Well, just hope this doesn't end up in the trash, but it probably will. (Sorry for the length too)

Over the last little while, I've noticed a tension between the V8 guys and the V6 guys. This may not be something new, but I just became aware of it lately. Now, I just want to say that not everyone from both groups is involved in this ~tension~, so please don't think I'm stereotyping either group. From where I stand, it would ~seem~ that the V6 crowd (again, not stereotyping) think the V8 guys (again, not stereotyping) don't respect them. From this, it ~seems~ as though the V6 crowd now has to prove something to the V8 crowd to get the respect they feel they deserve.

Now you're probably wondering where I'm going with this.. Well, I'm curious as to why the V6 guys need to put down the V8 guys.. Yes, I know I'm only focusing on one side of the ~tension~, but that is because I want to understand what they're trying to say.

Is it:

A) My V6 Fiero is fast and driven daily.
- Great! I love to see Fieros that go like stink.

B) My V6 Fiero times are faster than ~most publicized~ V8 Fiero times.
- As I said before, great to see a Fiero go fast, but we can all come to that conclusion without the owner flaunting it and pushing it on us like a vacuum cleaner sales-person.

C) My daily driven V6 Fiero is faster than any naturally aspirated, V8 powered, daily driven Fiero ~could~ be.
- This would be my problem and is ultimatly where I'm going with this IF someone thinks this way.. It does NOT take a rocket scientist to make a ~450hp/~500flb, 9.0:1, mild hydraulic cam'd, drivable 400 sbc engine, period. I can give you two dyno proven reciepies if you wish.

People may argue the cost of the SBC, but in reality, it wouldn't cost more than 5k ~Canadian~ to build either motor.. It would be considerably less if you opted for no balancing, blueprinting and no forged pistons, but that's besides the point. If it does cost more(than an equally powered V6), it's not by much and it's still N/A and can ~theoretically~ go further than the V6 in the long run. (for much less I might add).

What about the ability of the drivetrain to handle the SBC that produces it's peak torque at around 3K rpm? Who cares really, the V6 guys will have to worry about the same issue so this REALLY isn't a valid argument.

Well, the V8 weighs more. Yep, it sure does, but with aluminum heads, intake and water pump, it's not enough to really make an impact.

But I still get good gas mileage. The odds are, that yes, you will get better gas mileage, but is that in street trim or strip trim? I really can't argue this yet because I don't know what the V6 setup is, but if they have to change the supercharger pulley and add airplane fuel, then fuel economy is a moot point. The sbc can make its' power numbers on the lowest octain regular unleaded fuel you can buy..

As you can probably tell, I'm a V8 guy at heart. This does not mean that I don't respect the V6 guys, the only people I don't respect are ricers and ignorant know-nothings. I love the 3800sc and it's outstanding what some have done with it, but I don't feel that it is a better choice for a ~balls-to-the-wall-performance~ motor, that's all.

Wow, that was a lot of rambling.. Hopefully someone will be able to make sence of it.

Cheers,

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Andrew MacPherson
86 2M6 - Stock
82 Z28 - Mod'd to the nuts
86 Firebrid - Beater

I guess I've never seen the tension you speak about. The race competative types are just being competative and talking up their cars. This talk has going on from days of horse racing: my horse can beat your horse. No different from my mustang can beat your Fiero. My V8 Fiero can beat your 2m4 Fiero. If thats is all you have to show for your life, that is your problem.

It's all just some good ol' fashioned male chest thumping. Some of it started out as good natured "ribbing", but it might of gotten carried away. I think a few folks took this a little too personally.

I have a V8 Fiero and I don't care that some V6 owners are faster or quicker. They worked hard to get to that point and I've been lazy. They deserve some respect and I can't blame them for bragging a bit for their accomplishments.

John Stricker said it best. There will always be a little sibling rivalry. But let a "ricer" or a Mustang show up bashing any Fiero and we will forget our petty differences and stand together against the punks.

I admire all fast Fieros. I don't care if it has a souped up Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine, if it's fast, it's cool. Personally, I wouldn't worry too much about the macho posturing. It's just all part of the hotrod scene that dates back decades.

I have gotten a good laugh at some of the incredibly long threads that have been posted not specifically about this rivalry but turning into such. I hope I'm laughing with them and not at them! I've decided that if I ever get my 86SE to the point where it is my daily driver then my 88 base coupe, which was slotted eventually for a major V6 or V8 upgrade, will remain a 4cyl. Might start scrounging next summer for SD parts. Someone needs to represent the 4 cyl side of the issue (LOL). Cars can be a very personal representation of their owners, I try not to put down any individuals right to represent themselves in anyway they see fit (OSLO). Lets have fun, we all have one thing in common, FIERO!

I dont see much of the "tension" either, but I just got a plain old 3.1.....
but I can see how there might be some rivalry between the 3800SC and the SBC guys. They are kinda close in HP, but the 3800SC is near to the end of its HP limit, and the SBC is just getting started. I'm quite sure a 5700SC would be quite motor. Probably jump right out from behind you!

Quote: The race competative types are just being competative and talking up their cars.

Yea, maybe you guys are right. Maybe it is all in good fun and I'm just taking it too seriously... or am I?

quote .......I try not to put down any individuals right to represent themselves in anyway they see fit......[/B]

..This says it all.
....
If some V8 owners feel threatened, they lose all respect and go on the attack for what anyone else says or did to their car..

Contrary to popular belief the SBC is not the ultimate Fiero swap..it has it's place.. but the Northstar is.. ( at this time can you say twin turbo northstar?? ( Cadillac is talking about it right now )..450 HP out of a stock motor for the street.. I know that a street legal SBC cannot duplicate that..( and don't forget the weight issues..)

Low ET's cost money ..just where does that fit in with a personal plan for a car, and what engine is the best for what you want to achieve.... 4 ..6..8..turbo...SC
......
I am tired of SBC people who thump their chests and never post timeslips..
I am tired of SBC people who discount the weight issue and provide fuzzy math to excuse their false statements..
I am tired of SBC people putting in low HP SBC's and saying that they are faster than a 3800sc.
I am tired of SBC people putting in high HP SBC's and forgetting about smog laws that they should be following..
I am tired of SBC people confusing a SBC with it's cousin the LT1/6 ..(Edited here..should read LS1).. which is a totally different engine..
I am tired of anyone who confuses a street driven car with a strip only driven one. ( and if it cannot legally pass a smog inspection then it IS off road only.)

...........
I am 49 years old..
I am a sbc fan..always was always will be
I have respect for the acomplishments of this forum's members
I have no respect for the ones who try to bully their way through this forum
I am SanBerdue Fiero and not someone else
I drive a Fiero every day
......
I have a life outside of Fiero's. it just so happens that this is my hobby and I enjoy it ..(with or without this forum..)
My biggest beef is the 'rating system' Some of you kicked 'shaun 41178' off the forum and he has contributed more than most ..( including the ongoing developement of an intake manifold for the 3.4. It was our loss not his...)

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-01-2002).]

it's an internet forum.. how can you take anything on here to serious..

look at my screen-name.. if i were to introduced myself to you in a face to face meeting with that name you'd laugh and fall over. it's all just a jestuous pseudo-sibling rivalry. All in good fun!

-but V6s are better, and yes Nitrous DOES fix everythiing!-
-lol-

and automatics are for women and the handicapped...

oh wait.. i have an automatic...

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I have 2 coins that add to 30 cents and one of them is not a nickle. what are the 2 coins I have?

1FST2M6, I have the answer to the question in your sig.

"I have 2 coins that add to 30 cents and one of them is not a nickle. what are the 2 coins I have?"

simple, you have 2 canadian quarters!

------------------

1988GT T-Tops, 5spd, Loaded

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: 1FST2M6, I have the answer to the question in your sig. "I have 2 coins that add to 30 cents and one of them is not a nickle. what are the 2 coins I have?" simple, you have 2 canadian quarters!

...come on... the exchange rate is not all that.. And the answer is simple..the other one is a nickel.. and the 2nd coin is a quarter...

seems to me the 4-bangers get most of the flak. Now I got everything, lol. I got a V6, got a turbo, working on my V8 and have an automatic and a stick. And if all fails i still got a POS C4 (but it looks good). Im not handicaped or an old lady (wheres an axe?) but for just cruising in town, nothing better than an automatic IMO. I think NOS is for ricers who dont know how to do any engine work myself. Its like taking a shotgun to go target shooting. And on 4 cyls, Ive had a few turbo 4s (OEM) that scooted pretty good.

ROFL @ Jelly...

Hrm, I think I over looked one ~very~ important factor in my initial ramblings.. I forgot most of you have to obey the smog laws. I'm fortunate enough to live in a city where they don't even care if you have a catalytic converters. That definatly mucks things up a bit and plays a huge roll in what engine to swap in...

Roger: You're right, NOS is for ricers, now a N.O.S. brand nitrous kit on the other hand .

SanBerdueFiero, if you're so tired, maybe you should take a nap. What in the world are you talking about? A street legal SBC cannot duplicate a 450 HP Northstar? Not only can a normally aspirated SBC duplicate it, but it'll also have more torque too because of it's larger displacement. My 1988 Z-28 roller 350 motor I'm building will have aluminum heads, aluminum intake, tube headers, etc., so the weight difference is not going to be that much more than a V6 (especially since I've already moved the battery up front). Not sure if the new engine will be quite 450 HP, but it'll probably be close and yes it'll be street legal. Not everyone lives in California. My current worn-out, oil-burning carburated 350 passes all the smog laws here in Kansas right now.

This is why the debates seem get out of hand. People always knocking someone else's car or engine. Especially when they don't even have all the facts straight. Feel free to install that 450 HP Northstar that will pass all the smog laws into your Fiero and prove me wrong. Oh yeah, that's right, Cadillac is only "talking" about it. I forgot it don't really exist, not to mention that it'll cost a fortune even if it did. By the way, I liked Shaun. I never gave him a bad rating. He was one of the "old timers" that had been in the forum since 1999. It's a shame the forum can't be more like it used to be back in the good ol' days.

Boy do I want to bite on SBF's trollbait, but I see it for what it is. I'll say this though, if you're 49 years old and think that a twin-turbo Northstar at 450hp which isn't even in production yet is a be-all-end-all versus anything that John Lingenfelter produces, please return to the rock out from under which you crawled to spew your verbal diarrhea and do some more research before you come back. Northstars may be made of aluminum, but that's to compensate for those two enormous heads and complex 32-valve valvetrain. They wouldn't even exist anymore if not for Cadillac still believing that its customers will only accept four-valve technology in their engines--the LS family has proven that the power, efficiency, smoothness, simplicity, and flexibility across a broad range of vehicles is entirely possible in a two-valve head--and is still acceptable to customers paying over $50k.

Ya know that 9-second/170mph LS1 '00 C5 that Big John built? The street-legal, street-driven one that's currently the fastest C5 on the road? Know whose it is?

Big John is a daddy too. It is his daughter's daily driver.

John still does work on LT1s and will work his magic on them for you to bring them to an easy and totally streetable 450hp NA for a price, but this formula is so well-known by now that just about anyone can do it. LT1s have been around for over a decade.

Andy, your comments are insightful and well taken. As an f-body guy yourself, nobody needs to lecture you on a V8's merits in any car, much less in a Fiero. Most people who have contentions with a V8 swap in a Fiero just haven't ever driven one, much less had a V8 in any car. Once you've had one you get it, and realize that you don't want anything less. It's been that way for half a century in this country, and as long as there's still a Corvette and a Mustang to keep the engineering development current in both camps, it will continue to be.

Dave

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- Electron Blue '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 1): Before After ZZ430 Ram-Port FI--Wanna Race? Follow it here on the Forum!
- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- '98 6-speed Corvette Coupe, '87 Coupe SOLD!

[This message has been edited by crazyd (edited 11-01-2002).]

I reckon poor ol' Mac will be starting another thread soon wondering why all the Chevy small block V8 folks are fighting with all the Northstar V8 folks... lol.

Thanks Dave, I appreciate your comments.

batboy - shush.. Don't give them any more ideas..

I like the Northstar but twin turbos with only 450? that sucks, plus good luck trying to fit even 1 turbo with a northstar in the engine bay. Northstar, have to floor it to feel power, SBC have to breath near the peddle to feel the power. (exaturated)

The LS1 and LS6 IS a small block chevy, dunno what else it would be, 8 cylinders, cam in block, 2 valves per cylinder, its a modern SBC...engines arent allowed to modernize without being something completely different?

You hate people nockin o 6's i hate people nockin on 8's. The thing is, V-8s will never go out, there here forever. you dont see pro dragsters that are running low 4's in the 1/4 with 6's or 4's

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--Adam--
1987 Blue GT 5-speed
IM AOL: GTFiero
Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs

remember, Drive it like you stole it...nice and slow so you dont get your @$$ caught by the caps

I just like smaller engines. I have seen some pretty awesome 4 and 6 cyl engines. They impress me more than a V8. Thats just what I find interesting. It takes more work to get a lot of HP out of a 4 or a 6, and that just makes it more fun.

------------------
James Essar
88 Coupe 3.2L V6 With NX Nitrous
Putting V8 Fieros in their place: My rearview mirror

quote Originally posted by batboy: [B].....What in the world are you talking about? A street legal SBC cannot duplicate a 450 HP Northstar? ....Exactly that..you ( in my example) cannot use anything that the Feds say that is for off road only.. "Not only can a normally aspirated SBC duplicate it, but it'll also have more torque too because of it's larger displacement." ......and the northstar will rev to 8,000 rpm..your torque will only destroy the transaxle. "My 1988 Z-28 roller 350 motor I'm building will have aluminum heads, aluminum intake, tube headers, etc., so the weight difference is not going to be that much more than a V6" ..and this combo you are talking about weighs 500+ pounds, an all cast iron SBC weighs 575 lbs.. "Not sure if the new engine will be quite 450 HP, but it'll probably be close and yes it'll be street legal. Not everyone lives in California. My current worn-out, oil-burning carburated 350 passes all the smog laws here in Kansas right now." .... I will stick with Federal laws in my example..not what your state ( or country) let's you get by with... If you violate Federal law...it is still not street legal... ".. Feel free to install that 450 HP Northstar that will pass all the smog laws into your Fiero and prove me wrong." That is just it..if and when it is made..it will pass Calif smog rules to swap it into a Fiero.. Your engine won't.. "Oh yeah, that's right, Cadillac is only "talking" about it. I forgot it don't really exist, not to mention that it'll cost a fortune even if it did." ... and 5 years ago LS1's were just in the talking stages...LS1's also cost a fortune too.. ( recent Ebay sale -$5000 dollars for a good one..and then add the cost of all the necessary parts to swap it into a Fiero.. They (LS1's) are made of aluminum alloy and are not a SBC... The LS1's also add only about 125 lbs over a 3.8 swap. you do the math..just how much does a 3.8 weigh vs a 2.8...? B]

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 11-01-2002).]

I have seen the tension... I have stayed out of it, but I have seen it LOL. I like the V6's and I am impressed with their results. But it would be nice if they could just post their accomplishment without feeling the need to bash others.

I can agree with Dave that the LS family is really not a SBC. The only parts that are interchable are the roller lifters from an LT1... that is it. They have the same 4" bore, but have a shorter stroke. Oddly enough it they are only a 346 cu." Not a 350 cu.". when it comes down to it. The LS family probably shares more with the northstar than older SBC's. Some of its finer points are an aluminum block, composite intake (that is dry). Six bolt mains. Powdered metal rods, and sequential fuel injection to name a few. Just the fact that archies SBC kit doesn't work with it should be a big clue.

I am a big fan of the north star. I have said it before if I was going to do another type of swap it would be the north star. And the reasoning would have nothing to do with performance. When it comes down to it there is no substitution for Cu. Inches. ( Ask any woman LOL ) if I was planing to drag race my car I also wouldn't have the get rag either, but it is what I have the most fun driving. For that matter if I was building a drag car it wouldn't be a Fiero. When it comes down to it high 11's are not that impressive for a street car. There are allot of F and Y bodies that would laugh at us all for bragging about that. Unfortunately there are some four cylinder ricers that would too .

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LS1 in and running :)

http://ls1swap.tripod.com/

I don't understand why this V6 vs. V8 thing has to be an either/or thing - do both!

Hartz

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'84 SC 5.7L V8
'85 SE 3.1L V6 Turbo
Hartz's Toys

The whole thing seems a little immature to me.

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[This message has been edited by 88formula (edited 11-01-2002).]

I really don't think there's as much tension as you indicate. Mostly, there are reaction on both parts as to the negative comments about each other's motor choice... Not BAD comments, just personal ovservations.

The V8 guys talk about the 3.4L TDC and DOHC motors having "no torque" while the 3.4L TDC and DOHC guys talk about how the V8s have to much unusable torqu and HP.

What you have are people looking for different things out of their cars and assuming that everyone else wants the same things THEY do... Just not the case.

BOTH motors are totally capable of delivering mind splitting performance and many smiles per miles... They're just different.

Personally, I love my 3.4L TDC and think, for my own reasons, that the 3.4L TDC is the RIGHT motor for a Fiero and the V8 is just to BIG. I love the sound of the 3.4L TDC and the super high revs. It'll rip my head off at the line and that's great too. Running through the twisty bits is a real addrenaline rush and the power is completely under control and on demand.

I don't know if that's true with a V8 or not... I've never driven one in a Fiero, so I can't say.

What I can say is, I love mine and would not consider a V8 swap for anything other than a Drag Car. Which I'm not into. So be it.

That is just my difference of opinion.

DKOV -

Any car that is put together with the patience,inovation and desire for perfection in the owners eyes,deserves to be appreciated for what it is.Regardless of whether or not it is the way someone else would do it.
I have an 88GT that I use whenever I can.I even move my 87 GN out of the way to use it.It has a 3800SC and is very fast(but not as fast as the GN).I am in the process of getting a turbocharged 350 with lingenfelter injection ready to go in another Fiero.I'm sure the V8 is going to be much faster,but that doesn't mean anything other than it is faster.
Bottom line is I won't critize someone else's work because I wouldn't have done it that way.

------------------
#1112
Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!

quote Originally posted by GTFiero1: I like the Northstar but twin turbos with only 450? that sucks, plus good luck trying to fit even 1 turbo with a northstar in the engine bay. Northstar, have to floor it to feel power, SBC have to breath near the peddle to feel the power. (exaturated) The LS1 and LS6 IS a small block chevy, dunno what else it would be, 8 cylinders, cam in block, 2 valves per cylinder, its a modern SBC...engines arent allowed to modernize without being something completely different? You hate people nockin o 6's i hate people nockin on 8's. The thing is, V-8s will never go out, there here forever. you dont see pro dragsters that are running low 4's in the 1/4 with 6's or 4's

Have you driven both SBC and Northstar Fieros? You're welcome to come down to Florida to drive my Northstar. It accelerates from 35 in 5th easily enough.

The LS1/6 are NOT small block Chevy engines. No parts interchange. The LS1/6 engines do not have 4 inch bores. The have something like 96mm, which is about 3.779. For some reason small bore, long stroke engines are easier to get to pass emissions than big bore short stroke engines.

There's a new drag team out using a 4 cylinder in an Integra funny car.
It displaces 4 or five litres and is good for 4-5 thousand horsepower. It's very high tech. It does it's burnout and staging on alchohol, then switches to Nitro for the actual run. And it's fuel injected and turbocharged.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Contrary to popular belief the SBC is not the ultimate Fiero swap..it has it's place.. but the Northstar is..

Right. And Yellow is the ultimate color. Hey, idiot, there's no such thing as a "right" or "wrong" answer in matters of opinion. Some people prefer V6's, others V8's. Neither person is wrong. But YOU would have us believe if we don't agree with you, we're all wrong. That doesn't sound like a 47 year old. It sounds like a 17 year old who hasn't dried out behind is soaking wet ears. Get a clue.

quote ( at this time can you say twin turbo northstar?? ( Cadillac is talking about it right now )..450 HP out of a stock motor for the street.. I know that a street legal SBC cannot duplicate that..( and don't forget the weight issues..)

The engine doesn't even exist yet, but it's the ultimate? Ok, if you want to talk about the Northstar that EXISTS, that's one thing, but talking about an engine that's not even available yet, if ever, is pointless.

quote I am tired of SBC people who discount the weight issue and provide fuzzy math to excuse their false statements..

What was fuzzy about the weight slips that Archie posted? A 4 cylinder to Iron Head SBC conversion gained 160lbs. Nothing fuzzy about that, unless you were drunk when you read it. Show me someone who's done a before and after weight comparison with a 3800SC converstion. Please! I'd really like to know what the difference is. Don't forget to weigh the entire car. If you swap trannys, too, that has to be taken into account as well. A 4T6x series transmission weighs much more than a T125 or M282 Getrag.

quote I am tired of SBC people putting in high HP SBC's and forgetting about smog laws that they should be following..

True. If I read Cradyd's profile correctly, he's not from the People's Republic of California, so he doesn't have to pass their emissions tests. His car does have cats, if I remember correctly. It's not hard to build an engine to pass Federal Emissions standards.

quote I am 49 years old..

It doesn't show.

quote I am a sbc fan..always was always will be

It doesn't show.

quote I have respect for the acomplishments of this forum's members

It doesn't show.

quote My biggest beef is the 'rating system' Some of you kicked 'shaun 41178' off the forum and he has contributed more than most ..( including the ongoing developement of an intake manifold for the 3.4. It was our loss not his...)

Well, 1 person, 1 vote. No one person could get Shaun banned. It took a lot of people wanting him gone to do that. Democracy at work. You don't have to like it, but if you've got a beef with it, then you're beef is with Cliff, not us. Cliff implemented the rating system. We're simply using it as he designed it.

And for the love of GOD, if you want to quote people and reply to individual parts of the quote, LEARN HOW TO USE THE QUOTE TAGS!

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 11-01-2002).]

quote Originally posted by DKOV: It'll rip my head off at the line and that's great too. Running through the twisty bits is a real addrenaline rush and the power is completely under control and on demand. I don't know if that's true with a V8 or not... I've never driven one in a Fiero, so I can't say. DKOV -

yep, same with a SBC powered Fiero.

I'll never say which engine is better for a Fiero, to each their own.

I will say that I have driven several V8 Fiero's and a L67 powered fiero.

The L67 powered one was very impressive, and it's one hell of an engine swap.

But for me personally, I think I will stay with V8's.
I don't think it's ultimitely faster, I just prefer that rumbly sound and that ton of torque anytime I need it when I open the throttle, puts a smile on my face every time.

After driving a L67 powered Fiero, I though I could be happy with one. Then I got back in the V8.

Edited to remove my sig, already posted it once in this tread

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 11-01-2002).]

You know, I've kinda seen it too but try to steer away from it. Some of it is ribbing, some is pride, some of it is just plain ridiculous. Personally, I've always been a SBC fan and it started when I had a '75 Monza with a 400. My God, it had some torque and literally blew out a couple of windshields due to unibody twist (I was young and thought it was cool that it could do that).

Now, things are a bit different. I've come a long in my own personal way of thinking to try to do more, with less. It's more of a challenge to me, not because I don't like it, but rather, I'd rather do it with 2 less cylinders. It's more of an accomplishment of engineering in my own view, but not to take away from the guys that developed the V8 install. The reason I chose to do what I'm doing and have accomplished is a personal decision. There's no right or wrong answer and I surely hope people understand that and respect each other for it.

When it comes right down to it though, the only real opinion that matters to me, is my own. I'm the one that has to make those decisions, make the money to spend it on the project, bust the knuckles, and spend the countless hours on a labor of love. That's the bottom line but I am always willing to listen if there might be a better idea, but do hope that everyone just simply respects each other's decisions.

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As Alice Cooper once said...

quote Feed My.... Frankenstein!

Who's Tense???

Secondly, I think the members here should be a little more specific instead of grouping people such as V8 guys and V6 guys. I know it's a generalization, but everybodies car is different to a large degree in terms of overall performance, each with it's own dis-advantages, and advantages for each performance catagory (meaning all measures of performance the way cars are rated by publications). Cars setup for road courses perform outstanding there, but not the quickest for 1/4 mile and vice versa.

Nobodies got a bigger gun, except in their own mind. We've all (most all) modified our cars to our dreams (mine don't seem to end) of what we wanted in terms of performance, durability, appearance, affordability, etc., etc. There are too many factors for "Fastest", "Best Looking", or whatever to say that one is better than the other.

Just my opinion.

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Click to Listen!

quote Originally posted by Formula88: "What was fuzzy about the weight slips that Archie posted? A 4 cylinder to Iron Head SBC conversion gained 160lbs. Nothing fuzzy about that, unless you were drunk when you read it. Show me someone who's done a before and after weight comparison with a 3800SC converstion. Please! I'd really like to know what the difference is. Don't forget to weigh the entire car. If you swap trannys, too, that has to be taken into account as well. A 4T6x series transmission weighs much more than a T125 or M282 Getrag."

This is exactly the fuzzy math that I am talking about. go to http://www.extremebuggies.com/pitlane/00004.asp
and check out their weights of different engines.. and then talk to your buddy "Archie" who has a vested interest in keeping the weights and ET's of the SBC swap quiet.. and a cast Iron SBC is on the "old" list and it weighs 575 lbs..not 500lbs
...I really laugh at your name calling. as this IS the internet and it just rolls off.. But it does show your level of maturity. I am dealing with just facts and you have to resort to 3rd grade tatics...
Go back to what "I am tired of" and add that I am tired of people who distort what was posted and go off on tangents not related to the post..
And just what was the "total" majority vote count that cast Shaun of your Island and which tribe spoke???

I was always a big block mopar fan, scared the you no what out of me first time I blew the passenger side window in my 70' Challenger, the 440 was awsome! I thought someone had taken a shot at me. Those were wild times. I would like a SBC or N* conversion but I don't think I could keep it on the road mechanically, the fiero transaxle just wasn't meant to have 400+ horses behind it. In my older age I have learned to appreciate driving, finding my cars limits as well as my own. Oh but those were the days, I used to love to eat the new vettes with my ole primered dodge! Just as long as it was in a straight line (LOL). I hope everyone has a good laugh before they sign off, lifes to short!

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: This is exactly the fuzzy math that I am talking about. go to http://www.extremebuggies.com/pitlane/00004.asp and check out their weights of different engines.. and then talk to your buddy "Archie" who has a vested interest in keeping the weights and ET's of the SBC swap quiet.. and a cast Iron SBC is on the "old" list and it weighs 575 lbs..not 500lbs ...I really laugh at your name calling. as this IS the internet and it just rolls off.. But it does show your level of maturity. I am dealing with just facts and you have to resort to 3rd grade tatics... Go back to what "I am tired of" and add that I am tired of people who distort what was posted and go off on tangents not related to the post.. And just what was the "total" majority vote count that cast Shaun of your Island and which tribe spoke???

Your facts come from a listing of weights of various engines. It doesn't list specific engines and accessories, nor does it say if it's wet or dry weight. Archie took the simple approach. He weighed the car before the swap, then again after the swap. Total difference: 160lbs from a 2.5 4 cylinder to an Iron Head 350. Your figures don't take into account different intakes, exhaust, any 4 cylinder parts removed, and v8 parts added. Archie's before/after takes into consideration the entire weight gain of the whole vehicle, not only the change with the engine, or it's accessories.

If you call that fuzzy, then just keep on calling it fuzzy. Everyone else can tell you don't have a clue.

Where's the data in those charts from? What are the sources? Given a few minutes, I can make a chart that says a Chevy 350 weighs 10lbs and a 3800SC is 2.5 Metric Tons. That doesn't make it so, and neither does the charts you post. I am more likely to believe a certified truck scale of an actual real car, than theoretical weights on a chart that don't even list their sources.

If I've distorted the post or gone off on a tangent, well, I must apologize. I was attempting to directly address individual points you made in your post. That's why I quoted the specific words you posted for each reply I had. Forgive me for using such "dubious" source material as your own words. I should have known better.

Tangents. I use the same aluminum block Shaun does and am modifying the intake also. Instead of adding more air I am lengthening the runners. Shaun has good info that I could probably use. So I'm not too happy with his inablility to let anybody talk about four cylinder power without going ballistic on them and tearing up their threads. He offended so many innocent folks that I can't access his knowledge anymore. Oh well, life goes on.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Your facts come from a listing of weights of various engines. It doesn't list specific engines and accessories, nor does it say if it's wet or dry weight. Archie took the simple approach. He weighed the car before the swap, then again after the swap. Total difference: 160lbs from a 2.5 4 cylinder to an Iron Head 350. Your figures don't take into account different intakes, exhaust, any 4 cylinder parts removed, and v8 parts added. Archie's before/after takes into consideration the entire weight gain of the whole vehicle, not only the change with the engine, or it's accessories. If you call that fuzzy, then just keep on calling it fuzzy. Everyone else can tell you don't have a clue. Where's the data in those charts from? What are the sources? Given a few minutes, I can make a chart that says a Chevy 350 weighs 10lbs and a 3800SC is 2.5 Metric Tons. That doesn't make it so, and neither does the charts you post. I am more likely to believe a certified truck scale of an actual real car, than theoretical weights on a chart that don't even list their sources. If I've distorted the post or gone off on a tangent, well, I must apologize. I was attempting to directly address individual points you made in your post. That's why I quoted the specific words you posted for each reply I had. Forgive me for using such "dubious" source material as your own words. I should have known better.

ok...try this one... http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/rx7engineselectioninfo.html

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: I am tired of SBC people who thump their chests and never post timeslips.. I am tired of SBC people who discount the weight issue and provide fuzzy math to excuse their false statements.. I am tired of SBC people putting in low HP SBC's and saying that they are faster than a 3800sc...blah blah blah...

You have to be kidding me..! Ok Mr.Tired man better go call your self a "Wah"-bulance. This thread was sort of going rather nice and adult like till you just "had" to show up and open your trap, as Dave sort of said, truely a example of constipation of the mind and diareaha of the mouth.. please get your facts straight before you blabber.

quote Originally posted by LS1swap: When it comes down to it there is no substitution for Cu. Inches.

boost makes up for it nicely in my opinion.

Flame on!

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the world's biggest 6-cylinder prick

http://www.fieroX.com

f#@k the naysayers, cause they dont mean a thing...
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