quote Originally posted by Oreif: And here is the results: (look carefully at the middle piston)

quote Originally posted by Shaun on RFT: I am running a boosted setup, no knock sensor and no worries.

ROFLMAO, talk about knuckledragger engineeering.

Is this the same Shaunbag that talks about his superior engineering skills?

The same Shaunbag that claims that no one else knows how to build a car?

Is it the same Shaunbag that raggs on the guy who used the Dimes?

Is this the same V6 - 2 = V4 cylinder engine that Shaunbag claims he used to beat a Viper & a Z-28 & did he ever provide any proof of those kills?

How did his nylon stocking air cleaner hold up thru it all?

Boy am I ever glad he doesn't work for me.

Nice job Shaunbag,

Archie


------------------

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 11-02-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Anyone have a copy of the Chevy 60* V6 power manual? The link previously posted does not seem to work.

I just found a PDF of the 60* V6 Portion on my computer, not sure where I got it from though. What info do you need?

Edit: There's actually a few torrents available of the full manual.

------------------
www.FieroDomain.com
Over 120 Fiero Links, Articles, Images, Diagnostics

"If any car is both the parade and the rain, it is the Fiero"

[This message has been edited by Xanth (edited 11-02-2007).]

You can modify any engine but there are design limits to consider. I think that we can end this debate by stating that you could achieve far better performance from an engine swap than to attempt a power build of the 2.8L. With enough boost and mods & even if you were able to reach 300HP, factors like reliability, drivability, mileage and engine life come into the picture and should be considered. If you just want to hang a turbo on rebuilt basically stock 2.8L and run 7-8 psi of boost you can make around 200HP. With some additional mods ( headwork/porting, cam 250HP is possible but the time you finish you may have ended up spending more than what an engine swap would cost and with far less reliability, power and gas mileage to boot.

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

well the stock block can handle alot of power if you pour cement in the waterjackets. it still retains its street drivability(that was a joke). its called a hard block and thats how some sbc guys can cllaim thousands of hp on a "stock block". its good for about 1/4 mile of all out driving, then its time for a rebuild.

I am one of those people who would be perfectly happy with a solid 200 rwhp. My only objective is to have a car that's lighter, faster, and handles better than anyone I know. That means I have to beat a toyota matrix, a toyota tocoma, a volvo 850 wagon, a subaru WRX, and a 5.0 mustang.

The fiero provided that handling(with mods) and lightweight. But i need something else to handle the last two cars I mentioned. I am probably gonna turbo it. I figure 5-7 pounds of boost is safe without a knock sensor or inter cooler and should land me about 200 rwhp.
The reason I started this thread is to see if that was safe, and if I could go higher if i want to.

I heard that the 60* V6 was originally intended to be turbocharged. Anyone else hear that?

quote Originally posted by Oreif: And here is the results: (look carefully at the middle piston)

Looks like a stock piston to me. Stock pistons don't last too well with boost, any detination and they go.

As far as block HP goes something else will break first and take out the block, broken rods take nice chunks out of 2.8s.

Even in the pic, a broke piston but the block looks ok. It is also where all the head gaskets that I have seen blown, go right above that piston. probably blew a head gasket right there into that cyl. I have not read his thread but that is what it looks like.
or the extra heat may have butted the rings, pos. some det too, and poped off the top of the piston.

------------------
"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!! Boosted!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

quote Originally posted by The_Stickman2: I think I have one why?

I thought it might contain GM's recommendation for max hp. Ahhh, found it online: http://spad.sytes.net/fiero/manuals/
Same site as the FSM.

I'm looking at those pistons in the picture above and they look much different from mine. Anyway, here's a pic of mine.



Are these aftermarket? (i am not the first owner)

quote Originally posted by MordacP: I am one of those people who would be perfectly happy with a solid 200 rwhp. My only objective is to have a car that's lighter, faster, and handles better than anyone I know. That means I have to beat a toyota matrix, a toyota tocoma, a volvo 850 wagon, a subaru WRX, and a 5.0 mustang. The fiero provided that handling(with mods) and lightweight. But i need something else to handle the last two cars I mentioned. I am probably gonna turbo it. I figure 5-7 pounds of boost is safe without a knock sensor or inter cooler and should land me about 200 rwhp. The reason I started this thread is to see if that was safe, and if I could go higher if i want to. I heard that the 60* V6 was originally intended to be turbocharged. Anyone else hear that?

Hahahaha. Yeah, a 2.8 on that boost should def get you there

quote Originally posted by MordacP: I'm looking at those pistons in the picture above and they look much different from mine. Anyway, here's a pic of mine. Are these aftermarket? (i am not the first owner)

No those are stock 2.8L pistons. The pic above looks like 3.4L pistons.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: He was just posting that for attention. Actually he has 0.0hp since his bad tuning ran the motor too lean and he damaged pistons. It is a good example of how running too lean can cause severe pre-dentonation which will damage a motor quickly.

I just saw his turbo build (the link was posted in another turbo thread on here) and he has a "Sinister Performance chip" so who did that bad tune?

And he did use stock pistons, so it was just a matter of time before they went, stock pistons suck for boost.

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: I just saw his turbo build (the link was posted in another turbo thread on here) and he has a "Sinister Performance chip" so who did that bad tune? And he did use stock pistons, so it was just a matter of time before they went, stock pistons suck for boost.

I don't think it was Darth's chip, But rather the info given to him. The engine had a turbo and was fed nitrous. The person programming the chip has one set of data and the owner changes something without getting more data and burning another chip, Then the tune is bad and not neccessarily the programmers fault. We don't know if after the chip was programmed, what changes were made. Was boost increased? Was the shot of nitrous increased? Whatever it was that changed, obviously caused the engine to run lean or hot and ping itself to death.

You can hear in a few of the video's of the car on streetfire the pinging and popping of the exhaust. Pre-detonation will kill any piston if it is severe enough. If it had a knock sensor, It would have retarded the timing to reduce the pinging. If it was happening a lot, This would be a sign that the engine would need to be re-profiled so that the correct timing and fuel curves can be re-programmed to clear the problem.

If stock pistons are bad with boost, Then why not build the engine correctly to begin with? Obviously the owner knew the engine was going to have a turbo and nitrous. So is it your opinion that the engine build was a poorly designed by the owner?

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-09-2007).]

So with out being there no one can say what happened, You can't say "it was a bad tune" then say well it couldn't have been the chip that he had, since someone else burned it. Without being there no one can say. Cars break!

If you can hear a ping in a boosted engine, your already blown up. To run wild boost setups on stock GM ecu's you need to pay very close attention to a wideband, and hope for the best, or have a proper knock sensing setup, and still your hoping that it catches it. There is a reason even stock 3800's have 2 knock sensors.

quote Originally posted by sardonyx247: So with out being there no one can say what happened, You can't say "it was a bad tune" then say well it couldn't have been the chip that he had, since someone else burned it. Without being there no one can say. Cars break!

We can only guess what the actual true cause was. But, pinging is usually caused by running too lean and/or too hot. If it is running lean/hot either the engine's original tune was incorrect or the engine was modified after the last tune resulting in the failure. (which based on previous posts by the owner, the engine was modified after the chip was installed.) Either way the tune of the engine was bad, hence it was a "bad tune".

quote Originally posted by Arns85GT: The general rule of thumb for push rod GM engines for reliable streetability is 1 hp per ci. For the 3.4, in NA, this would be 207 hp, however, Oreif proved this is not strictly true. As well, the old carbureted 327 did produce 350 hp. So, the 2.8 (173ci) should be able to easily support 175 hp. In a pinch, with a well prepared engine, I think 200hp is possible. Personally, I would not take the engine that high. My own objective with a stock block is 175hp. I hope this helps. Arn

Man, that would be something else to have a 150 hp duke.

Stock pistons do fine with moderate boost, the fact that GM uses cast pistons in its forced induction engines including the Northstar 4.4L is a testament to that, it's the detonation that they don't tolerate well. I destroyed several 3.4L pistons with detonation loud enough to be heard about 100 yds away and they didn't look as bad as the one in the picture. The most important part of the piston in my engine remained intact, the ring lands, so the stock 3.4 piston is actually a pretty solid piece as long as you don't pound on it. I have on the other hand broken a 2.8L piston ring land, it took a poor tune on a 1 BAR MAP and more than a year to do it.

When pistons start showing up in pieces on turbo motors with proper tuning behind 2 BAR MAP sensors I'll show more concern. I beat on my last set for about 5 years 7-8 psi, red line revs, and 1 bar MAP sensor complete with "guest-a-tune" and an occasional clack on a hot day and 87 octane and it held until I took it out of the car. The newer the engine the more likely the metal material is sturdier from better manufacturing techniques and chemical composition. GM has to have a lot of confidence in the cast piston strength because none of the forced induction cars currently available has forged slugs. The oil squirters the engines are being equiped with do help maintain piston strength by keeping the temps down but with near 20 psi on the turbo Ecotecs cast pistons this stuff has to be tough and durable behind a proper tune.

I'd say start with low timing advance under boost and increase in 1 degree increments until the happy medium is reached.

Just to mention that the manufacturing process used to make a piston is only indirectly relative to it's strength. You could make a cast piston very strong but it would be heavier. A forged process just yields a piston that's relatively stronger for its weight, that's all. The motor designer's goal is to design a piston that's strong enough for its application, with a small reserve for tolerances and unforeseen circumstances, and is as economical as practical to produce. If GM wanted to design cast pistons that would handle 300HP out of a 2.8 with several BARs of boost they could.

JazzMan

True, but where horsepower is not demanding increased durability, longevity and extended warranties are, and there's no room for making parts without a good bit of reserve against the unforseen there. There's no need for the steel crank the 60 degree is being delivered with now relative to the past performance of the iron crank for example so someone is thinking outside of the box.

We were over boosting to around 12 PSI at launch and then controlling to a max pressure of 8.5 PSI or so.

I wouldn’t even tackle this. Much cheaper and more reliable to install a GM crate LS2 which has a lot of aftermarket support ( like MSD calibrationi) at 450 HP AND IT FITS.


Quotes from the guy who tested the limits of 60* v6's. You figure out what 8.5 psi is on a 2.8 and you will know what is safe enough to make the fiero faster than the 86 vettes. Stock 2.8 pistons were used in the Gm turbo setup, they also used the knock sensor, why do you think 85 ecms have the code for it the TGP's???? no way.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: And here is the results: (look carefully at the middle piston)

Pistondragger.

So was this retard actually at a track using race gas, or was he blending his own fuel and screwed up? I always knew he was an idiot. So his racefueled turbo fiero is still slow? I guess thats what you get for not building your own motor.

------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 11-11-2007).]

I guess as long as you're calling the "right" people @$$hats, it's ok to do that, even in violation of forum rules: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/061082.html

It's so much cooler than just that, too, because the person in question can't post anything here in his defense, which gives you free rein to talk @#%&.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-08-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Will: I guess as long as you're calling the "right" people @$$hats, it's ok to do that, even in violation of forum rules: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/061082.html It's so much cooler than just that, too, because the person in question can't post anything here in his defense, which gives you free rein to talk @#%&.

If he wasn't an asshat, he wouldn't have been banned multiple times and would then be able to speak here in his defense. I'm not going to call the pistondragger names. but I think it's hilarious that he blew his motor up.

quote Originally posted by Will: It's so much cooler than just that, too, because the person in question can't post anything here in his defense, which gives you free rein to talk @#%&.

Isn't that what he does??? He has his own forum in which he talk's "@#%&." and if you sign up there to defend yourself, Him and his "pistondraggers" edit your screen avatar and play their immature kiddie games. Now he is so desperate for attention that he had to sign up over there under my PFF screen name so he could pretend to be me. Now he's even arguing with himself by posting under my PFF screen name and his own. I actually find it quite amusing watching his own obsessions get the best of him.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 11-09-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Now he's even arguing with himself by posting under my PFF screen name and his own.

Ok, all BS aside - that's sad.

quote Originally posted by Will: I guess as long as you're calling the "right" people @$$hats, it's ok to do that, even in violation of forum rules: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/061082.html It's so much cooler than just that, too, because the person in question can't post anything here in his defense, which gives you free rein to talk @#%&.

First off, don't talk to me about forum rules when your defending "Master Tuner Shawnee-moto". He violated forum rules every chance he got. Second, that retard deserves all the ridicule and disrespect that he recieves. If he could behave himself and not act like an moron he would be able to post here and defend himself.


SIG TEST ! ! !
------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN MASTER TUNER SHAUNEE-MOTO'S JUNK

[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 11-11-2007).]

Am I defending him or am I calling you out for breaking the rules of the forum you love?

quote Originally posted by Oreif: And here is the results: (look carefully at the middle piston)

Looks like the stock 3.4 pistons end at 250whp.

I never did like nitrous.......

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Pre-dentonation will kill any piston if it is severe enough. If it had a knock sensor, It would have retarded the timing to reduce the pinging. If it was happening a lot, This would be a sign that the engine would need to be re-profiled so that the correct timing and fuel curves can be re-programmed to clear the problem.

"pre-dentonation" will not magically stop with a knock sensor. Preignition will toast your motor without you ever knowing. Detonation will be picked up by the knock sensor, and timing will retard, but it won't be able to change fueling errors caused by bad injectors or poor nitrous distribution. (again, don't like nitrous)

quote Originally posted by Oreif: If stock pistons are bad with boost, Then why not build the engine correctly to begin with? Obviously the owner knew the engine was going to have a turbo and nitrous. So is it your opinion that the engine build was a poorly designed by the owner?

Pick your option:
1) He was a cheap fiero owner
2) He was a lazy cheap fiero owner
3) He wanted to see what a stock 3.4 could take

I think it was #2.

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: "pre-dentonation" will not magically stop with a knock sensor. Preignition will toast your motor without you ever knowing. Detonation will be picked up by the knock sensor, and timing will retard, but it won't be able to change fueling errors caused by bad injectors or poor nitrous distribution. (again, don't like nitrous)

Exactly.
The point I was making was that if he had a knock sensor it would have retarded his timing which would give the engine very poor performance and at the very least reduced the severity of the detonation. The poor performance and the fact the knock sensor was picking up the knocking would indicate that something was not correct and then he could have re-tuned the engine before he pushed the engine and the physical damage occured. So once again, the failure of the engine was due to a bad tune.

I think it is # 2 as well.

P.S. My apologies for my previous mis-spelling (I edited them) and terminology errors. By "pre-detonation", I was referring to what you call "detonation". I know there is a difference between pre-ignition and detonation.

. . .
------------------
ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

[This message has been edited by FIEROPHREK (edited 11-11-2007).]

How bout you respect the rules yourself before you complain about Shaun breaking them, hypocrite?

To me it looks more like too small of a ring gap killed it, or at least it got hot enough to close up even a reasonably sized boosted ring gap. That's the more common reason than detonation is for breaking ring lands in a boosted motor.

It's been said already, but the stock 2.8 BLOCK can probably handle more power than is worth trying to get from it when most swaps will be cheaper and easier to get the same power from. That being said, I don't have the "magic number" either.

P.S. Drama is gay. It's bad enough for any person to play along, but when a vendor gets involved at taking childish potshots at anyone (quite often) that's the first vendor I WON'T buy anything from, regardless of the product. I know the same holds true for many people as well. Just food for thought.

quote Originally posted by FIEROPHREK: ohhhh noooo im so scared ! Oh you Ethug you. Good job dude How about you send a PM to Cliff ya gradeschool tattle-tale.

I couldn't have said anything that would describe you better than you described yourself with this one...

I'm a grade school tattle tale for taking my issues with you directly to you? I'm not following your logic...

quote Originally posted by Fastback 86: How bout you respect the rules yourself before you complain about Shaun breaking them, hypocrite?

Exactly.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-10-2007).]

Okay. I'm not going over there to find it though.
If you're referring to a red turbo car thread then you are correct.
Why do turbos attract all the drama? They're too cool for that, leave them alone. :P

The aluminum Bow Tie block has been proven to over 700 HP, BTW.

Hey Will you are right. My last post was in weakness, I stooped to Shaunnas level and i am better than that. We have ruined this guys thread with our bickering once again. It always seems to happen. I will edit my posts.

------------------

ARCHIES JUNK IS FASTER THAN SHAUNNA'S JUNK

Staying on topic here, the Chevy "60 Degree V6 Power Manual," which outlines how to build 60 degree engines, contains this quote early on in the book:

"Production V6 60 degree blocks are suitable for high performance street use, off roading, and limited competition applications. Production V6 blocks used in SCORE/HDRA off-road racing, for example, routinely produce over 270 horsepower and provide hundreds of miles of troublefree operation at high engine speeds."

This doesn't appear to be conjecture or shade tree mechanics making claims, but an actual resource that is available. Just my two cents.

-Gary

Hehehe... "...hundreds of miles of troublefree operation at high engine speeds."...

JazzMan

(edited to include the full quote instead of my original paraphrase, not that it affects what I meant to say at all. )

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 11-28-2007).]