You turn the wheel X° to the left and the control module then decides how far the shaft linked to the rack should turn?
No, the control module decides how much force to add to the shaft (steering column) to reduce the force you have to use. It's still a direct connection between the steering wheel and the rack. Edit: This might satisfy everyone if you could add a kill switch. Then you could turn it on only when you really need it, like when turning the wheel while parking the car. You'd get road feel while driving, and easy steering if you had to steer while the car was at rest.
[This message has been edited by TopNotch (edited 05-01-2011).]
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08:38 AM
RumbleB Member
Posts: 341 From: The Great Lakes! Registered: Aug 2008
I have been thinking about doing this project. In fact, I have a complete unit from a Pontiac G5. The steering unit looks for info from the body control module.That is the only thing that has keep me from installing it. I'm not sure how to simulate that info. Other than that, there are just a few wires to hook up. I was told that there is a aftermarket module on ebay, that take place of the BCM or the complete steering module itself. But, I have not been able to find it, yet.
[This message has been edited by RumbleB (edited 05-01-2011).]
No, the control module decides how much force to add to the shaft (steering column) to reduce the force you have to use. It's still a direct connection between the steering wheel and the rack. Edit: This might satisfy everyone if you could add a kill switch. Then you could turn it on only when you really need it, like when turning the wheel while parking the car. You'd get road feel while driving, and easy steering if you had to steer while the car was at rest.
Tie it to the speedo signal so it only comes on below a certain voltage.
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09:56 AM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15147 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
"The first task was to make the bracket for the power steering unit. The bracket does not carry the PS unit which is now a rigid part of the steering shaft. It only prevents unit rotating around the steering shaft. The bracket must be strong but should not put any strain on the steering shaft as it would likely result in damaged bearings of the PS unit.
It took me some planning, measuring and making several cardboard model before I fabricated the bracket. In order to anchor the bracket and PS unit, I used two of four bolts that are holding the steering wheel assembly. That provided very sturdy support. Before installing the bracket, I bead-blasted it, primed it and powder coated in black.
That concluded mechanical part of installation.
Next step was electrical installation which was straight forward as the power steering unit came with the necessary electrical harness.
In order to determine effectiveness of the power steering, I measured the effort that was needed to apply on the steering wheel with car not moving. For that purpose I used digital luggage scale which I hooked to the steering wheel and pulled until the steering wheel moved.
Without PS unit installed, I had to put 15.4 lbs effort to turn the steering wheel. With PS unit installed but not activated, it took 15.6 lbs to turn the steering wheel. This indicates that the electrical PS unit has neglectable internal resistance unlike classic hydraulic PS that virtually locks the steering wheel when the engine is off.
Finally, the big moment: Turned the key switch on, the LED light went on for about 5 seconds while the system was checking itself. The LED light switched off and I turned the steering wheel for the first time.
Wow! It was light as in a modern car. I measured the effort and it was just 4.7 lbs. The PS unit is very quiet and impossible to hear when the engine is running."
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 05-01-2011).]
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11:17 AM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15147 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
Edit: This might satisfy everyone if you could add a kill switch. Then you could turn it on only when you really need it, like when turning the wheel while parking the car. You'd get road feel while driving, and easy steering if you had to steer while the car was at rest.
I don't think that would work to well. That is unless there was a way to full disengage the unit from the steering shaft. Meaning, the electric motor and whatever is used to engage the steering shaft will increase turning effort with the unit turned off. You will have the additional drag from it and have to overcome the increased force needed to rotate the drive and electric motor when it is turned off. Think of it this way, put a stick shift car on flat even pavement. Put it in first gear. Have someone sit in it and disengage the clutch, you can push it with some effort. Now let them engage the clutch and see how far you get. The unit would do the same type of thing to steering effort unless it full disengaged when switched off, maybe not to the extent of first gear but that was just an example.
Edit:
Just read this and while it does increase steering effort like what I thought it would, it doesn't look like it increases it to much.
quote
Originally posted by fierosound:
Without PS unit installed, I had to put 15.4 lbs effort to turn the steering wheel. With PS unit installed but not activated, it took 15.6 lbs to turn the steering wheel. This indicates that the electrical PS unit has neglectable internal resistance unlike classic hydraulic PS that virtually locks the steering wheel when the engine is off.
[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 05-01-2011).]
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11:42 AM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15147 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
The steering unit looks for info from the body control module.That is the only thing that has keep me from installing it. I'm not sure how to simulate that info. Other than that, there are just a few wires to hook up. I was told that there is a aftermarket module on ebay, that take place of the BCM or the complete steering module itself. But, I have not been able to find it, yet.
Any one ever considered using an eps unit from a S2000? Considerig the size of the S2000 & Fiero, it seems like it would be a good fit... Not to mention there all over ebay for under $200 and the eps control modules are just over $100...
Any one ever considered using an eps unit from a S2000? Considerig the size of the S2000 & Fiero, it seems like it would be a good fit... Not to mention there all over ebay for under $200 and the eps control modules are just over $100...
Not familiar with where the rack is in the car. If it's on the firewall behind the front wheels, steering will be "backward". If the rack is forward of the wheels and a compatible size, the problem then becomes getting the EPS control module to work if it's tied into the engine's ECM somehow.
Would be great if someone figured out how to make it work.
I've got electric P/S on my Fiero. The rack is from a Dodge Dakota and the pump was sourced from Israel. (a vauxhall of some sort) It worked, but all the reman Dodge racks either leaked or had a huge amount of play in them, so I just left the leaking power rack on the car and have not used the power assist in a couple of years. There is a thread around here somewhere about it.
Originally posted by engine man: I just don't get it why not use regular power steering with the mr2 electric pump
The MR2 pumps aren't exactly cheap. Plus you've still got fluid and lines, and a remote reservoir to deal with mounting somewhere and routing, not to mention the wiring as well. At that point it's probably just as easy to use a mechanical pump mounted on the engine, and run long lines to the front of the car.
While the full electric systems aren't necessarily cheap either right now, their cost will only come down, as more cars move towards using them, and more of them end up in the yards. And you don't have to worry about fluid leaks, mounting the reservoir in an appropriate place to be accessible for filling, and all that.
$600 for a near bolt-in eps unit; I would buy in a heartbeat!
Me too. Unfortunately, the custom PS racks they make are hydraulic. I wonder if they could make a longer version of the Chevette's PS rack. That's all we really need.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 05-03-2011).]
Me too. Unfortunately, the custom PS racks they make are hydraulic. I wonder if they could make a longer version of the Chevette's PS rack. That's all we really need.
Machine some spacers like others use for the vett ps rack. At least an eps unit would not require a pump and hydrolic lines...
Looking at the design, I'm really liking it. And it looks like it could be fairly simple to wire up, so it may be a feasible option. I don't know if the ratios and controller on the other versions of Hondas with similar units are the same though. Some of the newer controllers might be more tightly bound to the CAN bus in the car.
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09:02 PM
RumbleB Member
Posts: 341 From: The Great Lakes! Registered: Aug 2008
It would be nice if this could help reduce the turns "lock-to-lock" on the Fiero for faster reaction times.
You don't need power steering to do that. You just need a rack with a higher ratio. Some of the F-body rack swaps were just to get the faster ratio, and hydraulic lines aren't even run. Just capped off. The 95+ NSX racks seem to have a variable ratio as well, which might help quite a bit if one were to swap it into a Fiero.
You could also just get one of the steering rack manufacturers to custom build you a manual rack with the ratio you want, which bolts directly into the Fiero.
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12:47 PM
May 5th, 2011
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
The s2000 EPS is connected in the front, so you'll be turning the car in the wrong direction. My understanding is that some of the newer civics have the steering connected the way we do as thats what many of the earlier honduh people use to "upgrade" to EPS to get a bajillion horsepower more (well that and a yellow sticker that says something they dont understand in Japanese)
The s2000 EPS is connected in the front, so you'll be turning the car in the wrong direction. My understanding is that some of the newer civics have the steering connected the way we do as thats what many of the earlier honduh people use to "upgrade" to EPS to get a bajillion horsepower more (well that and a yellow sticker that says something they dont understand in Japanese)
So kawaii!
But the Fiero steering rack is forward of the wheels as well, so it wouldn't be the wrong direction. And even if it were the wrong direction, it would be possible to get a JDM unit and mount it upside down to put the pinion back on the correct side, which would correct steering direction.
Did you join just to make a childish stab at Honda owners?
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10:46 AM
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
Did you join just to make a childish stab at Honda owners?
No, but its a hobby of mine.
Anyways, if you want pics of anything on the s2000, my friend has one (with no yellow stickers) so i can take pics of whatever is helpful, this is certainly something I'd be very interested in doing myself so I'm happy to help.
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11:23 AM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
Originally posted by dobey: You don't need power steering to do that. You just need a rack with a higher ratio. Some of the F-body rack swaps were just to get the faster ratio, and hydraulic lines aren't even run. Just capped off. The 95+ NSX racks seem to have a variable ratio as well, which might help quite a bit if one were to swap it into a Fiero.
You could also just get one of the steering rack manufacturers to custom build you a manual rack with the ratio you want, which bolts directly into the Fiero.
Good to know. I figured I'd need an EPS rack if I reduce the number of turns "lock-to-lock", as physics would say that steering effort is increased as travel is decreased.
Without digging too long in the archives, is there a list somewhere of steering racks that is proven to work with Fieros? (I understand '88 Fieros have more choices than '84-87? And there are different ratios among stock Fiero racks?)
Good to know that one can avoid running hydraulic lines.
Please let me know a bit more about the NSX racks. Is it EPS, or hydraulic, or unassisted? How difficult are they to find?
If I understand correctly, having high assist, that's not speed sensitive results in a numb steering feel? - Is that correct?
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06:15 PM
Austrian Import Member
Posts: 3919 From: Monterey, CA Registered: Feb 2007
The s2000 EPS is connected in the front, so you'll be turning the car in the wrong direction. My understanding is that some of the newer civics have the steering connected the way we do as thats what many of the earlier honduh people use to "upgrade" to EPS to get a bajillion horsepower more (well that and a yellow sticker that says something they dont understand in Japanese)
Hey, don't diss the stickers with chinese characters that say soup (possibly 汤?) They're known to add almost as much horsepower as racing stripes, and Vtec stickers. :-p
Besides the s2000, which other cars have readily available quick ratio steering racks with EPS units we can borrow from?
[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 05-05-2011).]
Originally posted by Austrian Import: Please let me know a bit more about the NSX racks. Is it EPS, or hydraulic, or unassisted? How difficult are they to find?
The NSX came with either EPS or manual steering racks. The page I linked before lists which years/models came with what. They don't seem to be the easiest to find though, and I think they are generally priced a bit higher, because they are from an NSX.
Originally posted by Austrian Import: Besides the s2000, which other cars have readily available quick ratio steering racks with EPS units we can borrow from?
I don't know what the ratio is for all of the cars, including the S2000. But if you search for "EPS steering rack" on eBay, you will find lots of options. Lots of Lexus, Mazda, etc… options. Some will work, and some won't though, but I don't have any idea which ones would be easiest to use, and which ones definitely will work.
I think I might try to get an NSX rack myself, or an S2000 rack. I don't know how different the electronics are on the S2000 for the EPS unit, though. The NSX seems fairly simple, and the design is very nice, which is why I like it. But anything labeled NSX is going to be $$$.
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06:57 PM
whitey078 Member
Posts: 39 From: austin, tx, usa Registered: May 2011
Besides the s2000, which other cars have readily available quick ratio steering racks with EPS units we can borrow from?
From what i was reading on the Honda forums they use the later Civic one, I'm not sure what the ratio is, but my friend has an SI, i'll have him check his SI to see. According to what i was reading the Civic rack is the same orientation as ours, and if the SI also has it then it'd likely have a nice quick ratio.
[This message has been edited by whitey078 (edited 05-05-2011).]
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07:01 PM
May 6th, 2011
fierosound Member
Posts: 15147 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
The NSX came with either EPS or manual steering racks. The page I linked before lists which years/models came with what. They don't seem to be the easiest to find though, and I think they are generally priced a bit higher, because they are from an NSX.
I agree, we would pay a premium for the NSX unit just because its from an Acura NSX. However, since the NSX is a high performance car, the ratio :may" be more suitable for our needs. Not to mention (and don't quote me on this) it "may" reduce the amount of PS assist as the mph increase; which imo, would be great...
Hmmm... here's a hydraulic PS rack on a Miata. Appears to be forward of the front wheels, and the mounting looks similar to the Fiero's.
Hydraulic swaps have already been documented. Finding a suitable hydraulic ps rack is not an issue. The appeal of the eps unit is not having to deal w/ a pump and running hydraulic lines... JMO though...
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11:55 AM
fierosound Member
Posts: 15147 From: Calgary, Canada Registered: Nov 1999
Hydraulic swaps have already been documented. Finding a suitable hydraulic ps rack is not an issue. The appeal of the eps unit is not having to deal w/ a pump and running hydraulic lines... JMO though...
I agree... I started this thread.
While looking for electric racks I found this and noticed it's similarity to the Fiero rack. For those who want to go the hydraulic route, I thought I'd throw out another hydraulic rack that may be better than those already documented. Someone would have to have both racks on the floor to compare them and see.
I believe the next gen Miata will be electric steer.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 05-06-2011).]
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