will connect to the Fiero's flex lines. The part that has been talked about, is where you want the two connections to be. Some like it to be, between the valve cover and the cast iron pulley bracket, others like to have the lines right down the back of the bracket, where the coil pack used to sit. Me personally, I like to get the connections, as far away from the exhaust as possible and make new flex lines to the gas tank. But that is just me, being to safe. It's totally up to you, where you want them. I will say this, using the stock Fiero flex lines, Makes it a bit of a challenge, when making the connections. Because, you are between the firewall and the engine.
O.K. enough jibber, jabber. Let's get started.! I will start with the supply line first. Using the 3/8" line, lay it next to the fuel rail, that has the elbow, like this.
You want the 3/8" tubing to be passed the elbow, while you make some marks of the bends that will be going around the shader valve. Don't be to close to the valve. Give yourself some room to attach a pressure gauge here. After, you make the three bends, around the valve, trim the end of the tubing, that goes into the elbow to length. When trimming the tubing to length, try to keep the bends centered around the valve. When you are finished it will look like this with the tubing inside the elbow and the bends centered around the valve.
For now, you are finished with the supply line. Pull it out of the elbow and set it aside. Don't worry! We will get back to it.
Now, the return line. Taking the 5/16 tubing, cut the end off, remove the connectors, and make a flare in the end that was just cut off. Clean and debur! Now, you will want to make two gentle bends, after the flare. This will sit the 5/16" tubing on top of the main fuel rail.
While the 5/16" tubing is in place, sitting on the main fuel rail. Mark it for the next bend. This bend is important. It must follow the cross over tube and stay, straight up and down, so it will fit in the regulator.
After that bend, mark the tubing, for one more bend, to keep it following the cross over tube. Now stop! You are done with return line for now. Set it aside.
This next step is going to get fun!! Everywhere a joint is made, you will have to clean it like you have never cleaned before. I use some sandpaper and a file, to clean and rough up the joints. After that I clean the joints with acetone. After you think you have everything clean, start brazing. You will want both ends of the joints red hot. The tubing should be glowing a dark red. But, not so hot that it will melt a hole in the work that you just did. Now, put the brazing rod into the flame and joint. When the brazing rod melts, you will see it fill the joint like solder does, on an electrical connection. You will want to practice on some scrap peices of tubing, before you start on the fuel rail. Remember, if the joints are not clean, the brazing will not take. DO NOT braze the supply and return lines to the fuel rail at this time. We still have some bending to do.
O.K. Is the rail cooled off yet? Good! Now remove the rail from the fixture and take it over to the engine and mount it to the intake. Just like it was before, you started the conversion. Now, put the supply line on the main rail and decide on how you would like it, to make it's way, to the flex hose. Do the same for the return line. When you get the tubing to where you want it, remember, you still need to add the fuel line repair kits, to the end of these tubings. You will use the swage tool, two more times. One for 3/8" and one for 5/16" Make a reference, on the two joints, to show how the two parts go together. When you have finished making your bends and reference marks, take the fuel rail off the engine and mount it back on the fixture for final assemble. Finish brazing the supply and return lines to the fuel rail and braze the two repair kit, parts to the other end of the supply and return lines. As a bonus, I braze any area, where two tubes come in contact with each other. No vibration noise and it stiffens up the rail. Making it stronger.
Bump to the top so this doesnt get to far down the line. I still havent got the W-body Store rails and they are still on backorder. Since Don has added to this Thread on how to build the rails, I asked for a refund on the rails from the W-body Store. Between the build Thread and the fact the rails cant be flipped and only work on IC motors, makes getting the rails almosy useless. I was going to try to make them work but if i would have messed them up, that would be money down the drain.
.JPG)
