Why is everyone so hung up on gender? Because it was a girl that died we should cry a river? A gang banger is a gang banger. I'd bet my Fiero that this thread would still be one page if it was one of the boys that had died.
[This message has been edited by Fastback 86 (edited 06-01-2006).]
Why is everyone so hung up on gender? Because it was a girl that died we should cry a river? A gang banger is a gang banger. I'd bet my Fiero that this thread would still be one page if it was one of the boys that had died.
That depends on how short he was, or how young he was, or some other irrelevant detail or FACT. But I do tend to agree.
My first post was to show the media leanings against the military: Quote myself:
On the radio, they stated that the Ultra-Liberal Atlanta Journal-Constitution's story line was "Former Marine Kills Pregnant Robber" in an effort to build sympathy for the woman. End quote.
To continue the liberal media mantra against the military, and expand on that post:
This morning, Good Morning America reports that US Marines shot and killed a pregnant woman when she refused to stop at a road block in Iraq.
In the Atlanta incident, the fact that the robbery victim was an Ex-Marine had absolutely nothing to do with what happened. In the Iraq story, Pregnant Woman had nothing to do with what happened. Both were used to paint the US Military in bad light. If they had known for a fact that the woman was pregnant and carrying a car bomb while coming at them at break-neck speed, should they have let her continue just because she was pregnant? HELL NO!!! Both women got what they deserved.
Now, on a similar vein, it's suspected that marines might have slaughtered up to 2 dozen civilians without cause. If it's found to be factual, they should get the same treatment as the 2 women got.
Originally posted by fierofool: This morning, Good Morning America reports that US Marines shot and killed a pregnant woman when she refused to stop at a road block in Iraq.
Once again can you tell an Arab woman is preggers when she's driving a car at you? Nope and she got killed . I'm sure these checkpoints are commonplace in iraq today, so it's not like she didn't know what to do when she got to one. Yes i think the media feeds off of anything they can potray as negative that deals with the U.S. in Iraq. Where are the stories of the good being done? Or are our soldiers and Marines running amuck and shooting anything that moves?
------------------ HARDCORE SBC CRONIE AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?
I'm all for the Marine protecting himself. However, it seems unfortunate to me that as a "civilized" society we can so easily shrug off the stabbing death of a pregnant teenage girl. It's an ugly event from any angle.
Okay, only read half the first page, lot of info here, but my take is.
She didnt even know (unless she was physic) that she was pregnant yet, how does this factor into his actions? That was only brought to light as a way to disgrace his actions and probably in some stupid retarded way to imply that the government was responsible for killing a baby.
I would have killed the lot of them given the oppurtunity, if I can fight back they better as hell back off because if someone comes at me with a gun, im taking down as many as I can with me. If you're still there in an aggresive presence, your going down, or im going to die trying. Sure in the appropriate situation, shoot them in the leg, try to detain people, but 5 people with a shotgun jump me in the middle of the street at night? Im stabbing for the jugular/corotid and shooting in the chest. I dont care who you are or who you kill, its justified. (barring unreasonable circumstances, like you kill all 4 guys and the girl is unarmed trying to slap you). Somehow I dont think civilization is missing anything loosing these criminals anyway, we've got enough of them as it is.
... just didn't see a reason to jump into that particular flamefest, dumb ass comments have been flying in a bunch of threads and only so much stomping one can do in a day.
I know what you mean about "only so much stomping one can do in a day". And for all the time it takes, there's unfortunately very little return on the investment.
Honestly I don't care about the girl, one way or another. Is that what you were looking for?
I wasn’t “looking for” anything, except for perhaps not being tried and convicted by a lynch mob.
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Originally posted by Patrick:
My message all along has been that it's ugly and distressing (to say the least) that we have teenage girls (pregnant or otherwise) dying in the streets.
I guess I must have been brought up on a different planet if no one else (except for Scott apparently) feels it’s disturbing that young kids are dying while being involved in armed robberies. For the upteenth time, that’s not a criticism of the Marine who was protecting himself.
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Originally posted by Uaana:
I will not see her as some kind of poor victim innocently led astray from the straight and narrow.
I don’t see anyone in this thread suggesting you should.
Originally posted by Patrick: What the hell was that all about? How did “abortion rights” enter the discussion?
I don't know how you feel about abortion rights, but I find it incredibly hypocritical when someone supports the right of a woman to kill her unborn child and then makes an emotional plea when an unborn child is killed in an incident like this. Same with when a pregnant woman is murdered and charges are filed against the perp for killing her unborn child, too. It can't be said that a fetus is just a lump of cells and tissue when a woman wants an abortion but that that same fetus can have rights or be a victim in circumstances like this. For the record, I'm pro-choice, pro-death penalty, and pro-violent criminals being killed during the commision of their crimes even if it means their unborn children die along with them. Tough sh!t.
But if it turns out that your "facts" are illusory, what do you expect? Martin was female. She was young. However, "[c]ontrary to earlier reports an autopsy showed that Martin was not pregnant when she was killed." (from your link).
How are my facts “illusory”?
First of all, it wasn’t “my link”. It was the same link that Formula88 posted earlier in the thread. Yes, it’s a little confusing because the news story was updated and changed from the original version. Don’t believe me? Then check the quotes on the first page of this thread by Formula88:
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Originally posted by Formula88:
From TFA: "Two of the robbers jumped from the car. When one of the robbers pointed a shotgun at him, the Autry kicked it out of his hands.
At that point two of the robbers jumped on the victim. During the struggle he stabbed both of them. One, a teenaged female who has been identified as Amy Martin, died of her wounds. Officials say Martin was pregnant. A second is in critical condition."
Hell, here’s the whole article. I googled and found it quoted in a news group:
ATLANTA -- Five robbers picked the wrong victim in Midtown Atlanta last night and one of them paid with her life.
The victim, Thomas Autry, fought back; killing one robber and wounding another. Three other suspects are in jail.
Autry was walking to his girlfriend's home after getting off work as a waiter at Jocks and Jills. The five suspects pulled up in a car and confronted the victim in the 500 block of Penn Street just before midnight.
Autry began running down the street yelling for help. Residents who heard him called 911. While he was running, Autry pulled a pocket knife from his backpack.
Two of the robbers jumped from the car. When one of the robbers pointed a shotgun at him, the Autry kicked it out of his hands.
At that point two of the robbers jumped on the victim. During the struggle he stabbed both of them. One, a teenaged female who has been identified as Amy Martin, died of her wounds. Officials say Martin was pregnant. A second is in critical condition.
Police arrived on the scene and with a description of the car; they quickly arrested the three other suspects.
Other suspects arrested were identified as Christopher Daniel, 19, of Atlanta; Kendall Barksdale, 18, of Atlanta; Christopher Hayes, 18, of Douglasville and a 16-year-old male juvenile. They will all be charged with aggravated assault and armed robbery.
Thomas Autry, who is a former U.S. Marine, will not be charged since police say he was acting in self defense. Officials say Autry is extremely remorseful.
So how are my facts “illusory”? Did you click on the link and then watch the videos there. Even the girl’s mother is saying the girl was pregnant. Ya sure, I was supplying “illusory” facts.
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Originally posted by Shyster:
On the other hand, your second post was deliberately inflammatory, and disregarded "fact": "Sorry if it wrecks the illusion of some 6'5" 350lb muscle-bound guy being handed his ass," you said. Nowhere in any story are there any reports of a real, or illusory, "6'5" 350lb muscle-bound guy." What "illusion" were you trying to torpedo?
Both of my first two posts in this thread were in response to posts by DtheC. Read them over. By the way, also read the heading of the article I posted above. Notice the reference to “Rambo”? Combine it all and it isn’t difficult to visualize the “illusion” of the character I described. Of course it wasn’t based on any “story” or “report” regarding this incident. My gawd, you’re reaching for straws here, you really are.
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Originally posted by Shyster:
Fact: Very, very close to ˝ of humanity is below-average.
Below average what? And you’re being critical of my facts? That’s hilarious!
Shyster, I’m beginning to wonder about your motivations here. In This thread you came to the defense of a forum member who is a known troll, a sympathizer of war criminals. Even when I pointed out to you what a dumbass he was/is, you continued to pursue your line of reasoning. So what’s your game here, are you trying to live up to your user name?
I don't know how you feel about abortion rights, but I find it incredibly hypocritical when someone supports the right of a woman to kill her unborn child and then makes an emotional plea when an unborn child is killed in an incident like this. Same with when a pregnant woman is murdered and charges are filed against the perp for killing her unborn child, too. It can't be said that a fetus is just a lump of cells and tissue when a woman wants an abortion but that that same fetus can have rights or be a victim in circumstances like this. For the record, I'm pro-choice, pro-death penalty, and pro-violent criminals being killed during the commision of their crimes even if it means their unborn children die along with them. Tough sh!t.
Who the hell here made an “emotional plea” for any “unborn child” ???
Boomer, after reading your three posts directed to me in this thread, I have something to say to you that I’ve never said to anyone ever in this or any other forum - Go take a f*cking hike...
My apologies to everyone else reading this post, but I’ve tried as long as I could to remain civil with complete assh*les like BN Boomer who obviously lack the reading skills or comprehension to intelligently participate in a public forum.
Why is everyone so hung up on gender? Because it was a girl that died we should cry a river? A gang banger is a gang banger. I'd bet my Fiero that this thread would still be one page if it was one of the boys that had died.
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Originally posted by DRA:
That depends on how short he was, or how young he was, or some other irrelevant detail or FACT. But I do tend to agree.
Fine, but where do you draw the line? Why report the guy was a Marine? Why report he was a guy? Why report he was a cook? Why report a knife was used? Why report it happened in Atlanta?
Should every male ex-Marine living in Atlanta working as a cook who’s ever used a knife be offended or pleased or what?
Interestingly enough, two facts that were never mentioned (in any news reports I’ve read) were that both the Marine and the girl were black. What will some of you read into that? Am I now being racist?
Originally posted by Patrick: Who the hell here made an “emotional plea” for any “unborn child” ???
You did. By trying to make an issue out of the deceased criminal's supposed pregnancy. Don't like your own words? Again, tough sh!t. Go take a f*cking hike yourself. Just make it towards the North.
[This message has been edited by BN Boomer (edited 06-01-2006).]
You did. By trying to make an issue out of the deceased criminal's supposed pregnancy. Don't like your own words? Again, tough sh!t. Go take a f*cking hike yourself. Just make it towards the North.
Oh, we're going to turn this into one of those stupid American/Canadian confrontations now, are we? Grow up...
She didnt even know (unless she was physic) that she was pregnant yet, how does this factor into his actions? That was only brought to light as a way to disgrace his actions and probably in some stupid retarded way to imply that the government was responsible for killing a baby.
I have to admit that the words "stupid" and "retarded" come to mind as I read this as well.
Patrick, I hope you don't feel that I am a member of a lynch mob. I have no desire to be a member of a lynch mob or any other group. I did not intend to attack you, or even to critcize you. I only wanted to discuss an issue that I feel needs discussed and clarify what you thought. Perhaps someday we can try again. I am truly sorry if I have offended you.
Jack, I’m not looking for apologies from you or anyone else. People can say what they wish (within reason), that’s what a forum is all about. I have to admit however, that I find it unbelievable that I’ve picked up about 20 negative ratings over this one topic. I could’ve started a thread about killing puppies and eating kittens and received less criticism.
I thought your questions were basically answered in my posts following your last post. There is so much being focused on the fact that this girl was pregnant. Yes, I mentioned it in an early post of mine, and almost everybody has jumped all over that. Why? Is it common in every city in the States that pregnant 17 year old girls are committing armed robbery? As far as I know, it isn’t common in my neck of the woods. That to me was newsworthy. Good gawd, let’s shoot the messenger!
Or is it the following that you feel wasn’t touched upon?:
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Originally posted by Cadillac Jack:
But it seems as though, and there again maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, that you think this all happened because "it's a screwed up world".
It's my belief it's a screwed up world because these things happen.
If this is what you're still wondering about, I think it’s a chicken and egg situation. Who really knows for sure which is responsible for what? I certainly don’t know. If I had to choose, I’d agree with your assessment that it's a screwed up world because these things happen.
Jack, your posts were fine. I’m not the least bit ticked off with you.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 06-01-2006).]
Jack, I’m not looking for apologies from you or anyone else. People can say what they wish (within reason), that’s what a forum is all about. I have to admit however, that I find it unbelievable that I’ve picked up about 20 negative ratings over this one topic. I could’ve started a thread about killing puppies and eating kittens and received less criticism.
I thought your questions were basically answered in my posts following your last post. There is so much being focused on the fact that this girl was pregnant. Yes, I mentioned it in an early post of mine, and almost everybody has jumped all over that. Why? Is it common in every city in the States that pregnant 17 year old girls are committing armed robbery? As far as I know, it isn’t common in my neck of the woods. That to me was newsworthy. Good gawd, let’s shoot the messenger!
Or is it the following that you feel wasn’t touched upon?:
If this is what you're still wondering about, I think it’s a chicken and egg situation. Who really knows for sure which is responsible for what? I certainly don’t know. If I had to choose, I’d agree with your assessment that it's a screwed up world because these things happen.
Jack, your posts were fine. I’m not the least bit ticked off with you.
From what I understand, the girl wasn't pregnant, she was a part of a terrorist robbing crew, they even drove a brand new 2007 Cadillac, meaning they robbed quite a few people. They attacked an innocent person with a guns, but they just messed with the wrong person and got killed.
If a pregnant woman comes up to you with a shotgun to your head, what would you do? I'm pretty sure 17 year olds get pregnant in Canada as well. Especially Vancouver, because its one if not the most crime ridden city in Canada.
From what I understand, the girl wasn't pregnant, she was a part of a terrorist robbing crew, they even drove a brand new 2007 Cadillac, meaning they robbed quite a few people. They attacked an innocent person with a guns, but they just messed with the wrong person and got killed.
If a pregnant woman comes up to you with a shotgun to your head, what would you do? I'm pretty sure 17 year olds get pregnant in Canada as well. Especially Vancouver, because its one if not the most crime ridden city in Canada.
Fine, but where do you draw the line? Why report the guy was a Marine? Why report he was a guy? Why report he was a cook? Why report a knife was used? Why report it happened in Atlanta?
Should every male ex-Marine living in Atlanta working as a cook who’s ever used a knife be offended or pleased or what?
Interestingly enough, two facts that were never mentioned (in any news reports I’ve read) were that both the Marine and the girl were black. What will some of you read into that? Am I now being racist?
I understand what you're saying, Patrick, but my point was not about which details should or shouldn't be reported. What I meant was, why do we need special perspective because it was a girl? Are women given special consideration when they participate in crimes? The fact is, she was involved in an armed robbery and things turned out very poorly for her. Why should I feel any differently than if it were one of the boys who died?
For the record, I haven't negged you, there has been no reason to in this thread. Anyone who has is an idiot, and they can quote me on that when they neg me.
I don't know... when I read Patrick's first post... I took it more as a "and can you believe this...the girl that was killed was a pregnant teen. What is happening in this world?"
Apparently others felt different.
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Originally posted by FieroOilAnalyst:
Definitely don't put much weight into what I say.
FieroOilAnalyst, before I even get a chance to thank you for having the guts to voice your opinion when it appears to go against the crowd here, you already appear to be backing down. I’m disappointed to say the least...
Originally posted by Uaana: Ya, I think most of us can see maybe that's what Patrick was saying. Unfortunately some of his previous posts have probably colored peoples opinions of him and his posts. Just my 2c
After Patrick explained himself, I understood where he was coming from. Mostly.
Although this sounded like a bit of a cheap shot...
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Originally posted by Patrick: Why so defensive? Sorry if it wrecks the illusion of some 6'5" 350lb muscle-bound guy being handed his ass.
As if to minimize the Marine's courage? Makes me wonder.
As for the "some of his previous posts" comment, I would tend to agree. Sorry.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 06-01-2006).]
FieroOilAnalyst, before I even get a chance to thank you for having the guts to voice your opinion when it appears to go against the crowd here, you already appear to be backing down. I’m disappointed to say the least...
Nah...not backing down...just laughing at myself for the FOA confusion thing. I read what I read and I voiced how I took it.
Are women given special consideration when they participate in crimes?
As I’ve already stated earlier on this page, I felt it was newsworthy that a pregnant 17 year old girl was participating in armed robbery. Somehow this is being turned around by many people to appear that I felt she should’ve received “special consideration”. I don’t know how many more ways I can state that this was never my intention.
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Originally posted by Fastback 86:
For the record, I haven't negged you, there has been no reason to in this thread. Anyone who has is an idiot, and they can quote me on that when they neg me.
Fastback, thanks for stating that.
I just checked over the ratings I’ve given people on this forum, and there’s a grand total of 20 people I’ve given negatives to over the years. Most of those people are not even members here anymore. Believe it or not, not one person involved in this thread has ever received a negative from me. Honest. However, as you might imagine, that could change.
What really galls me are all the ignorant spineless cowards who look over a couple of posts in a thread and then give people negative ratings. They haven’t got the guts or the brains to engage in a rational discussion, but they nonetheless rate people at the slightest whim.
I’d like to see who has real balls here. Who has given me a negative rating due to what has been stated in this thread?
I think it says a lot that the Marine feels remorseful. He used deadly force to save his own life yet he feels bad for the outcome. That does, in my opinion, show that while there are some really screwed up people in this world, there are also some real winners. This Marine is one of those winners.
I think it says a lot that the Marine feels remorseful. He used deadly force to save his own life yet he feels bad for the outcome. That does, in my opinion, show that while there are some really screwed up people in this world, there are also some real winners. This Marine is one of those winners.
Agreed. I watched the video where the damn news crew interviewed him at his front door. (I don't agree with them doing that.) You could tell he was genuinely choked up about the whole thing. No bullsh!t bravado from this guy.
Plus! I don't think people are giving you Negs Patrick. Get over youself.
And if you wanted to know. I have you a positive a long time ago. We are polar opposites, but that isn't enough to giv a neg in my world. You're actually a good debater.
What do you do with criminals? I would have defended myself and my wife. It is unfortunate but I defend the Marines actions and wish him well. God be with those how have been killed and them still with us.
Plus! I don't think people are giving you Negs Patrick. Get over youself.
Wichita, this pregnancy issue was something which was reported by the news media. The girl's own mother said she was pregnant in the news video. What are us mere mortals expected to do, consult with the girls gynecologist?
You can "think" all you want about my negative ratings, but that doesn't change the fact that prior to this thread, I had 125 ratings, about 35% negative and 65% positive. Look at my ratings now. At one point (a couple of hours ago) with 135 ratings, the majority was in the red. You do the math... (In the last half hour or so, the ratings have crept up to about 50/50.)
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Originally posted by Wichita:
And if you wanted to know. I have you a positive a long time ago. We are polar opposites, but that isn't enough to giv a neg in my world. You're actually a good debater.
Well, as I suspect, it’s the ignorant spineless cowards who don’t even debate who throw the negatives around.
After Patrick explained himself, I understood where he was coming from. Mostly.
Although this sounded like a bit of a cheap shot...
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Originally posted by Patrick:
Why so defensive? I simply stated a fact from the above link.
Sorry if it wrecks the illusion of some 6'5" 350lb muscle-bound guy being handed his ass.
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Originally posted by Raydar:
As if to minimize the Marine's courage? Makes me wonder.
My response was to counteract the sensationist heading of the original news story, “Midtown Rambo; Victim Fight Backs, Kills Robber” and two posts by DtheC at the beginning of this thread. Both the news heading and the posts by DtheC seemed to me to be glorifying the killing of the robber. By making it clear that the robber was not some huge guy, not some hardened criminal, I was only attempting to take some of the “glory” out of the killing. The "handed his ass" part was actually paraphrased from one of DtheC's posts. If you saw the video I referred to in a previous post of the Marine, you’d know that even he would probably be horrified to be compared to “Rambo” in this situation.
I have said nothing, absolutely nothing to discredit the Marine in this thread.
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Originally posted by Raydar:
As for the "some of his previous posts" comment, I would tend to agree. Sorry.
Another cheap shot with nothing to back it up. Thanks Raydar.
