Hi ! I have been experiencing some heat problems in my fiero V6 2,8 (bored 3) due to the current turbo setup and now that my heads are machined I will have to change the gaskets anyway, friend of mine told me that there has been instructions somewhere (some v6 performance quide or tuning book?) about widening the water holes on the head gaskets`to improve the cooling? Anybody done this, or know about it ?
Even with a turbo the cooling of the Fiero 2.8 is really good in stock design, I don't see the need to modify the head gasket. If anything, increasing the cooling flow through the block and heads may have adverse effects because of the increased temperature differential between the metal temperature and the coolant temperature creating more thermal stresses in the head casting.
If you're having overheating problems it would be better to eliminate any other of the common problems such as a corroded ratiator, bent or crushed coolant tubes under the doors, faulty water pump, etc, before modifying the head gasket. Be sure to use a good brand of head gasket such as FelPro Permatorque or similar.
JazzMan
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01:28 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I agree, overheating problems are going to arise from the coolant not being able to dissapate the heat. You would never know if the engine's internal passages were restricted, and modifiying it could cause blown gaskets, warped heads, or even increase tempatures by decreasing the time the coolant spends in the head to soak up heat. All the tempature sensors are going to read off the liquid tempature anyway. I would start by checking to see if the undercar tubes are kinked at the rear, then check that the radiator isnt restrictive. Ive got a 3.4DOHC turbo and it stays plenty cool stock, and the rad fan doesnt even come on that often.
Sorry guys, I know all your answers from years of experience. (Thanks anyway!)
Actually you would not have eaven suggested me the things you did, if you would know my car and the engine setup, weīre not talking about an average american fiero, weīre talking about totally (top to bottom) modified engine with all new "race classified / hardened" etc parts.
Just to let you know, my friend luckily finally found the article about widening the water passage canals on Fiero head gaskets, you can also find the article from: GM V6 60degree performance buildub manual. I will post the scanned page to this message board on monday.
The factory default holes (eaven on the felpro gaskets Iīve used) are way too small for highly tuned v6 60degree engine, this is actually widely known prosedure when your engine is build for really high powers.
You guys should realise that the heat buildup is totally different in these setups (please realise that we use over 1,8 - 2 bar of boost in Fiero block) which creates ten, if not eaven hundred times more heat than normal fiero engine, eaven with the massive water/air cooler and the water/methanol injection systems that we use.
Off course we would like to use some reference when widening the water holes (this is no kids play) to be on safe side.
JazzMan & 86GT3.4DOHC, Where kind enough to answer your questions, then you turn around and slap them in the face for the advice they give you--and how you have so much more knowledge than they do. If you know all this stuff --why the hell did you post here looking for info?? Take your Pontiac Fiero GT 1987 3,0L Turbo (+500bhp) loads of modifications & drive it in to the middle of lake finland. Along with your scanned page. I`m sure its just
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09:45 AM
HellYes Member
Posts: 736 From: CLifton, IL 60927 Registered: Mar 2005
hey 3800: relax bro... i dont think that our friend from finland ment it as a slap in the face. he asked, they answered. he found what he needed elsewhere and offered to post it up for us. no big deal really. also consider the language difference... i didnt read any insulting tone to his post... but thats just me. i must say however i do agree with what both guys had to say on the topic, and jazz man always offers sound advice.
JazzMan & 86GT3.4DOHC, Where kind enough to answer your questions, then you turn around and slap them in the face for the advice they give you--and how you have so much more knowledge than they do. If you know all this stuff --why the hell did you post here looking for info?? Take your Pontiac Fiero GT 1987 3,0L Turbo (+500bhp) loads of modifications & drive it in to the middle of lake finland. Along with your scanned page. I`m sure its just
Making 300 kW of power instead of 100 kW, it produces something like 700 kW MORE heat than stock one. That is something like 1000 standard coffee-makers. It would be enought heat to keep a big house warm at winter. I'm sure that stock Fiero engine will not tolerate it never. Take a look at this page and see who made the first post.
I am an American and I speak Finnish. I am sure Mika didn't intend to slap anyone. Because of the language differences and the translations Finnish comes over very ruff. If he wanted to slap anyone I am very sure he wouldn't have offered posting the info.
First of all, Iīm really sorry if anyone was insulted somehow ? donno why ?
Second, the page abowe is the exact same page as I was looking for and which my friend also found.
I just hope that you people would understand the difference between your american turbo systems and the one we use here, weīre talking so much different things that makes this propably hard. Notice that eaven my normal fuel 98oct has to bee beefed up with toluene to get it to 100oct, so we donīt get too much ping with high boost. My engine oil gest damaged under 2500km of drive + please note that this fiero is used for track racing also in Ahvenisto raceway here in Hämeenlinna Finland.
If I only had time to do full writeup with images of all that has been done to this engine, you people would understand the thing.
Best regards and hey, also thanks again for the helpers !
ps. we found eaven another page this morning which has the same instructions for enlarging the water holes, to improve the cooling efficiency on "HIGHLY MODDED ENGINE" so there might be a change that were on a right path.... (can post it also if somebody is still not believing or has another thoughts.)
Mika / Finland
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03:43 AM
watts Member
Posts: 3256 From: Coaldale, AB, Canada Registered: Aug 2001
Originally posted by Mika Ruusuvuori: ps. we found eaven another page this morning which has the same instructions for enlarging the water holes.... (can post it also if somebody is still not believing or has another thoughts.)
I'd read the other one from the GM high performance book before - I'd like to see the other one as well.
Here is scanned the page 10 from the GM book: Chevrolet 60-Degree V6. If you check under the location: head gaskets, you will find the same drilling instructions.
We have been discussing a lot about this drilling here with numerous people who make different rallycar engines (yes, we eaven have comments from finnish toyota wrc team engine mechanic, who has been involved in my Fiero project) and eaven they drill the holes wider because of the totally wrong calculation of heat suction to the water, the holes are ok for mild modifications and basic engine but when you start to take the power we do, your engine produces too much heat for the water that is slowly passing through, the only way to prevent too high head temperatures, is to change the amount of water flowing through, high volume water pump gives you no help if your water passage holes are way too small.
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Actually, Iīm going to enlarge some of the holes eaven little more than what has been discribed in these 2 manuals, according to the instructions from my good friend who has almost 30 years of experience on turboed rally engines.
ps. I can post here images what my brand new FelPro 8699pt2 head gaskets look like after this modification and some other modifications that I have had to do, to get them to fit my engine... hehheh maby then you guys realise whatīs going on here.....
500 brake horsepower out of a stock 2.8 crank, block, and heads? I don't think overheating will be much of a problem, the crank, or pieces there of, along with the #3 and/or #4 connecting rods will have exited the engine long before. Even if the engine is capable of hitting that level of power output there is no place on earth where that kind of power can be sustained for more than ninety seconds before the car crashes or the engine blows up. Since essentially 100 percent of the car's time is spent at less than the 60-80 horse power required for sustained high-speed (legal speed) cruising, the heat output at that level is well within the capabilities of the Fiero's already over-engineered cooling system.
Also, at that power output you should probably look into O-ringing the heads and getting a forged crank. Better yet, dump the stock 2.8 block which has all of it's bottom end oil pulled off of the camshaft oil gallery and go with the more modern 3.4 block which has a dedicated oil gallery for the rods and mains.
JazzMan
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01:26 PM
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
I believe he's talking about at least a 90% race car as he mentioned track (road) racing it there in Finland. There are excellent rods available for the V6 and he didn't say he was running a stock crank anywhere in his posts that I saw. Granted at 2 bhp per cubic inch the reliablity isn't going to be great, but it rarely is on race engines. If he actually is running 2 bar (15 psi) boost with the proper cam and support equipment, 500 hp is not out of the realm of possibility. Neither you or I know what all has been done to his motor so before you say it's not possible or it will grenade it might be best to reserve judgement.
You guys are way off with the ideas and writings here about the setup we have in my Fiero.
Note, the 2bar boost is actually correctly translated: 29 PSI !!!!
I have not seen single turbo system in this pennocks www site that would be running as high boost levels as we are.
In fact, all I have seen is highly dangerous setups with parts from scrap yards and broken down cars etc ridiculous setups. Why to eaven bother to build crap like that ?
Just to let you know, I have invested in this race engine more than 15000 US$ and trust me, it is reliable in everyday use up to 1,8 Bar, after that the life depends much on the driver and the oils + other limiting factors.
Yes, the full bottom end has been modified and just to let you know we are currently using hand made titanium rods + hand made forged pistons with U shaped chamber, oh and yes the block happens to be ringed, what a surprise !!!! (read about the "other" modifications to my head gaskets and guess).
ps. really I donīt understand why people here like to write so badly about other peopleīs car that they have never seen, or eaven heard about, come and see the damn thing yourself and quit writing about things you have no idea !
I am an American and I speak Finnish. I am sure Mika didn't intend to slap anyone. Because of the language differences and the translations Finnish comes over very ruff. If he wanted to slap anyone I am very sure he wouldn't have offered posting the info.
Originally posted by 3800superfast: And you where saying ?
NO, What are you saying ?
Am I wrong to get little frustrated about your kind of writings about things you have no qlue what so ever ?
I just donīt understand people who have to write crap about people they donīt eaven know !
I have never ever write to these discussions, unless that I know all the details, or I canīt be of help. So what gives you the right to tell me to drive my car to a lake ? I have never, ever written anything eaven close to that, it seems like you are somehow eaven enjoying this ?! Why ?
Donīt tell me about my answer, I just wanted someone to post the page that had the instruction for drilling, I didnīt wantt anything else to be commented, off course I know that for normal user everything is ok and no modification is needed and I tryed to tell them that just so somebody would still send the page and some one did (BIG THANKS and a + FOR YOU MAN!) !
Oh boy, I have had lotīs of very nice feedback from many people in pff, numerous e-mails etc and I have also provided many people with nice things for their Fieroīs (ask around) but seems that all the bbs columns have the same problem that there is always people who has to be mean to other people, which is totally unnecessary and childish <-- those people should get a real life !
Last:
I have thanked the first guys for their help, I have apologised if I have coused bad feelings wit my not so good english and still this keeps going on, but guess what, for my side, itīs now over. Please, mr "superfast" feel totally free to write what any crap you might feel like, I wonīt be here reading it, I need to build my engine to get it running and dynoed asap.
Once again: For all you who contributed any kind of help, warm thanks !
I agree with the humble note, most of us people have seen enough disagreement and bickering without substantial information to justify it, to know it is better to ignore an errant remark or gesture before it gets to far out of hand and stay focused on the point being sought from the very first post. Take the advice that meets requirements of your question and ignore the rest so that peace abounds. "Can't we all just get along"
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12:08 PM
Apr 19th, 2006
joeformula88 Member
Posts: 114 From: arnhem, the Netherlands Registered: Mar 2000
If I just ignore all the chit-chat, I think I can add from experience that the forward (1,2) cilinders are better cooled than the rear one's. I know because I had pistons custom-made for my 2.8, which weren't made properly, so they scraped the cylinder walls. Due to better cooling the number one cylinder was the only cylinder that wasn't affected. SO: Go ahead and open up the waterpassages in the gasket for the middle (1/4") and for the rear cylinders (9/32"), like is suggested in the literature. good luck!
other cooling tricks you may think of useing oil squirters from the bottom end up at the bottom of the pistons volvo turbo's use these to cool the pistons now how hard to fab up these I donot know but they do help lower temps on turbo motors
extra boat type water pumps to get extra amounts of water moving or just use them to cool other parts like the turbo or a water air intercooler to take some of the heat load off the main system note you want more flow but not a big increase in speed of flow as the coolant moveing too fast will not cool as well and you need a bigger rad and pipes or extra pipes
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 04-19-2006).]
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02:35 PM
PFF
System Bot
DRA Member
Posts: 4543 From: Martinez, Ga, USA Registered: Oct 1999
May have avoided a lot of crap if the original poster would have given details about the setup to start with, it's like asking what transmission fluid to use and not letting anyone know what transmission your running, auto or manual. Details, Details, and more DETAILS can help avoid unwanted suggestions!
By the way, I'm thinking of buying new tires for the stock rims on my other vehicle, can anyone suggest brands and sizes?
------------------ I hate to advocate weird chemicals, alcohol, violence or insanity to anyone... but they've always worked for me.
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05:34 PM
p8ntman442 Member
Posts: 1747 From: portsmouth RI Registered: Sep 2003
Damn, 3800 you SUCK. Get off your high horse. The guy came in asked a simple question, and I knew he was looking for the v6 60 bible b4 i finished his first post, then you guys make an ass out of yourselves being jerks. He didnt post anything close to insulting. who do you think you are?
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06:19 PM
I wear pants Member
Posts: 579 From: Columbus, IN Registered: Jun 2005
Mika Ruusuvuori, I would like to invite you to post over at www.realfierotech.com . There are alot of guys over there that are really into 60 degree V6s and I know alot of us would like to hear about the modifications you have made to your engine. Anyway, I hope to see you post there.
Mike didn't post anything here that wasn't true about the members. I have been here a short time and have noticed the garbage setups that most run. Junkyard parts and think they are king. Its like a contest of who can do stuff the cheapest, not who can do it the best.
I did some searching(which many of you fail to do because you are lazy) and I found dynos of his setup. I think it was around 400 hp at the wheels. He even posted videos.
Then you have Jazzman with his 120 whp 3.2 thinking he knows all. Dude you dont' know anything. You have a 15 second fiero that barely makes more hp then stock. Its quite obvious you dont' have the first clue on how to make hp so dont' go claiming you know the limits of good parts or even stock parts. You are far from making any sort of power to break stock parts why should anyone beleive one word you are saying?
3800 I suggest you get a life. You too dont' know what you are talking about. The guy has dynos and videos of his car and it looks fast and should be with 400 whp. What do you have? Post yoru vids. Post your dyno charts.
I havent' been here very long but I have noticed that dynos nor qtr miles times are accepted here. its like its just better to talk up your setup then to prove it. Its disgusting.
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07:48 PM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35467 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
Now that Delicioso mentioned a dyno, I would be interested in seeing what this highly modified engine dynoes at or at least post a link so us lazy folk don't have to search for it. We don't have too many race built engine on here, because people use these cars as daily drivers and are only looking for cheap mild performance upgrades. Not everyone here has $15,000 to put into a race engine or a place to run such an animal. People also like to see proof of people's claims of horsepower. Dynos talk, bulls**t walks. I guess Mika should have said what kind of engine he was working on to get the proper advice, otherwise some would assume it is just a stock engine.
[This message has been edited by avengador1 (edited 04-20-2006).]
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08:10 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Mika, what kind of problems are you seeing that the head gasket needs modification? Are you trying to lower cylinder temps to get a handle on detonation, run lower octane, or are you overheating??
With 500hp, I'm sure you aren't running the stock radiator. I would think the stock 2.8 water pump would be inadequate as well, it was created with the intention of cooling a 140hp engine.
why does everyone insist on him posting his numbers again. Quit being lazy and do a search. You will find his dyno numbers and videos. Geez He probably wont' come back to this thread and maybe even forum because of several jerks with burs up their asses. not that I would blame him.
Who do you think you are, anyway? You seem to have a lot of opinions in a lot of Tech threads, but I rarely see you offer any tech help, other than assurances that someone else will come along with some actual useful info. Its not your job to police the forum, PM Cliff if you have a concern or complaint.
Your first post in this thread contained no technical content. Why jump in to begin with?
Chill dude.
Hi, Thank-You, I never said it did contain any tech info--I don`t think anyone really took the time to read everything that was posted, I was simply trying to stand up for a couple of pff members. The same I would do for you guys & even the ones launching attacks right now. But I guess it doesn`t matter.
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02:00 AM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Originally posted by Fastback 86: I rarely see you offer any tech help, other than assurances that someone else will come along with some actual useful info. .
I guess I'm not the only one who has noticed this.
FYI, I don't monitor anybody. It's just that when you see something multiple times (at least 10 or more), it sticks in your memory.
quote
Originally posted by Mika Ruusuvuori: guess what, for my side, itīs now over.
Mika, I wouldn't let all of this bother you. Only 1 person started trouble here. There are over 10,000 other members on the forum.
[This message has been edited by ditch (edited 04-20-2006).]
We don't have too many race built engine on here, because people use these cars as daily drivers and are only looking for cheap mild performance upgrades. Not everyone here has $15,000 to put into a race engine or a place to run such an animal. People also like to see proof of people's claims of horsepower. Dynos talk, bulls**t walks. I guess Mika should have said what kind of engine he was working on to get the proper advice, otherwise some would assume it is just a stock engine. 
