has anyone done a ls4 to either a getrag or f-40 six speed manual swap? i have a sbc to getrag and was considering an ls4 swap/upgrade. i know a custom flywheel will be needed and a starter mount location and the electronics will need to be figured out. i don't want an auto trans, even with with the tapshift it's just not the same as a stick. i think an ls4 could be built to rev higher and be a better match for the short ratios of the getrag or f-40, and without an adaptor plate betweeen the engine and trans, plus the fact the ls4 is shorter than other ls engines, it will probably fit better in the engine bay on the passenger side. anyone have any thoughts on this, or links to threads? thanks for any info, chris

The issue with the LS4 is it was designed to use the smaller FWD sized flex plate to work with the FWD autos. With this smaller flywheel, there is minimal clearance to fit a starter on the engine side due to the Y block configuration. This is what caused the LS4 starter to be tranny mounted on the 4T65 and is the major challange of using the LS4 in a manual application (no GM manual tranny setup for tranny mounted starter).

However, FieroAddiction is doing a LS4 swap and in his thread mentioned mocking up a starter location off the F40 6 speed for the LS4 application. Might want to get in touch with him...

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/095910.html

av8fiero if you get a response from fieroaddiction please let us know his response or get him to respond here! I would really like to know the answer and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I'm doing this exact same combo. I started with a truck 5.3, but gave up on it once I found an LS4 for a fair price, and I already got my 6-speed off E-bay. I can tell you that space on the passenger side wasn't an issue with the truck setup and a 1/4"-thick adapter plate. Going to the LS4 and no adapter adds like an inch more clearance. I did have to notch that bracket right behind the passenger's headrest, to clear the valve cover, but then the coil pack fit fine. Good luck with yours.

quote Originally posted by Isolde: I'm doing this exact same combo.

Do you have a solution for the starter yet??

Bump in the hope of updates!

I'm thinking I'll hafta have some welding done to the trans case, to create some mounting bosses for a starter. Of course, Once I have the welding done, then I'll hafta get a good non-automotive, general machine shop to mill these new bosses flat. Then drill and tap and test fit and go from there.
GM has done testing of a FWD car with an LS4 and the F40-MT2, but nothing ever came of it, to the general public. Like us. I bet whatever they did was just as fabricated as whatever we end up having to do. I'll post whatever progress, or mistakes, I make when warm weather lets me retrieve my currently-snowed-in Fiero to the carport where I work on it.

i found this picture of a starter mount and custom oil pan that fastfieros at least mocked up. i think this could possibly work for a starter mount with the ls4. i wonder if fastfieros still has that pan. i know the flywheel with the ls4 would be smaller but at least i'ts a start. here's the pic

A couple more pictures of what Loyde was working on





These are from here

is the 4t65e-HD in the v8 grand prix a specific casing?

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: is the 4t65e-HD in the v8 grand prix a specific casing?

Yes--It is made to allow the starter to mount on the rear side of it.

The pictures with the starter mounted on the bottom of the oil pan was GMs prototype parts from back in the day. There where like 10 kits out that other bought when they went up for sale.

are any of those pans still around? it would be nice if there were any to get some measurements off.

I've already modified an '88 2.8 flywheel to work on a 5.3L truck LS V8. Mass isn't an issue. The issue is balance. ALL LS V8s are internal balance, so you need the flywheel to be neutral. I'll be going with an aluminum flywheel, to reduce the shock-loading to the trans. I'm a but concerned about slamming the starter against the ground, but I was aware of the possibility of that second oilpan, pictured, and it's starter.
The 4T65E-HD used with the LS4 IS different from all other 4T65E-HDs. It has a provision for a starter. If I could buy a failed one, I might cut the starter pad off, and include the 2 nearest bellhousing bolt bosses, and then check if it clears the clutch. It'd be a challenge to make a matching notch in the MT2, and even tougher to weld it up without tweaking anything, but it hinges on the off chance of finding a failed LS4-specific 4T65E-HD.

what did you have to do machining wise to the flywheel to make it mount to the engine? i would think that a v6 flywheel modified to fit the ls4 with its smaller size would be light enough making a custom aluminum an unnecessary expense. and what about a factory g6 multi piece flywheel? could that be modified/machined to work behind an ls4? i think that would be the way to go simpicity wise. unless your going crazy horsepowerwise, [i know you can never have enough but] i would think that would make an excellent combo. i do think you are on to something with the starter mount. i have been looking at purchasing an ls4 engine but most come with the trans. if i go that route i think i would just cut the case as you described. i know it would ruin the trans but that's ok with me if i can find a reasonably priced combo. i would think your idea would work providing the starter position would be clear of the shifter cable positions. i'll have to look at an ls4 to see if they would interfere with each other. i would think the starter would clear the clutch as a pressure plate and disk are usually not as thick as a torque converter. as for welding the starter mount onto the bellhousing of the f-40, i think you could keep it all square by simply mounting the cut starter section and the correspondingly cut f-40 to a cast iron v6 with the correct bolt pattern and use that as your jig, then have your favorite aluminium welder make those 2 parts one.

i was looking around for some ls4 pics and remember someone saying that ls4s were machined with the v8 belhousing pattern/bosses as well as the fwd pattern. i was thinking it would be feasible/easier to use those unused v8 pattern bosses to fab up a starter mount and then just cut the f-40 housing for starter snout access to the flywheel. this would offer more flexibilty with starter location versus cutting the starter mount off the ls4 trans, plus i would think there would be less cutting of the f-40 case [keeping it stronger] and you might eliminate the need to weld completely. here is a pic i found that was posted by fierophrek showing the bellhousing patterns on the block.

i think that a starter mount using those bosses would be relatively simple to fabricate. what do you think?

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88blackchopv8

Couple of more things to consider.

The splines on the F40 range from 1 1/2" to 2 7/8" deep from the bellhousing face, so the clutch hub splines will need to be in that range. The stock G6 flywheel is 1.62" thick from crank flange to clutch surface to accomplish this. Using a stock fiero flywheel will require a significant spacer to move the clutch surface in.

What might be a viable flywheel option is to turn down a RWD LSx flywheel to the proper OD and to accept the ring gear. This would have the proper bolt pattern and should be thicker. For my SBC/F40 - I took a billet hays 153 tooth flywheel and turned it down to accept the nissan ring gear. It was thick enough to move the clutch out the needed distance and ends up weighing 21lbs.

With an automatic, there is more room for the starter body to clear the torque converter. This makes is easier to tuck a starter along side.


With a clutch and pressure plate, there will be less room for the starter body to clear the flywheel and pressure plate... It might help to move the ring gear to the face of the flywheel, but it is still going to be tight.



It might help to move the ring gear to the face of the flywheel or mount the ring gear on the pressure plate if it will fit that deep inside the tranny.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-03-2009).]

Some great thinking there. The snow is still too deep around my Fiero to get my F40 out of the passenger seat, but maybe it's just as well. I had a local non-automotive-specific machine shop do the center hole of the flywheel to match the LM7 crank, then use the truck flexplate for the bolt pattern. No real challenge. Didn't cost much, either. As for the 3900 flywheel, it has enough mass to break the F40's input shaft when those G6 GT guys try nitrous and drag radials, so no chance of me trying that. If you're going to run your LS4 stock, with no cam change or power adder such as nitrous or boost, then it's your call.
I'm intrigued with the idea of using the rwd bellhousing bolt bosses for a starter mount. Less cutting of the F40. Maybe.
As for interference with the shift cables, the cables require custom bracketry anyway, though Archie probably offers some. I was thinking just use the G6 brackets and shifter, and get extra-long cables from B&M, as they make them up to 15 feet long.

i understand what you're saying about flywheel depth. i think your idea of machining down a rwd lsx flywheel is a great idea. a spacer may still be needed to get it in the proper position but that should be no big deal. i do see what you're saying about starter interference with the clutch assy.i think a starter like this

with the starter motor itself offset from the starter gear would help in providing enough clearance near the clutch for everything to work effectively. getting the ring gear as far into the bellhousing as possible onto the trans side of the flywheel as you suggested will help too

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88blackchopv8

Notice the inner lip about 1" into the tranny bellhousing:


A stock fiero ring gear will not fit past it... no moving the ring gear:


In this pic, there are 4 main bolt bosses on the bell housing case. The lower right one will need to be cut away. Also if youcut along the current starter bulge (but keep the bellhousing flange intact) you can open up clearance for a starter. Then you could use the 3 remaining bosses to make a bracket to hold the starter, and make the starter solution a cut and bolt on deal... once a starter is found that will fit.




Here is a nissan face mount starter. Its main body is offset about the needed amount, but the flange mount will get in the way... it is more for a thought provoker:





Something else to ponder... if the clearance from the ring gear to the pressure plate is too tight, there might be another non-GM ring gear that would be slightly larger in diameter, but still small enough to fit. The nissan one I am using is just slightly larger, but still fits.


So who will be the first to cut the starter bulge from a brand new F40?

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-03-2009).]

I have no concerns with weakening the bellhousing area. It's not that stressed anyway. My main reason for going LS is it's the cheapest and easiest way to get 500 horses to be emissions legal. I'm having mine overbored to 5.7L, since the sleeves are thick enough, and the LS4 was never offered with a manual, but the LS6 was, and these heads are identical to the LS6 except the LS4 valves are heavier. Anyway, When you twist it to higher rpm before upshifting, you're increasing the shock to the trans because therpm drops more. Upshifting from first to second at 2000 rpm puts you at 1080 rpm, a drop of 920 rpm. Upshifting at 6000 rpm puts you at 3240 rpm, a drop of 2760 rpm. Trying to take 2760 rpm worth of inertia out of the flywheel, which is what you do by engaging the clutch, is alot more than taking 920 rpm worth.
Now I understand you're looking at more like 6500 versus 5500, but the point, while less exaggerated, is still valid. So, the issue isn't your low-rpm torque, it's how heavy your flywheel is, and how gradually you re-engage the clutch. Then again, 90 % of your upshifts will be at less than half the rpm of your redline, wherever you set it.
My first cam will be Lunati's smallest VooDoo grind, and after I have a solid baseline, then their next larger VooDoo cam.
I like bragging about unbelieveable gas mileage, but LS6 programming won't support DOD or VVT. COMP CAMS grinds some cams specifically for the VVT 6.0L truck LSes, but why give up DOD and the 3 mpg hwy it helps? As for the LS6 intake, it's only 10 horses better than the one on your LS4, so save the expense and hassle. The truck intake can support a cam, heads and headers 5.3 making 441 hp at 6300 rpm. On an engine dyno.

in this picture i''m looking at the area next to the filter and the backside of the bellhousing flange. it may be possible to machine a flat and bore a hole through it for a starter mount eliminating any need to cut any part of the f-40 case [i know than you're messing with the block, which is more scary? lol]. i wouldn't think there would be any water jacket there to worry about, and it looks like you may be able to get that starter gear in the correct position. here's the pic

as long as that flange is just solid aluminum i think that looks the most feasible. you wouldn't be worried about strength as all you would be hanging out there is a starter. it looks like you could get the starter gear very near the centering dowel on that side of the engine. that area would have to be machined off [scary] then you would have to be sure you get the trans centered missing that dowel. just thinking out loud, still gathering parts trying to work this out beforehand. let me know what you think

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88blackchopv8

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 03-04-2009).]

quote Originally posted by av8fiero: in this picture i''m looking at the area next to the filter and the backside of the bellhousing flange. it may be possible to machine a flat and bore a hole through it for a starter mount eliminating any need to cut any part of the f-40 case [i know than you're messing with the block, which is more scary? lol]. i wouldn't think there would be any water jacket there to worry about, and it looks like you may be able to get that starter gear in the correct position. here's the pic

Looking at those two pics, I am not sure the flywheel is large enough to engage a starter, even if you cut into the block in that location. I do not have an LS block to measure and confirm if there is room or not. I would rather cut up a case on a $350 tranny than the engine block, but that is just me.

i agree i'd rather cut the case of the trans but the more i think about it. i don't think there is enough starter snout to clutch clearance as you pointed out. i don't have a block or a trans yet so i can't take any measurements, but from the pictures it looks like the most available space for a starter mount is in that flange/centering dowel area. if you could find some crazy starter with a large enough [larger than i've ever seen] starter gear i think that would open up all kinds of mount possibilitys. if there is nothing cast into that part of the block it's really not necessary for anything. it's just that dowel that concerns me. from the pics it looks like you could get a starter in close enough to engage the flywheel. if someone has an ls4 block perhaps we could get some measurements in that area. i'm in no hurry with this project so i have plenty of time to figure this out. right now i'm messing with my choptop bodywork. here's some pics of what i'm working on




once the bodywork is done the ls4/f-40 is the next project before it gets painted. what axles did you use for your 6 speed conversion? are there a factory parts available that will work? trying to avoid the expense of custom axles.

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88blackchopv8

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 03-04-2009).]

What about just using the starter/alternator from a hybrid Ecotec?

interesting idea, do you have a pic of one? is that belt driven? let us know thanks

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88blackchopv8

[This message has been edited by av8fiero (edited 03-05-2009).]

As for that part of the block, I was thinking about having it machined off at an angle, then using the flat created to mount a starter. I'm also thinking that since SPEC created a flywheel just for the Northstar-into-Fiero guys, they might do us a flywheel, once someone actually does a functional starter solution. I didn't realize that you weren't actually working on an LS4/MT2, I was thinking you were further along than me, and had more $ to work with. Maybe I will be the first. That's not a happy thought. Anyway, there's no coolant or oil in the portion of the block in question, and it won't affect structural integrity. Plus, depending on the cut, the removed piece could probably be re-welded later if desired.

Lookie what I found....



OEM reverse rotation, with mounting holes toward the outside, and the snout already clearanced to clear a flywheel/pressure plate. It looks promising, but will not know for sure unless it is mocked up and clearance is checked. It is a nissan starter, so I might just take my flywheel/pressure plate combo into autozone and see if it will clear the pressure plate... I will be traveling most of the weekend, so it will be mid next week before I know anything more.

While I am not doing an LS4/F40 swap, I am doing a SBC/F40 and "if" I went to the starter on tranny, I would not need an oilfilter bypass... much less clutter. I will have to think about going the tranny mounted starter route some more...

i like the starter you found but it still looks iffy clearance wise mounting it on the trans. as for mounting the starter off the bellhousing flange, i don't think you would need a filter adaptor as the filter is actually more in the pan area on an ls4. on your sbc application i think you're right and a trans mount would be cleaner, IF you have enough clearance.

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88blackchopv8

PLEASE give the application or part number, or preferably both. This might be perfect for that proposed bracket to be created to attach to the SBC bellhousing holes (on the LS4) And thank you for the pic!

is there an application of that starter with normal rotation? if that starter doesn't clear for a trans mount it looks like it will clear if it's turned around and mounted normally. what vehicle/ part number is this starter? thanks, chris

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88blackchopv8

I realize that there is a fraterity here than loves to drive with a stick but for my taste; if I did an LS4 swap I would keep it simple and go with the special 4T65eHD matching auto. IMO obtaining the needed precison on starter alignment by placing it under the engine is challenging. If you mount under the engine then a water shield placed below might be necessary for longevity. I'm sure that it can be done successfully but re-engineering is never an easy task.
BTW, has anyone completed an LS4 swap other than Darth Fiero? IIRC he had issues getting the engine management to work correctly but haven't heard anything of late.
In summation, I find all LS4 swap posts interesting as its a fit that requires fabrication and ingenuity. My series III swap was a cakewalk when compared to this.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE WILDCAT"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Here's a link to a reverse drive offset pinion starter that I use with the 4T65
that's mated to my LS1. The teeth are a perfect match to the Fiero ring gear.
It might fit over the top of a manual transmission.

Orville

http://www2.partstrain.com/...395+1616+10332&Nty=1

wow that starter looks great! thanks for the info. here's the pic

and here's some info on it
FITS (ENGINE/CHASSIS) SKU PRICE QTY
1995-2000 Ford Contour USSTR-2831 $116.86

1996: GL; 6Cyl 2.5L Gas, FI, VIN "L";
1996: LX; 6Cyl 2.5L Gas, FI, VIN "L";
1996: SE; 6Cyl 2.5L Gas, FI, VIN "L";
1996: Sport; 6Cyl 2.5L Gas, FI, VIN "L";
that looks like it may be a winner!
thanks, chris

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88blackchopv8

Dennis, the starter under the oilpan is something GM engineered, and until just now, I was tempted to build a skidplate and go that route. Av8fiero, I'll hafta think on this a bit, but my first thought is you may have had the best idea yet. Also, Thanks , um, I forgot your user name, but I appreciate the part number, etcetera.