Mr Bitter, you not making a valid, thought-out argument again. You're trying to make an argument that you hope is true. Unemployment has not gone up more than POINT 2 % over the past 3-4 years. People ARE NOT LOSING their jobs like you think and thus making it a contributing factor to the housing fallout. There is no statistical data that you can use to back this up, Mr Bitter.
Come back when you have a clear, thought-out, legit and factual argument, PLEASE!
I was lucky when I had my stroke I had enough put away to last more than a year before I got behind on my home loan and it was a regular loan.
Luckily I didn’t loose it, others would have.
There are more reasons than an ARM that people get behind on home loans Ace, a lot.
We have several members right here in the last year that I can remember that have had injuries, life changing disabilities, and more.
But, these are not the reasons for the housing market today. There has always been these issues. They're "non-issues" to a housing market. They're "built-in" to a housing market.
You loose a leg, after you leave the military, so you are not eligible for a military disability.
Just how long can you pay your present bills without any income.
Just be sure disability even like I get takes 6 months before you are even eligible for it.
Then at least another year before you will ever see any of it.
Can you last that long ace?
And you will get denied the first time, and the second time, I can guaranty you that so now that year and a half has now turned into 2 years with no income.
Can you last that long ace and still keep your home and cars?
And you have to live, go to doctors, buy food, can you do all that ace and still keep your house?
See this is what I am trying to tell you ace not everyone who defaults on a loan is because it was an ARM.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Steve, go research on google what percentage of disabilities is contributing to the mortgage meltdown. 2,3,5% max? Probably not even that. Like I said, these are "built into" the housing market". There's a reason that disability insurance is offered and sold on mortgages.
And you believe everything the government tells you right ace, they have never lied to you ever right.
Unemployment benefits only last so many weeks, then nothing. Then you are no longer on the unemployment %s.
You make this sound so simple, “The government says we are doing just peachy.”
Well we are not, even good old King George is finally having to admit it.
What do you think they are going to do, say we are in a recession and watch it turn worse because people will then stop spending even more than they have now.
And ace I am not just talking about disabilities, lost jobs, Deaths of a family member is all it take sometimes to loose a home.
There are many, many more reasons than you are thinking.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
I mean jesus effing christ in a coke can... it's the same people barfing out the same exact bullcrap thread after thread after thread. You guys just infect thread after thread. Why not just keep it all in one nice neat turd and reconstitute the economy thread?
And you believe everything the government tells you right ace, they have never lied to you ever right.
Unemployment benefits only last so many weeks, then nothing. Then you are no longer on the unemployment %s.
You make this sound so simple, “The government says we are doing just peachy.”
Well we are not, even good old King George is finally having to admit it.
What do you think they are going to do, say we are in a recession and watch it turn worse because people will then stop spending even more than they have now.
And ace I am not just talking about disabilities, lost jobs, Deaths of a family member is all it take sometimes to loose a home.
There are many, many more reasons than you are thinking.
What fuking part of LOSE vs LOOSE didn't you fuking understand?
What part of your post relates to the title of the post:
Foreclosures at record as household wealth falls
----------------------------------
We aren't at a record foreclosure rate because mysteriously people are dying at a faster rate or people are becoming disabled at an alarming rate or EVEN people are LOOSING their job at an alarming rate.
Your argument just headed south to the drunken, bitter, ignorant fuk at a low-class bar looking for an argument or a fist fight about anything.
Come back when you have a logical argument, Mr Bitter
Like the CCR song says, it's been coming for some time. Just think about it, at least us older guys, can you remember a time when so many basically young couples (many with kids) got huge new homes like they did for what, the last ten years or more. I mean these people were not buying the 'starter homes' they should have and then move up as they could afford it. Nope, they went right to big 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 sqr ft or bigger exspenive beyond-their-reach houses.
You can blame the banks if you want with their tricky mortages etc.and they do have it coming. However, I think the blame also needs to fall upon others like: the parents and education system, especially the high schools. There's more to getting young people ready to go into the world (and such should be priority #1) than teaching them dates when this or that happend. Why are such a topics like 'how to buy a house, understanding loans, the dangers of credit cards, etc, etc' not classes you must take and MUST pass? And lets not forget the ones most at fault, the young buyers of those huge homes. What on earth made you think it was NOT beyound your means. Did your parents start out like that, I doubt it. Didnt your parents and/or friends warn you that you may be getting in over your head, likely someone did. The ones I feel for are those that did buy true starter homes (1,100 - 2,000 sqr ft etc) , had no one warn them and just did not comprehend how bad the loan was that they signed.
As for older couples doing the same, you had to know better! But them I guess I'm all wet becuase it seems these days one is not supose to be responsible one's own actions. Spill hot coffee on yourself, sue the dinner. Buy a 16 room mansion in a pricy area way beyound your means (and likely your needs) and then cry foul when it all falls apart. I'm sure a lot you think I'm way out of line, so what.
As said before, even without a "crisis" when you have more homes being bought than anytime in history and personal home ownership at an all time high it only figures you would have record foreclosures just by the numbers. Obviously in some areas it is way worse BUT you must also consider the doom and gloom criers (news with an agenda) and the folks trying to achieve political gain by playing on fear as a factor in perpetuating the downturn.
Homes will go back up and more just as soon as they are done with us.
[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 03-08-2008).]
I'm not trying to kick anyone when they are down. I've lived a pretty reckless life at times but money and credit is one thing I've been fairly responsible with.
When I graduated college my lease was up on my apt. My g/f (wifey now) were living together and needed to move to KC. We looked a some apts and didn't see anything we liked for the money. We got approved through country wide for $75K. We were both making $10 per hour then (1999). We borrowed $1200 from her parents for closing costs and bought a two bedroom ranch in Independence, MO for 50K. I worked on that house 4 years and sold it for 70K.
We bought a 120K house in the burbs and with the money we had made off the sale of the old house paid off the closing costs and some other bills. I see couples all the time that want to start in the job market, have the nice house and new cars, have the kids and dog and all that other stuff. It takes work to get there! Start out small, increase in size and value as you build equity and move on.
I'm no financial advisor but I know what I can and can't afford. When we bought the first house preapproved for 75k i thought ok lets look for a 50k house. when we bought the second one preapproved for 175k we bought a 120k house. To me its all about sales. They don't care if you can afford a house or a car or any material crap you can buy. These people are out to sell a product for the most they can. Its not their fault if you buy it.
I think that home ownership is one of the best things a person can do. Working on your house. Mowing the lawn. I think it builds pride in a person. Everyone should be able to enjoy that but you need to start out with that "fixer uper" house. Learn how to do some electrical and plumbing work. Spend some money on paint and wood. Learn.
Hey when you can’t find fault with someone argument simply divert it by saying they are stupid, can’t spell. Ace you are wrong,
So this means nothing then? People are just giving up looking for work.
The unemployment rate actually dipped slightly from 4.9 percent to 4.8 percent, as 450,000 people left the labor force for any number of reasons. Economists thought many people probably gave up looking for work.
From this article, where our moron Pres said,
"Losing a job is painful, and I know Americans are concerned about our economy; so am I," said President Bush. "It's clear our economy has slowed."
Is this man out of touch with reality or just plain drunk or stupid?
Dangerous Cracks Appearing in Job Market 
Saturday March 8, 6:42 AM EST
WASHINGTON (AP) — Dangerous cracks in the nation's job market are deepening. Employers slashed jobs by the largest amount in five years and hundreds of thousands of people dropped out of the labor force — ominous signs that the country is falling toward a recession or has already toppled into one. For the second straight month, nervous employers got rid of jobs nationwide. In February, they sliced payrolls by 63,000, even deeper than the 22,000 cut in January, the Labor Department reported Friday. The grim snapshot of the country's employment climate underscored the heavy toll the housing and credit debacles are taking on companies, jobseekers and the economy as a whole. "It sounds like the recession bell is ringing for the U.S. economy, although it is still faint," said Stuart Hoffman, chief economist at PNC Financial Services Group.
And I suppose when I said oil would stay over $100 a barrel I was wrong about that to.
Oil Rally May Be Economy's Undoing
Saturday March 8, 5:36 AM EST
NEW YORK (AP) — Preoccupied the last few months with shrinking credit and a slumping economy, Wall Street has all but ignored the relentless rise in oil prices that has taken a barrel of crude to a once-unthinkable $106.
Ace they are all related, the housing market is being affected by the price of oil. The oil prices are being affected by the US markets, dollar falling, because of the fed lowering the interest rates.
You are wrong and just refuse to admit it.
Hey it’s great to be you and right all the time, even if it is only in your own mind.
To blame just one segment of the people for the housing collapse is ignorant. They all had a hand in it, many more at fault than others, but most of the real problem is greed.
Greedy Bankers who weren’t making enough with regular loans. Greedy realtors who kept saying things like, “ Homes can only increase in value.” Greedy people who bought homes believing what the educated greedy Bankers and realtors told them.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
NO! They are not related. Once again, YOU'D LIKE TO THINK they're related, but they ARE NOT related. They are related in your own little mind. (Which seems full of paranoia and burnt out cells more than anything else.)
The middle portion of your post=Bitterness.
The last part of the post.... Yes, they all had a part in it. I never said they didn't all have a part in it. We disagree on who was the bigger part of the problem.
Off this Topic......You think there will be a recession of "biblical proportions" (That'd be a depression, wouldn't it?) Most economists say that if there is a recession, it will be a minor recession lasting two quarters. (That would be just enough to be called a recession and then you're out of it.) Mr Bitter, you'd have 3 months of saying, "I told you so." and then the rest of of us that didn't worry about a recession would have years to state it was not even really a blip on the screen in our economy.
[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 03-08-2008).]
Originally posted by Red88FF: Obviously in some areas it is way worse BUT you must also consider the doom and gloom criers (news with an agenda) and the folks trying to achieve political gain by playing on fear as a factor in perpetuating the downturn.
Looks like the chimp in charge agrees with the "doom and gloom" sayers.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- President Bush said Friday that "it's clear our economy has slowed," hours after a government report showed a decline in payrolls for the second straight month.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 03-08-2008).]
Greedy realtors who kept saying things like, “ Homes can only increase in value.” Greedy people who bought homes believing what the educated greedy Bankers and realtors told them.
This is the one of the main causes of our housing boom here. Every day the realtors association release numbers predicting huge gains in house prices. They play on peoples fear generating panic by telling people that if they wait on the side lines any longer, their dreams of home ownership will be be unrealized as the market runs away from them. They tell people that even if they feel they can't afford it, to still buy now or they will find themselves in an even worse situation later. After all, everyone knows, housing ALWAYS appreciates. :rollseyes:
Even though our local economy hasn't changed at all in the past five years, and the average income has actually fell by nearly five percent since 2001, housing for some reason has increased almost 120% in the past two years. People are shelling out 350,000 for a bungalow in need of work, because they have been told if they don't buy now, the same house COULD be upwards of 500,000 in a couple of years. It's almost criminal to watch, and all these greedy SOB's who have worked to artificially inflate the market should be held liable when things inevitably take a nose dive.
[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 03-08-2008).]
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- President Bush said Friday that "it's clear our economy has slowed," hours after a government report showed a decline in payrolls for the second straight month.
This was a self fulfilling prophecy by design. Scare the hell out of everyone till they stop spending money and wallah!, couldn't happen any other way.
He also says the outlook is good. We did how many pages of this last time?
NO! They are not related. Once again, YOU'D LIKE TO THINK they're related, but they ARE NOT related.
Yes they are very much related... albeit second cousins but they are indeed related.
Energy costs are king of everything across the board. More money spent on energy means less money to spend on other things like houses, cars, food, new Chinese made crap etc. Anytime you increase "a" cost factor like fuel it dramatically affects everything else in the economic spectrum.
Same with ARMs if you dramatically increase interest rates it affects nearly everything. Though the impact is not as much as energy can and does, it still has a cooling affect on the overall economy depending how many people are being effected by the sudden increase.
Energy effects nearly everyone except the morbidly wealthy but they can absorb more loss than the average person which buys more time to come up with a new strategy for money making... like short selling stocks.
Yes they are very much related... albeit second cousins but they are indeed related.
Energy costs are king of everything across the board. More money spent on energy means less money to spend on other things like houses, cars, food, new Chinese made crap etc. Anytime you increase "a" cost factor like fuel it dramatically affects everything else in the economic spectrum.
Same with ARMs if you dramatically increase interest rates it affects nearly everything. Though the impact is not as much as energy can and does, it still has a cooling affect on the overall economy depending how many people are being effected by the sudden increase.
Energy effects nearly everyone except the morbidly wealthy but they can absorb more loss than the average person which buys more time to come up with a new strategy for money making... like short selling stocks.
I can agree with you to an extent, Bill. Bill, they may even be first cousins.However, in Mr Bitter's mind, the mortgtage meltdown is DIRECTLY related to Joe Blow losing his job or John Doe lost his overinflated house because he's paying more for gas in his car. It isn't a direct relation whatsoever!
This sounds like the only ones you are blaming are those who took the loans out to me, but then I don’t have an education like you ace.
quote
Originally posted by aceman: Mr Bitter, Do you complain about a car dealership? They do the same damn things. People go out and get cars they really can't afford. Repos happen every day. We all look at the people that get their car repo-ed as idiots. Same thing with a house. Nothing is hidden in these mortgage contracts!
And a car, except for a very, very select number will never, ever increase in value.
No one ever says buy now they are only going to go up in value when you are buying a car.
They did all this time about buying a home.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
This was a self fulfilling prophecy by design. Scare the hell out of everyone till they stop spending money and wallah!, couldn't happen any other way.
He also says the outlook is good. We did how many pages of this last time?
You seem to be thinking that people have money to spend... they don't and thats what this thread is about. The writing is on the wall and has been there for over a year now. Between energy and shelter costs people just dont have the money they once had to spend on cheap Chinese made junk which is a problem in and of itself. Then factor in other miscellaneous and "trivial" things like a declining dollar and you have a recipe for total collapse.
Typically throughout history, governments and policy makers have been very slow to react to the "concerns" of the people they serve. Thats where the term "tell the king the sky is falling" comes from. The king cares less about what his peons are saying until they request a meeting with his excellency... torches and pitchforks in hand. Then it suddenly becomes an issue that must be taken into consideration.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 03-08-2008).]
Dillusional Mr Bitter, Houses will ALWAYS increase in value. (Well, except mobile homes) Stop painting a little corner of the picture and you'd see that.
Everyone but you saw and understood the analogy I used between a car dealership and the home buying experience. That analogy just couldn't get a seat in your brain. Too much paranoia and broken seats inside the brain for that analogy to sit down.
Dillusional Mr Bitter, Houses will ALWAYS increase in value. (Well, except mobile homes) Stop painting a little corner of the picture and you'd see that.
Everyone but you saw and understood the analogy I used between a car dealership and the home buying experience. That analogy just couldn't get a seat in your brain. Too much paranoia and broken seats inside the brain for that analogy to sit down.
Can you ever discuss anything with anyone that disagrees with you without trying to degrade them?
Is that beyond your educated level?
Did you or did you not make this statement?
quote
Originally posted by aceman: Nothing is hidden in these mortgage contracts!
That right there is what I was trying to point out to that educated mind of yours.
That shows that you are saying the only ones at fault in this are those who took out those mortgages, not the bankers, not the realtor, no one but the people who bit into the proverbial apple to try and get their piece of the American Dream of owning a home.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Originally posted by aceman: I can agree with you to an extent, Bill. Bill, they may even be first cousins.However, in Mr Bitter's mind, the mortgtage meltdown is DIRECTLY related to Joe Blow losing his job or John Doe lost his overinflated house because he's paying more for gas in his car. It isn't a direct relation whatsoever!
They are all related. When the economy cools, large business (particularly CEOs who like multi million dollar bonuses) who have stock holders are concerned about profit margins so they "scale back" on "frivolous" things and cheapen the labor pool. Why pay someone 13 per hour when you can pay them 10 to do the same job? Why pay someone health benefits when you dont have to? Thats where the unions come into play and force corps to maintain salaries.. even increase them during "lean periods" such as this.
All told it "cheapens" the labor pool to the point of starving the economy as a whole. By giving less money to the people there is less money in circulation which exacerbates the problem even more.
Large corporations with lots of cash can take their time. They can slash and burn the workforce without suffering catastrophic losses and even if they do lose a mint... they have enough cash to do it. The bigger the corporation the more it effects the overall economy.
Simply put the economy is nothing more than people spending money. Take away more money (or force it to be concentrated on only a few necessities) by forcing the people to pay more in one or two areas which are necessities then not increase wages to keep up with "frivolous" spending on nonessential junk from China... you have a decline in the making. Eventually corporations will come around but it takes a very long time for them to "bite the bullet" and get off their mine mine mine more more more asses and give their peons some spending money so they can get it back later on.
Ever play Monopoly?
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 03-08-2008).]
Steve, what is your problem with somebody saying that they should have read the contract because ALL the information was right there for them to make THEIR decision based upon those facts? Yes, it is ultimately the buyers fault.
I guess the government nanny needs to hold your hand every time you make a financial move.
He needs someone educated to help him make a decision. Thereby, in the future he can blame the educated person for screwing him because he's too stupid to understand things.
Originally posted by Red88FF: No, it is about "Foreclosures at record as household wealth falls"
Same thing. "they don't [have money] and thats what this thread is about." why the hell do you think forclosures happen? Because people just want to lose their home for fun and laughs?
quote
The vast majority of people DO have money to spend and are doing fine.
Simply put If the majority of people had money to spend the reports would be opposite from what is being indicated.
Again.. the economy is nothing more than people spending money.. seems to me the vast majority of people are cutting back on spending because they have to, not because they want to.
Given the choice, people will spend money on things they need before they spend it on what they want which is the "life blood" of the economy. They will spend it because they have to, not because they want to but if jobs and wages dont start increasing to counter the inflation... better tighten that belt another notch and plan on bunkering down for a long dry summer.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 03-08-2008).]
Simply put If the majority of people had money to spend the reports would be opposite from what is being indicated.
Again.. the economy is nothing more than people spending money.. seems to me the vast majority of people are cutting back on spending because they have to, not because they want to.
Given the choice, people will spend money on things they need before they spend it on what they want which is the "life blood" of the economy. They will spend it because they have to, not because they want to but if jobs and wages dont start increasing to counter the inflation... better tighten that belt another notch and plan on bunkering down for a long dry summer.
Nothing I said is not true. I did not say they were spending it! I said they had it and are actually doing fine.
They are not spending because of the gloom and doom bla bla bla this has a ripple effect. As I said before, a self fulfilling prophecy, couldn't happen any other way!
Originally posted by Red88FF: Nothing I said is not true. I did not say they were spending it! I said they had it and are actually doing fine.
Then why are foreclosures skyrocketing? Your claim makes no sense in the real world. People are losing their home because they ARE NOT "doing fine."
quote
They are not spending because of the gloom and doom bla bla bla this has a ripple effect.
Whatever.. you seem to be stuck on the idea that people aren't spending because it's the "in thing" when that simply isn't the case. People aren't spending because they simply don't have it to spend, the market reacts to this unfavorably as banks and investors lose income.
quote
As I said before, a self fulfilling prophecy, couldn't happen any other way!
If you are referring to the stock markets and speculation (being a self fulling prophecy) then the idea may be sound but there is a counter to your claim called necessity.
People will sell stocks, cash in bonds and sell short to get liquid cash to spend on "necessities" such as light bills, mortgages and car payments or just to protect their capital gain over the last 10 years. Heavy investors will also be less apt to venture into higher risk investments and will seek "shelter" investments. This isn't a self fulling prophecy but rather a necessary course of action to stave off "personal" economic disaster. When that money runs out and the 401k only has a few dollars left, the economy will descend even further into the murky depths as the stock market begins to cannibalize itself by short selling more frequently. Capitalist will capitalize on anything even a bear market. Theres always money to be made.. if you have it. if you dont.. TS, you lose.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 03-08-2008).]
Bill, I said "the vast majority" sorry but that is a flat fact. Get over it. If you cannot reply in this context, don't bother. I never said some people were not suffering nor that there is not a ripple effect to some degree. And yes, our economy and money is strictly confidence based, connect the dots.
Again, record house sales and ownership will equal record defaults without any other contributing factors! this is a no brainer.
The Arabs are twisting the knife and we should make them pay for it too.
I bet, and you can archive this, that most all these "problems" that are scaring the hell out of everybody and making them tighten the purse strings will almost magically disappear this time next year.
[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 03-08-2008).]
People are losing their homes because they took out loans they can't pay.
Are foreclosers really skyrocketing? What % of total home loans out there are AMR? What % of those are in forecloser? What % of total loans are in forecloser? What % of forecloser are not ARM?
Most stocks aren't being sold for quick cash. Its being sold because the market is going down because people are selling stocks because the market is going down because people are selling stocks because the market is going down because people are selling stocks because the market is going down because people are selling stocks because the market is going down. Its called a bear market. Bear markets are fed on fear. They don't last very long. People don't fall into ruin. Its not the end of the world. The only people who have to worry are the ones who got them selves in deep debt by their own actions.
People are losing their homes because they took out loans they can't pay.
Are foreclosers really skyrocketing? What % of total home loans out there are AMR? What % of those are in forecloser? What % of total loans are in forecloser? What % of forecloser are not ARM?
You will not get an answer to that from these guys because it is counter productive to their baseless arguement.
Originally posted by Red88FF: Bill, I said "the vast majority" sorry but that is a flat fact. Get over it. If you cannot reply in this context, don't bother.
You are the one using generalities here so there nothing for me to get over other than your use of them in ways you cant even substantiate with facts.
quote
I never said some people were not suffering nor that there is not a ripple effect to some degree. And yes, our economy and money is strictly confidence based, connect the dots.
Some? Everyone is effected by this not just "some." The degree of the effects are direct proportional to wealth and the desire to have the biggest house on the block.
Confidence is only a small portion of the overall scope of the economy. When people see stocks tanking it doesn't require a degree in economics to sell your sticks before they drop below your buying price + trade commissions. Thats not fear, thats just being a smart capitalist protecting his money.
quote
Again, record house sales and ownership will equal record defaults without any other contributing factors! this is a no brainer.
Umm.. records sales don't necessarily translate to record defaults unless there is a factor which precipitates it.
What caused it was a combination of things such as energy costs which increase the costs of everything across the board, throw into the mixture incomes that don't keep pace with rising costs then top it off with a rise in interest rates on ARMs. It all spells "inflation." When the market makes a downward turn because of it thats called "recession." The big "buzzword" is stagflation. It's a combination of a slowing of the money flow into "frivolous" things (new cars, boats, couches, the home improvement stuff IE toys and fun stuff like vacations) + a stagnant stock market = stagflation.
quote
The Arabs are twisting the knife and we should make them pay for it too.
Straw man... aint going there.
quote
I bet, and you can archive this, that most all these "problems" that are scaring the hell out of everybody and making them tighten the purse strings will almost magically disappear this time next year.
There is nothing to fear unless you have something to lose. When a good chunk of the people are losing their houses and selling their stocks and bonds to pay bills the fear is not imagined but rather is real.
Folks sell off their 401s it translates to stock market losses. When big investors start loosing money they sell and shelter, when CEO's start seeing a loss in stock values they prop them up by slashing spending on salaries, bonuses and computer upgrades. That effects company like Dell and HP who then need to scale back... EVERYTHING is related and symbiontic. That guy who used to make 50k at Dell lost his fixed rate mortgaged home because he lost his income.
When the banks concocted this greed scam to prey on the publics natural desire to have the biggest dik in town with the most toys, there was no energy difficulties so the rate of failure was "manageable" and tolerable.
People are becoming penny wise so they are BOTH less apt and or able to play games with money in volatile times such as we ALL are currently experiencing.
Even the richest man in America pays more for gas, the fact is he can pay 9.00 a gallon and it wont mean a damn thing to him... everything is just lovely... well until he gets down to his last few hundred million.
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 03-08-2008).]
You are so fuking dense!
