Time has passed, cars have been built...

So what's the best Northstar engine conversion options for a standard-shift (5-speed Getrag) 88 Fiero?

I'm not afraid of doing a fair bit
of machine work, what do people
think of SOLID mounts for the
northstar in a road car?

I'd like to purchase an adapter
plate, and mostly a flywheel,
but can fab most everything else
(including computer, electronics
are no problem for me, though I
will go with stock if possible to
fool CA smog referees...)

Input? guys with northstar motors?

Do you like it?

How is reliability? (especially with the Getrag I am concerned...)

Would you do it agian? Do anything different?

I'm working on such a swap right now.
You're not going to want to drive a car with a solid mounted engine for very long, even with an engine as smooth as the Northstar. Polyurethane mounts such as the ones www.cwestco.com sells would be a better choice.

No engine/trans adapter plate is necessary, but some of the webbing must be removed from the bell housing to clear the Northstar starter.

Most of what you ask has been talked about here and there. A couple of threads about the electronics issues were up a couple of weeks ago; Tina posted a while back about what she had to do to break a Muncie 4spd with a 383 SBC; you can modify a V6 flywheel or buy one from www.chrfab.com . Use the search function.

The best way to do the electronics is still up in the air.

Will, I've gotta disagree on one point. My Northstar is solid mounted to the cradle and I have little if any vibration problems. I've gone to the track 6 or 7 times last year with no problem. Everything is still tight and strong.
I would deffinetely do it again!!!! Even with the Traction Control Moduel problems, there is a ton of power and torque. No reliability problems yet. It's been running for over a year now.

Will, what do you mean no adapter plate required? You're talking about using the automatic right?

check me out at: www.members.home.net/jaygrande

My 350 is also bolted directly to the cradle and the vibration is not any worse than the 4 cyl I had in the stock set up.

quote Originally posted by Jay: Will, I've gotta disagree on one point. My Northstar is solid mounted to the cradle and I have little if any vibration problems. I've gone to the track 6 or 7 times last year with no problem. Everything is still tight and strong.

quote My 350 is also bolted directly to the cradle and the vibration is not any worse than the 4 cyl I had in the stock set up.

Okay. I stand corrected.

Hi,
I have to tell you that I have driven my Northstar for 4 years now and have not had one single cradle or drivetrain problem. It is also solid mounted to a modified (My design) cradle. I have driven the car all over the place. I have also driven my car to the strip and have ran it MANY times. It is funny, I would drive my car 3 hours to get there, and watch all of these other cars that were trailered to the race get beat by me!! HA!! Then I would turn around and drive another 3 hours home and still get 24 miles per gallon. I will be going to IRP (INDY) on the 28th to race again. I will also be at Carlisle. That will be a 8 hour drive. I love my Northstar so much I built my second one and I drove that over 2000 miles to Florida and back with not a single problem. With air and cruise! I would not recommend the 5 speed on this conversion. You are just asking for trouble. I think any v-8 with the stick you are asking for trouble. (Don't flame me on that one). I am just saying from a reliability stand point, this is not a reliable option unless you are driving your car like grandma jones. I am not telling you to not do it, I am just saying do your homework and carry a spare. I have known some guys to 'baby' their stick and make it last a long time. But come on, we are building this to go fast in and have fun. I bet if we could some how get a Porsche transaxle to work(I am not familier with them) I know that they are able to hold the torque fine. That would be a great option!!! Makes my mouth water just thinking about it! I don't know. I guess we need to do some research on that one. I would love to have manual. Just need to find one that we can really drive hard without cracking into to pieces. If you have any questions I would be happy to try to answer them.

Chris Moore
ASE Master Auto Tech and Auto Instructor
1986 GT Convertible Northstar
1987 GT Nortstar
1988 GT T-TOP 3.4 5-speed
1988 GT T-TOP stock

ok. that's something that always confuses me. with out trying to pit one against the other, one says the manual tranny can handle the output of a smallblock chevy. but the northstar guys say it won't handle the northstar hp.

Well it's all about perspective. A 5-speed will live behind a N* or SBC. But if you drive the hell out of it, you'll break it. Of course, you could also break it with the stock 2.8... GM doesn't offer a 5-speeed in the 3400 right now because they don't have one strong enough. Even the 3.4TDC had a beefier Getrag (284) than the Fiero (282). Now GM is going to be conservative since they have to warranty the thing, but that's the point. Define "live" and "reliable." Personally, I want a stick shift N*. But, I'm going to drive it like I stole it, so until I know it'll live like that, I won't do it. I'm not necessarily looking for the Caddy reliability, but it would be nice. What's the point of building a 300+ HP V8 Fiero if you have to baby it! That would be shear torture.

There is one N* 5-spd Fiero that I know of in the country. I have not yet seen the car, but have conversed with the owner quite extensively. He has been driving the car for almost a year now without any problems. He does not consistantly flog it though.

Formula88 brings up an interesting point. One thing that I would like to cite is that automotive companies often claim that they can't do this or that because they won't. A good example is the new LS8 and LS6. The 6 can be purchased in 5-spd trim. The 8 is an auto only. When Lincoln was asked by Car & Driver why the 8 was not available in a 5-spd, Lincolns answer was ...they didn't have a transmission that could reliably handle the torque. I accepted that answer for a while. Then one day I realized that the Mustang and LS8 use the same motor. The Mustang is available as a 5-spd.... that is why I call BULLSH!T.

N* guys, I say go for the manual conversion. I will be working on that in a few years, after I recover from the costs of the suspension build-up on my car.

William T. Thorn, III

Will, this is very interesting to me. I always thought that the bell housing was different. Why then has everyone used adapter plates? Do you have photos? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by webbing. The reason I didn't go manual was because I was told it wouldn't bolt up. I didn't do any research, I just took their word on it. Tell more!

It is *extremely* unlikely you will be able to get an NS and manual trans past a CA BAR ref. The NS was never available with a manual trans let alone in CA.

During recertification, you have to supply a VIN for them to type in and use for scanning the ECM. It must come back and tell them that this engine is from a CA car (fed engines are not allowed in CA). They rarely check the VIN stamped on the block, but if they do, it better be from a CA car.

Next, they will print out the list of emissions equipment and *certified transmissions*. If it doesn't say manual trans, it's over and you will be sent packing. If all of the equipment is not installed, you are shot on the spot.

The test stations are a different subject. Most don't worry about the trans, but the BAR refs for recertification certainly do.

Your only chance is to put an automatic in there, get it recertified and then go back and swap in the manual. The test station usually don't care, but .........

As it was put to me by a BAR ref, "Don't make me lie, you do the lying." Certifying a 94 engine as a 93 because you claimed it was a 93 and supplied supporting information as a 93 and the emissions equipment was for a 93 means they didn't lie. It all matched. *You* lied. But asking them to look at a manual transmission and claim it's an automatic means *they* are lying and *they* won't do that. Payola aside....

The BAR ref's I've talked with really get off on these swaps and will work with you to get them through, but they won't lie.

I've been through this. Trust me.

[This message has been edited by terryk (edited 04-06-2001).]

You guys got it tough. Here in Canada they only care that you've got catalytics on your exhaust with no leaks. If it passes the emissions test and you've got all the smog stuff still on it it passes, regardless of what modifications it has. They actually even have a category for custom cars and kit cars. They don't have to meet the same standards as daily drivers. But failing a car simply because it has a different tranny than it originally came with is going overboard. What does that have to do with pollution?

Manual trans have a big effect on emissions.

As far as the swaps go, once you know what to do, it's pretty easy. You just aren't allowed to play emissions engineer. Once the swap is recertified, you can get away with alot as long as it doesn't draw too much attention during the semi-annual tests.

The trick is to learn it.

[This message has been edited by terryk (edited 04-06-2001).]

quote Originally posted by northstar87: Hi, If you have any questions I would be happy to try to answer them. Chris Moore

Chris,

Every once in while someone comes along who has built a couple of modified Fieros and starts trying to promote his ideas by putting down what others have done. Maybe the guy has installed a junkyard Turbo on a 2.8 or a 3.4 that's going to make 300 HP, or maybe the guy has taken an Old Oldsmobile Transaxle and a SBC engine and cut & welded enough to get that into a Fiero or maybe he's installed a couple of Caddie engines. But it seems that every time one of these guys feels like patting himself on the back he also feels the need to put down what others have done & had success with.

Now in several resent posts you've been attempting to convince people that there is some type of reliability problem with SBC powered Stick Shift Fieros. You've very carefully worded your statements to make sure that you said that these statements were your "opinion". That is a good thing because when someone proves you incorrect, you can fall back on that statement. I fully believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion. Your free to say anything you like, however you do others a dis-service when you ignore facts. I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing match with you, but if that is what you want then I'm up for it. However, from what I've seen your "opinions" are starting to confuse people.

First off, I'd like to say that I think your 2 cars are very nice. I've voted for them at the last 2 Fieroramas and at the Dells last year. Not my cup of tea (I like sticks and I like it simple) but IMHO they both have deserved "Best of Show" when I've seen them at the shows.

There are a couple areas, in which I'd like to clear the air.

I know you like beating your chest about having driven your cars to several shows. That is something to be proud of, however you are not the only one who believes you should drive what you build. I know you are new at the Fiero stuff & I'm sure you may not know what has happened in the past. You may know, I've been building V-8 Fieros for more than 15 years now. Two months after building my first V-8 Fiero, I drove it 2400+ miles (each way) to the Knott's Berry Farm Show in CA. Just as you are now, I was quite proud of that. That was back in the days when a SBC powered Fiero was as rare as a NStar Fiero is now. In the 14 years since, I've driven V-8 Fieros to 7 different shows in Southern CA. The wife & I drove 13 days and 5800 miles to the FOCOA convention in LasVegas. We made a Vacation out of it and toured the Southwest on the way out to that show, that was in August in 100*+ temperatures & it was a STICK (Isuzu) shift 325HP V-8 Fiero. Except for some bad food, we had no problems. And the trunk area was unmodified and we got over 25MPG just like you. The Carlisle Kit Car shows started 6 or 7 years before the Fieros started meeting there, except for last year, I've driven V-8 Fieros to that show every year. I've driven to many shows in FL, TN, KY, IN, MI, TX etc. thru the years. I've driven stick shift V-8 Fieros to 5 Kit Car Magazine "Run & Gun" events &, like you, I didn't like being beat by Trailer Queens. So I can understand why you're proud of your little trips. As many here know, my wife has MS and can no longer ride for more than a few miles in a Fiero. We determined that the only way she could come to some of the shows with me is if we bought a truck & trailer. So, we've been towing to some shows since Carlisle of last year. I figure that if 14 years of driving V-8 Fieros to shows doesn't prove their reliability then nothing will. Your trips to a few shows is good, however you have a lot of driving to do before you can use that as a reason to critique the reliability of certain V-8 powered stick shift Fieros.

Now you're saying that the Fiero stick shift transmission can't handle the power of a V-8 engine. I've been doing V-8 swaps for 15 years now. I've sold more than 1400 kits and I've built more than 160 V-8 Fieros myself. Out of the 43 V-8 Fieros that I've built for myself 40 of them used the ISUZU 5-speed. Of the 1400 kits sold more than 1200 of them were stick shift kits. EVERY one of my customers (& anyone who visits my web site) has my home address and phone number. There are more than 200 V-8 Fiero drivers on various Fiero related Internet forums. If there was a problem with stick shift Fiero transmissions being able to handle a V-8, don't you think that there would be a ground swell of V-8 Fiero kit customers joining you in your attempt to trash stick shift V-8 Fieros? By your own words you've built 2 NStar swaps and both of them were automatics. I'm here to tell you that you are wrong & that you have no basis in fact for your statements about stick shift V-8 Fieros. In fact, you were at Fierorama last year, you saw a row of no less than 15 V-8 Fieros lined up. One of them was an automatic, all the rest were stick shift cars. They had SBC engines that included 270 HP LM1's & 355 HP ZZ4's & Corvette LT1's. I would DARE YOU to tell any one of those guys that they drive "like grandma jones". Right now, I have 6 running & driving V-8 Fieros at my shop. 4 of them have the Isuzu 5-speed transmissions, one has a Getrag & one has the V-6 4-speed. I would put any one of them up against a NStar for reliability, gas mileage, performance, ease of assembly & total cost, anytime.

Now you can continue this into a Flame war. Or you can look at all the evidence that exists that proves you are wrong & accept it.

You're going to make a lot of enemies if you keep telling people they drive "like grandma jones".

BTW, the only "grandma jones" I know drives a NStar Caddie with an automatic.

Please don't consider this post a Flame, because it's not. And please don't think I'm concerned about the competition because the guys who are willing to pay you $16 to $18K for a NSTAR installation with a used engine are not the same people who buy a kit from me and install a new SBC crate engine for half that price.

I'd like to personally invite you to my shop on the 21st. For my V-8 swap seminar, you may learn something but for sure you'll have fun. And I Guarantee you a ride in a V-8 Fiero that will make you reconsider your "grandma jones" comment.

So, my question is.... Why would you ignore all the facts, and declare the getrag too weak to use with a V-8?

Archie

That must have struck a nerve. I see both of your points but...I must say firsty, I put the northstar in my car for under $8000 Canadian (including the engine and tranny). That is considerably lower than a crate engine. Second: The reason I went with a Northstar was to be different. As of Today I am still the only one in Canada (That I know of) to have a running Northstar powered car. Archie, I respect you alot. I've seen your stuff. But it all boils down to preference. I don't think Northstar87 was attacking you personally(unless everyone knows something that I don't). It is a matter of opinion. I went with the auto because it came with my engine and because i didn't want the expense of adapter plates and custom flywheels, not because I drive like a grandma. Let's get back to the subject, Can you put a stick shift on the Northstar without the adapter plate. If so how and with what flywheel? What about axles? I've got Cadillac axles and brake components. How do you adress the full size axles with the 5 speed tranny?

quote Originally posted by Jay: Let's get back to the subject, Can you put a stick shift on the Northstar without the adapter plate. If so how and with what flywheel? What about axles? I've got Cadillac axles and brake components. How do you adress the full size axles with the 5 speed tranny?

The bolt patterns of the Fiero trans. & the NStar engine are the same, so you should be able to bolt the transmission on. I'm sure the FW would have to be fabricated. I know that Red Roberts of McLoud did one for someone in OR about a year ago. I think you'd have to use Fiero size axles.

I think I have enough evidence that the Getrag transmission can hold up to a V-8. However, I've also seen a post that indicated that you had to grind away some of the Transmissions' internal webbing, which is part of the transmission case to clear the NStar starter. If this is true I would be concerned about the integrity of that transmission case. Anytime you grind or cut away material of a casting like that, you are taking a chance of weakening the remaining case. After all those internal ribs were put in there for a reason, for strength or for support. Removing material not only removes something that some engineer deemed necessary but it also gives rise to stress risers. Stress risers turn into cracks and cracks can be fatal. If I was working on a kit for the NStar/Getrag conversion (and I'm not about to) & If the starter did in fact have a clearance issue with the transmisssion case, then I'd probally design an adapter plate or spacer to move the trans. back far enought to clear the starter issue.

Hope this helps, just my thoughts.

Archie

If that is the case, can a different perhaps smaller starter be used instead of the stock one. I'm asking because I've never had to modify this kind of stuff before. In fact this Northstar was the first conversion that I've ever done on any type of car. I've learned alot about my car, and I'm glad i did it. You really know when your car is acting up or even running correctly when you do the work yourself, very satisfying.

shelby used olds aurara[n*] with a stick in his new S-1 ask them about cluch and flywheel that they use in it.he used a after market F I controler to.

There is a guy in Yorkton Saskatchewan named Dave Tamperton that has an 87 GT with an N* , he has had it for 3+ years , his car was finished about the same time John normans car was done. The car looks like crap , beat to hell from what I have seen , it's his daily driver winter and summer(don't ask em why) he is an engineer with Peebles machine shop in Yorkton

Jonathan McCreery

Hi all, wow, thanks for the wealth of informative replies. Archie, I ahve seen your kits, and the engineering is great, GM should have done this, and if they wanted do all they would need is to licence your kit.

If you DID make a northstar (or other OHC V8) conversion kit, I would buy it in a second. However the complexity is somewhat more than an SBC swap.

I too have heard relibility speculations/issues about the 5-speed trannys, and don't understand why myself, unless like you mentioned, the "webbing" must be cut a great deal (as you know from your water pump mods, it's the degree and location of cuts and metal removal that matters, not wether it's done or not.) I seem to get the feeling that it's not so much an issue of the getrag shattering, but of electronics (either you'd need to fake an connected automatic transmission, or build an ECU entirely from scratch and/or use a racing type 3d fixed fuel map ala motorcycle injection. this last option I will probalyl choose.)

Back to technical issues, what about different starter options? The engine amazingly bolts up (yay!) but what are the differences in flywheel bolt pattern and main PTO crank position relative to a clutch disc?

Also, what does the list think of using

Lastly, I know this is a heavily debated topic, but what fluid do you big-torque V8 guys use in your transmissions that have many miles on them with your "distinctly not grandma jones" driving style?

Thanks much everyone, the wealth of information here is certinly seting me up with the specific knowledge I need to make a decision here.

In the end, it's all about driving and enjoying our cars, and who knows, maybe someday a drive in my northstar powered, 5-speed 88 Formulay with Ttops will let someone fall in love with the Fiero for the first time!

Best!
Ben.

This is intresting, aparently MasterCraft (Boat maker) has adapted the Northstar engine into it's line of Maristar boats...

Boats don't have automatic trannys... (rather a 1.46:1 gear reduction set, and propeller/jet-drive...

Hrm... Wonder what they do to the ECU, it's most likely stock, as it retains the limp-home mode in event of total cooling system failure.
http://www.mastercraftboats.com/showroom/1999/maristar/maristar_power.htm

Very intresting, pieces are begining to fall together here...

I've never done a N* swap, and probably never will, but I may have some info that will help you guys.
This starter issue sounds very much like the same thing we run into with the bigger cadillac 4.9 pushrod engines. No webbing needs to be removed, just a notch made in the edge of the bellhousing to clear the nose of the starter. By using a high torque gear reduction starter, you can eliminate trans modifications. the gear reduction starter does not have a large nose to support the pinion shaft.

That looks like it takes some strength out of the case!

------------------
Jon Lagler
'87 GT
4.9 liter V8 Testarossa Spyder (under construction)

Oh boy... I go away for a couple of days and look what happens...

Webbing:

I'm not going to grind the webbing out; I will machine it out with a mill. I've taken the transmission apart to replace teh differential bearings and possibly a couple of others. The case half will easily bolt down to a mill table. I will weld a tubing section in place of the webbing. It won't be a full circumference; it will have enough cut out of the side to allow the starter to mesh with the flywheel.

Starter:

Nothing except the Aurora uses a stater like the N*. Unless you want to go to a LOT of trouble to mount one in the conventional location, or do a lot of machining on the block to mount a conventional starter in the N* location, you don't have an alternative. A conventional starter may not even fit in the N* location without interfering with cooling jacket passages, etc.

Stickshift trans strength:

Archie dealt with this in typical Archie style. What I will say is that Tina managed to destroy a Muncie 4 speed with her 383 SBC after 1/2 hour of continuous burn outs. If it takes an engine with 400+ ftlbs of torque that long to break this transmisison, I think the Getrag will hold up just fine.
Check out these two threads: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/008638.html https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/005209.html

Stickshift Alternatives:

The VW 02A transaxle is nothing inspiring in stock form, and would probably not survive one full throttle run with a N*. However there are two 6 speed conversions for this transaxle: one from Quaife (www.quaifeamerica.com) good for 275+ ftlbs, and one from Stealth Racing (www.stealthracing.co.uk) good for 400+ ftlbs (EIP tuning uses this trans with 600 HP turbo VR6 engines).
When I have time and funds (maybe late this year) I will work on putting this trans into a Fiero.
An example of this transmission suitable for a V8 swap is going to be between 3500 and 5000 USD. Rebuildable core: ~1000 USD; 6 speed kit: 2000 pounds; Torsen LSD: 1000-1500 USD. I have no idea what the swap will cost, but it will need an adapter plate, new trans and engine mount brackets, and new shift cable linkage.

Flywheel:

I've modified a V6 flywheel, but I wouldn't recommend that for everyone. www.chrfab.com has flywheels. I'm going to call the Fiero shop next week and see if their aluminum flywheel can be had with a N* bolt circle. The N* bolt circle is 8 bolts (2.8 is 6 bolts) I don't remember the exact dimensions right now, but the N* circle is bigger than the V6 cirlce.

Electronics:

Like I said, the best way of doing the electronics, by far the hardest part of the swap, is still up in the air. I'm talking with a guy at GM Powertrain and learning new things every day.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Archie:
[B] Chris,

Every once in while someone comes along who has built a couple of modified Fieros and starts trying to promote his ideas by putting down what others have done. Maybe the guy has installed a junkyard Turbo on a 2.8 or a 3.4 that's going to make 300 HP, or maybe the guy has taken an Old Oldsmobile Transaxle and a SBC engine and cut & welded enough to get that into a Fiero or maybe he's installed a couple of Caddie engines. But it seems that every time one of these guys feels like patting himself on the back he also feels the need to put down what others have done & had success with.

Mr. Archie,
Are you trying to say that I knock people on their accomplishments? I really think you don't know me very well. I am interested in anything that deals with Fieros and cars in general. I am one of the biggest Fiero fans out there and would help anyone with anything. I "DARE YOU" to ask any Fiero person about me. NIFE members, Michigan Fiero Club members, FOCOA members, and many more. Go for it.

Chris Moore
ASE Master Auto Tech and Auto Instructor
1986 GT Convertible Northstar
1987 GT Northstar
1988 GT T-TOP 3.4 5 speed
1988 GT T-TOP stock

Wow , Chris you have been busy posting!! I for one can vouch for 2 things you mentioned

1) you certianly don't drive your car easily under any circumstances.

2) You and I have talked about the cost of you doing a N* conversion to my car on several occasions and it's always hovering around the $10,000 mark.

I have heard good things about V8 archies kit , but you can't overlook the fact that the Caddies tranny is designed for the motor , as far as the ecm , motor and tranny are concerned their still in a caddy , The ability for the caddy motor to run hot is also a big plus facotr. If you search the forum lots of people have problems with the SBC cooling.

The Northstar has it's problems too (electronics), but i'm sure you (Chris) and Mr. Lingenfelter will have that sorted out soon. If a drag racer/ tuner / god like John Lingenfelter is impressed with the level of Chris's skill in converting his car to a northstar I think we can drop the thought that chis is just some backyard yocal with a welder.

Jonathan McCreery

Can't we all just get along? I'm pissed that the track was cancelled due to rain today. Wanted to see what the northstar would do with the new exhaust and shorter belt. Hey northstar87 you never answered me back about the Traction Control. Do you need the entire car or just the ECM and e-prom? E-mail me with the details.

------------------

What have we learned here folks?
1) Archie builds good small block Fieros
2) Chris builds good northstar Fieros
Yay for Archie and Yay for Chris.

I don't know a thing about Archie, since I haven't had a chance to talk to him much, but I know he has successfully built many cars.
On the other hand, even though Chris hasn't built over 1000 cars, he has successfully done something a little different that is reliable and fun.

You guys both have so much talent, just keep on working on your own thing and don't worry about what someone else thinks of it.

------------------
Lisa
86 violet pearl 4 speed GT- 17 in. rims, lowered, cold-air,
AOL IM: FieroLisa

FieroLisa's Website

Tarheels Fieros Website

Wow...... 8 responses by one person to one post, that has to be some kind of record.

All those words and you really didn't say anything.

You say Gm engineers would not use the Getrag with a V-8, is that true? WHO CARES? You totally ignore the actual on the road record of V-8's in stick shift Fieros. If a group of engineers were evaluating that situation today, they would take the current record into consideration in their final evaluation. But not you, you totally ignore the real world record in your analysis.

Gas mileage...... sure you'd like to compare your fuel injected engine & OD transmission to a carbureted engine. But let's compare apples to apples. In the thread you refer to https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/008642.html everyone of those cars, except one, has either a carbureted engine &/or a non-overdrive transmission. ONLY ONE of them (Winston Ojeda) has a fuel injected engine and an OD transmission & his mileage compares favorably to yours. (Remember the first liar doesn't have a chance, & his mileage claim was made before he ever knew he was in a MPG competition with you).

50 miles at 50 MPH.... Who Cares?..... Even Cadillac dropped that line of advertizing in favor the "On Star" (or whatever) system. A reasonable person wouldn't drive their car if they knew there was something wrong with it. They would pick up the cell phone and call the autoclub just like Cadillac advertizes now. When you go to that "Auto Instructor's Update seminar" ask your instructors how many would recommend a 50/50 drive without fluids as opposed to a call to the auto club. A maximum education doesn't always mean a maximum knowledge.

Northstar .......reliable.... I never said the Northstar was unreliable, I said I'd be happy to compare any of my current cars in reliability. You need to read the statements more carefully before responding.

You say I don't know you........ I'm afraid we all know you much better now 8 times over.

Tim Allen drives what?...... What does that have to do with anything?..... Is that his only car?

It's hard to believe that someone who makes these kinds of statements to back up his position has all the education & certifications you claim to have. I'm just a backwoods uneducated bumkin, I bow to your superior knowledge on everything...... & if Tim Allen agrees with you, I'm convinced.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: You say Gm engineers would not use the Getrag with a V-8, is that true? WHO CARES? You totally ignore the actual on the road record of V-8's in stick shift Fieros. If a group of engineers were evaluating that situation today, they would take the current record into consideration in their final evaluation. But not you, you totally ignore the real world record in your analysis. Archie

You make some good points, Archie, but I have to disagree with you on this one.
The Getrag, Muncie and Isuzu transaxles have been successful behind V8's because they have been driven by, statistically speaking, a small and rather quirky sample of the population; a group of people who drive hard, but do not abuse their machines. GM has to sell to the whole population, which includes people who will put a 150 shot and drag radials on the car the same day they buy it, then go to the track that weekend and burn 2 bottle of NOS with 5000 RPM clutch dumps and 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear powershifts that leave dozen foot long black marks on the track. I don't think any of the current GM transverse transaxles could last through a 36 month warantee when subjected to that kind of treatment.

You have to deal with deceleration fuel cutoff and air injection is just about the only way to handle it with a manual.

What you use in CA is simple. Use what came with the engine. Dual O2's? Then use dual O2's. A different cat can be used, but if air injection was used (and it isn't on the 3800SC), then you have to have a cat with AI.

So far, they've only used the idle/high RPM tests, no IM240 treadmill for recerts.

Other than them flat out being braindead, a manual trans 3800SC will not be recertified.

Funny, but a manual trans LT1 on a Getrag would pass.

I will take an Archie sbc conversion over a N* any day of the week. For all its great technology, The N* was still designed for a luxury car and the HP rating is most unimpressive in stock form. I haven't seen a whole lot of performance upgrades for that engine.

Archie, buddy, how you coming with an LS1 conversion? We're counting on you big guy.