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How much power can V6 block support? by MordacP
Started on: 10-30-2007 07:52 PM
Replies: 96
Last post by: JazzMan on 11-30-2007 05:53 PM
MordacP
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Report this Post10-30-2007 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MordacPClick Here to Email MordacPSend a Private Message to MordacPDirect Link to This Post
Like the subject says, I (and i suspect others do as well) wanna know how much power the stock V6 block can support.
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
I would say more than you can get n/a. Do you have something in mind? With enough turbo and nitrous though, not sure.
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Mr.PBody
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Mr.PBodyClick Here to visit Mr.PBody's HomePageClick Here to Email Mr.PBodySend a Private Message to Mr.PBodyDirect Link to This Post
People on here have been pushing 300whp with turbos. Cosworth built a like 700hp one but I doubt that was even remotley close to a stock block.
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MordacP
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MordacPClick Here to Email MordacPSend a Private Message to MordacPDirect Link to This Post
I am wondering if I should seriously pursue a turbo project on my V6. I wasn't sure if it was worth it but if people have made 300 (how do you know this?) then that's above and beyond my expectations. I would be happy with 250 or even 200.
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XanthClick Here to visit Xanth's HomePageSend a Private Message to XanthDirect Link to This Post
I'm not sure about actual power they produced, but Lou_Dias on this forum and Shaun on RFT have turbo 2.8's you could try asking them. Shaun actually has a build thread for his on RFT, not sure if there is one here for Lou_Dias' car.

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MordacP
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MordacPClick Here to Email MordacPSend a Private Message to MordacPDirect Link to This Post
Xanth, can you please link to the turbo build thread you mentioned?
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Xanth
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XanthClick Here to visit Xanth's HomePageSend a Private Message to XanthDirect Link to This Post
I PM'd the link to you, not sure If posting it here is somehow against the rules.
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ryan.hess
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
I would say 500hp?

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-2-072443.html

(took me forever to find that... I knew it was out there.)
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post10-30-2007 08:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
Built correctly using precison balancing and quality components one turbocharged /intercooled 3.4L P/R engine that I know of has held up to power levels of 327HP and 397 ft lbs of torque. I had my doubts that the venerable 60* V6 would hold up to these power levels but Tioga the guy who built the engine regularly races it and it uses all stock internals (except pistons) . The Tioga dyno test is on YouTube if you want to view it. I believe that the key here is precison balancing of the crank , rods, pistons, damper and flywheel. Proper blueprint balancing greatly reduces stress on the rotating assembly so by adding it you are IMO building for success..

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Report this Post10-30-2007 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TKSend a Private Message to TKDirect Link to This Post
It depends how long you want it to last. I'm sure it will make a 1000HP for a few seconds.

For the standard 660 block GM considered the practical limit to be 300 HP and 7000 RPM. Certainly some people have gotten more for shorter or longer times. That's just what GM thought was reasonable with *some" life.

For lots of money you can get lots of HP.

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Report this Post10-30-2007 09:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Direct Link to This Post
If you look at the camaro forums 3.4s have had huge HP numbers over 600 IIRC
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Report this Post10-30-2007 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tha DriverClick Here to visit Tha Driver's HomePageSend a Private Message to Tha DriverDirect Link to This Post
I see a lot of folks don't read too well. The OP asked how much a *stock* V6 block will hold; that means a 2.8 (this *is* a Fiero forum after all). I've been told a "stock" 2.8 (meaning stock internals) is reliable at 200 HP, but not much more. Reliable meaning years of service IMO. 200 HP is not bad for a little Fiero - heck the stock engine at 140 does pretty well. Get 200 & lighten it up some & it'd be a peppy machine.
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Report this Post10-31-2007 05:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Xanth:

I'm not sure about actual power they produced, but Lou_Dias on this forum and Shaun on RFT have turbo 2.8's you could try asking them. Shaun actually has a build thread for his on RFT, not sure if there is one here for Lou_Dias' car.



Yeah but Shaun's car is now dead since he killed some pistons due to his bad tuning.

As for "stock block" power, Dennis noted a 3.4L in a F-body put down 327rwhp but it should be noted that was at max boost with race fuel. The same car running in "street mode" still had 260rwhp. The short block was claimed as being stock but it had custom heads. There use to be a website where a guy had a GM 2.8L and twin-turbo's in an old Datsun. His dyno was around 600hp but if I recall that was race gas and the car was strictly a drag strip car. As for how much it can support, It is a 2-bolt main block so I would say 300hp or less. Anything more and you would need to strengthen the bottom end. Of course reliability drops the higher you go. If you really want to stick with the 60* V-6, I would suggest starting with a 3.4L because the oiling galleys are much better then the 2.8L.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 10-31-2007).]

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Report this Post10-31-2007 07:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tha Driver:

I see a lot of folks don't read too well. The OP asked how much a *stock* V6 block will hold; that means a 2.8 (this *is* a Fiero forum after all). I've been told a "stock" 2.8 (meaning stock internals) is reliable at 200 HP, but not much more. Reliable meaning years of service IMO. 200 HP is not bad for a little Fiero - heck the stock engine at 140 does pretty well. Get 200 & lighten it up some & it'd be a peppy machine.
~ Paul
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Nahh, I think the block can go far past that. the failures everyone is talking about are in the crank and internals and the origional question was how much the block can handle. nobody has reported a block failure yet.

I'm betting the 2.8 block can handle close to 450Hp before fracture. a 3.4 block being far more reinforced could handle twice that much.

I bet if you had enough money you could get a 3.4 block past the 1000hp number. get some external reinforcements on there strap down the heads so they dont lift as well and modify a few things. The block it's self can go to incredible power levels.
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Report this Post10-31-2007 07:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTDirect Link to This Post
The general rule of thumb for push rod GM engines for reliable streetability is 1 hp per ci. For the 3.4, in NA, this would be 207 hp, however, Oreif proved this is not strictly true. As well, the old carbureted 327 did produce 350 hp. So, the 2.8 (173ci) should be able to easily support 175 hp. In a pinch, with a well prepared engine, I think 200hp is possible. Personally, I would not take the engine that high. My own objective with a stock block is 175hp. I hope this helps.

Arn

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Report this Post10-31-2007 02:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TKSend a Private Message to TKDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Arns85GT:

The general rule of thumb for push rod GM engines for reliable streetability is 1 hp per ci. For the 3.4, in NA, this would be 207 hp, however, Oreif proved this is not strictly true. As well, the old carbureted 327 did produce 350 hp. So, the 2.8 (173ci) should be able to easily support 175 hp. In a pinch, with a well prepared engine, I think 200hp is possible. Personally, I would not take the engine that high. My own objective with a stock block is 175hp. I hope this helps.

Arn



I agree. If my target HP was above 175 or so, I'd go to a different engine and not try it with push rod 660. There would have to be some compelling reason to stick with that engine.
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Report this Post10-31-2007 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
a stock bottom end 3800 will handle about 850 crank horsepower.
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Report this Post10-31-2007 07:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XanthClick Here to visit Xanth's HomePageSend a Private Message to XanthDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:

a stock bottom end 3800 will handle about 850 crank horsepower.


Which is in no way relevant to the question, the 3800 is known for a strong bottom end, but that is certainly not a stock 2.8

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 10-31-2007).]

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Report this Post10-31-2007 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefighterClick Here to Email FirefighterSend a Private Message to FirefighterDirect Link to This Post
Sticking to your question, which I took to mean the stock 2.8, 200 hp is a given. Without blowing it up, meaning absolutely no nitrous, perhaps 250 is doable without much trouble. Lots of my buddies have referenced 3.2 or 3.4 or the 3800 which of course puts a whole new twist to what I thought was the question. A properly sized turbo, with approx. 10 lbs. of boost, with some form of intercooling, regular radiator type or water/alcohol injection (my choice) with 19lb. or larger injectors, a chip programmed correctly (from a few reliable sources; I repeat a FEW reliable sources) will get you to 225-230.
Take a look at design1systems.com for a turbo kit.


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[This message has been edited by Firefighter (edited 10-31-2007).]

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engine man
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Report this Post11-01-2007 11:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manClick Here to Email engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
The Chevy power book i have said the stock componets are good for around 280 HP at 7000 rpm that is in a NA engine not turbo
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Report this Post11-01-2007 11:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskDirect Link to This Post
Shaun over at RFT supposedly has a 800 rwhp 2.8 which is at least 925 crank hp
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Report this Post11-01-2007 12:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

Shaun over at RFT supposedly has a 800 rwhp 2.8 which is at least 925 crank hp


He was just posting that for attention.
Actually he has 0.0hp since his bad tuning ran the motor too lean and he damaged pistons.
It is a good example of how running too lean can cause severe pre-detonation which will damage a motor quickly.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-09-2007).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post11-01-2007 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
A 2.8L with all stock internals?? I'll go with the 280 HP figure but with forged pistons and a blueprint balancing job. The 2.8L block is fairly strong and I would not worry that much about it breaking. The 2.8L's weak point is the pistons (cast units) rods but mainly the 2 bolt main caps. The 3.4L has a stronger block casting but virtually the same strength internals.
I don't believe that the GM 60* engine is the ideal platform for heavy HP but 200-225 HP should be doable but it will cost allot of money to get it to this figure.. For the money that you will spend you might want to consider another engine platform.

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crytical point
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Report this Post11-01-2007 03:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crytical pointClick Here to Email crytical pointSend a Private Message to crytical pointDirect Link to This Post
So I had asked the 60v6 people and if you swap 3400 block with 3500 top end with 3.4 camaro pistons you can get 11.5:1 compression and way over 200hp and one guy has over 300hp N/A. The 60 V6 has more potential out side of the 2.8 and fiero top end and the aluminum heads flow alot better than the iron and well worth the swap if you don't care about the gimp fiero heads and intake. You can get over 200hp with just a stock 3400 let alone swaping heads, porting, exhaust, cam, pulleys, rocker arms, and all the machining you could need will produce a potent engine with out boost or nitrous and you can always add boost or nitrous for a nice fast machine. 3800 is a nice engine but honestly you can get the same power out of a 3400 and be nice to the engine and get real good mpg and the fact that in N/a form it is as good as a 3800 but the bottom end is not as strong but good enough to keep a smile on your face unless your building a 500+ hp drag racing car.
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Report this Post11-01-2007 03:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by crytical point:
3800 is a nice engine but honestly you can get the same power out of a 3400 and be nice to the engine and get real good mpg and the fact that in N/a form it is as good as a 3800 but the bottom end is not as strong but good enough to keep a smile on your face unless your building a 500+ hp drag racing car.


3800>3400

I'm building a 500+hp STREET car.
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Report this Post11-01-2007 04:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
manual trans + turbo 3800 = streetable 600whp with stock bottom end motor.
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Report this Post11-01-2007 04:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

The 2.8L block is fairly strong and I would not worry that much about it breaking. The 2.8L's weak point is the pistons (cast units) rods but mainly the 2 bolt main caps. The 3.4L has a stronger block casting but virtually the same strength internals.



The 3.4 has stronger rods than the 2.8, they are bigger. I compared them on my last build. They are comparable to the SBC rods. And yes stock pistons suck.


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Report this Post11-01-2007 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TKSend a Private Message to TKDirect Link to This Post
The Ecotech has the potential for 1000HP+. Do you do it? Probably not.

When these questions come up I'm glad to see some people get real and say that 200 on a NA pushrod 660 for the street is the practical limit before considering a different motor is in order.
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Report this Post11-01-2007 05:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
Problem is most everyone is posting HP numbers based on the internals failure point. The origional question was what the HP level the BLOCK can handle. The big heavy chunk of cast iron with lots of big holes drilled in it. you have ot not call out failure HP numbers for the crank, rods, etc... and instead look at what point does the walls of the Block casting fracture or the threads in the casting can no longer hold pressure and make the heads fly off.

I bet if you built it up with the correct internals you probably could get incredible HP and even insane RPM numbers out of a 60 degree V6 block. Saying the crank dies at 300HP (just throwing out a number) means that is how much the CRANK can handle and not the BLOCK. have a custom Crank made and bbalance within a 1/8th gram, custom machine to get better bots on the caps and even more bolts. custom made pistons and rods designed for the horsepower also matched within milligrams. some of those new high tech coatings on the skirts to reduce friction, etc...

Some dragracers are getting almost 2000HP out of small block v8 engines. and they still are having internal failures and not block failures.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 11-01-2007).]

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Report this Post11-01-2007 05:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TKSend a Private Message to TKDirect Link to This Post
True. I would imagine we could get some huge numbers for a couple of crank rotations before the block gave out.

I just think anecdotal HP numbers are disingenuous.
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Report this Post11-01-2007 06:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by timgray:
Some dragracers are getting almost 2000HP out of small block v8 engines. and they still are having internal failures and not block failures.


They're not doing it on production blocks... in fact the new aftermarket blocks for the Gen III/IV engines have provisions for 1-2 additional headbolts per cylinder... Just as an example of how NOT production these engines are.
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Report this Post11-01-2007 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RotrexFieroClick Here to visit RotrexFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to RotrexFieroDirect Link to This Post
I know there is all this HP talk, but dont these engines make more torque than HP. Hey, that counts for a lot, as I know my 3.2 turbo is not making high HP numbers but the torque is just great. I can pull up hills in fourth gear.

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Report this Post11-01-2007 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MordacP:

Xanth, can you please link to the turbo build thread you mentioned?


You may not want to duplicate the turbo build exactly as posted.

 
quote
Originally posted by Shaun on RFT:

I am running a boosted setup, no knock sensor and no worries.


And here is the results: (look carefully at the middle piston)

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-01-2007).]

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Report this Post11-01-2007 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
Nothing a little JB Weld couldn't handle! Who needs a knock sensor with a turbo? Sissies, I tell ya!

Man, that RFT site is just crazy. Those guys hate everyone including each other. It's all good I guess. And the guys here with alter egos over there, how do you do it? Never mind, off topic.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 11-01-2007).]

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Report this Post11-02-2007 01:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tha DriverClick Here to visit Tha Driver's HomePageSend a Private Message to Tha DriverDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Nothing a little JB Weld couldn't handle! Who needs a knock sensor with a turbo? Sissies, I tell ya!

Man, that RFT site is just crazy. Those guys hate everyone including each other. It's all good I guess. And the guys here with alter egos over there, how do you do it? Never mind, off topic.



Shaun's a real donkeyhole. Check out my threads there & you'll see: he made a big deal about my sig & little sayings - I told him to kiss it (no one forced him to read them).
Back OT... to the guys that say this thread is about the 2.8 *block* only, I have one question: Why would anyone go to the trouble to change out the crank, rods, & pistons to very expensive custom thingies instead of going to at least a 3.4?
~ Paul
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Report this Post11-02-2007 04:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for nfswiftClick Here to Email nfswiftSend a Private Message to nfswiftDirect Link to This Post
I'm with Paul. A 3.4 iron head is a much better option, sure after a LOT of time and money a 2.8 will hit 200, but then you're in a corner, and will have to turbo/super for more power, and even then you'll be straining the internals after 200. The 3.4 will get you there with less money and more reliably, plus you can add more power after than with the 2.8.

However, it would be a better idea still to get a newer 60*V6 like the 3400. If you chose to go with that you'll see 200hp and beyond without turboing or supercharging, and with FAR less time and money invested.
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timgray
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Report this Post11-02-2007 06:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Nothing a little JB Weld couldn't handle! Who needs a knock sensor with a turbo? Sissies, I tell ya!

Man, that RFT site is just crazy. Those guys hate everyone including each other. It's all good I guess. And the guys here with alter egos over there, how do you do it? Never mind, off topic.



I though knock made EXTRA POWER! the more knock you have the more power you get! :lookout:

I think the best point made is anything can make horsepower, but the 60 degree V6 pre 96 is not the best platform to do it without spending insane amounts of money. Each horsepower you gain costs way more than going to an engine that has lots of aftermarket performance parts for it already.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 11-02-2007).]

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Arns85GT
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Report this Post11-02-2007 08:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTClick Here to Email Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTDirect Link to This Post
I don't think you guys are getting it. Some fella's like me for instance, are happy playing with the 2.8 and happy with staying below 200 hp. Some guys don't want the technical headaches associated with boost and prefer a nice N/A application to play with in their garage. After all, the Fiero is a nice ride to start with, and adding some hp, brake power, and handling make it a fun ride. You just don't need 250+ hp to have fun. Although, a 500 hp 10sec car is loads of fun.

Asking about how much the stock 2.8 block can support kind of indicates the intent of the builder. Building up a small engine is just as much fun as building up a larger engine, and in the end, driving on city streets, will also be as much fun. I hope the question was answered correctly to help him out.

Just my take on it.

Arn
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Hudini
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Report this Post11-02-2007 08:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniClick Here to Email HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
Anyone have a copy of the Chevy 60* V6 power manual? The link previously posted does not seem to work.
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The_Stickman2
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Report this Post11-02-2007 10:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for The_Stickman2Click Here to visit The_Stickman2's HomePageClick Here to Email The_Stickman2Send a Private Message to The_Stickman2Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Anyone have a copy of the Chevy 60* V6 power manual? The link previously posted does not seem to work.



I think I have one why?
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