My daughter and son-in-law recently bought a largely unimproved ranch in the area to stand up an Equine Therapy for women veterans and first responders. I was out there today and looked inside the main service panel at the road and noticed the contractor who did the original electrical pulled two 120 v mains and a ground to the box at the well station, about 600 feet away. In other words, he did NOT also pull a neutral. When their builder was out at the property today I asked him if it would be possible to pull the Ground back to the street and use that to pull a new Neutral wire back through the conduit. He said no, and that they would have to pull ALL the wires out, hopefully without damaging them, and then pull them PLUS the new neutral back. The needle on my BS meter started to climb. The conduit is about 2" plastic pipe so it seems like there should be plenty of room.
Any thoughts on this situation? (BTW, I was stunned when I went to Home Depot to buy a small roll of 12 gauge ground wire for $60! I gather the neutral wire is going to run into the many-thousands category )
It is not at all unusual, out in the county, for a 240v water well to only have 2 hots and a Ground. There is no requirement for the well to have a neutral. The two 120v lines cancel each other out so there's nothing to return out a neutral.
The well at my old place was the same way and I had to run a neutral via 12/2 with ground to the well pedestal in order to mount a120v outlet to plug in a heater in winter. It was only about 40' from the house tho.
Yes, ground and neutral can be (and probably are) bonded together at the "first means of disconnect) which is probably the main distribution, but if you are wanting to run a neutral to get a light or 120v outlet there for some other purpose and thinking about using the ground for a neutral........., you have to take in consideration keeping the load balanced between the two 120v lines going to the well. You might think, 'what's a few watts difference in the lines?" but on start, it can make a lot of difference, especially if the pump has a soft start circuit and cap.
It might be just a cheap if your proposed load is small, to just run direct burial 12/2 with ground from a dedicated 120v breaker in that dist panel..
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-17-2025).]
Listen to the contractor - he does this for a living....
I have a serious problem with the whole 'professional contractor' idea, unfortunately. Years ago I bought a home with a professional kitchen remodel with pulled permits and city inspections, including electrical. On Day One moving in, I climbed a step ladder to the attic entrance and pushed up the access panel and immediately a few inches from my face saw the electricians work: two 120 lines joined together in a box with no cover and no wire nuts, with the wires literally sticking up outside the box about six inches, wires loosely wrapped with electrical tape. As I looked at all the wiring in the attic associated with the kitchen remodel it was obvious that the 'electrician' was a hack and that the City 'inspector' had signed off without consulting the attic. I've had several other 'professional contractor' fails that have left me quite jaded.
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Why do you want a neutral?
Looks like I forgot to mention that they are looking at building a house about 100-200 ft from the well so the idea is to pick up power from from that box for the house, which if I understand correctly needs to have a neutral. I've seen a suggestion that since neutral is tied to ground anyway, the house panel could tie the new buss to the grounding rod.
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Consult the local codes ...
I shall try to do so. Last time I tried that what I found was unintelligible.
Looks like I forgot to mention that they are looking at building a house about 100-200 ft from the well so the idea is to pick up power from from that box for the house, which if I understand correctly needs to have a neutral. I've seen a suggestion that since neutral is tied to ground anyway, the house panel could tie the new buss to the grounding rod.
The house will absolutely need a neutral. other than that, I can't see me pulling house current off anything but a meter loop and the house's own main dist panel
Originally posted by Notorio: I was out there today and looked inside the main service panel at the road and noticed the contractor who did the original electrical pulled two 120 v mains and a ground to the box at the well station, about 600 feet away. In other words, he did NOT also pull a neutral.
Any thoughts on this situation? (BTW, I was stunned when I went to Home Depot to buy a small roll of 12 gauge ground wire for $60! I gather the neutral wire is going to run into the many-thousands category )
Color me confused also.
I like to think outside the box, and am not an electrician. What is the difference between a ground and a neutral ? Can not the ground wire be branched off of to be a ground and a neutral ?
My questions are what is the difference between a ground and a neutral ? What gives a neutral it's abilities ? Why is it needed ?
Originally posted by cliffw: Can one take a 220v lead and branch it off into two 110v mains ?
Can one just add a short ground lead from the breaker box to a ground rod just out side where the neutral is needed and swap the long reach ground ground wire to a neutral ?
Thinking about it, one needs a positive, neutral, and ground.
Can one take a 220v lead and branch it off into two 110v mains ?
It's alternating current, there's no such thing as a 'positive'. There's also no such thing in 220v/240v household power as 'a (1) 220 lead'. You have 2 lines, of 120v EACH coming in, along with 1 neutral. YOU, the homeowner or business owner supplies the ground. To get 240v,/220v for high voltage needs, you run 2 lines.. of 120/110v each to your appliance.
Can one just add a short ground lead from the breaker box to a ground rod just out side where the neutral is needed and swap the long reach ground ground wire to a neutral ?
That's what I was thinking. The panel Maryjane posted (thank you!) has the Neutral and Ground tied together inside the box. So what benefit is there to ALSO running the 4/0 (or whatever) neutral wire all the way back to the street?
It's difficult to explain, but doing so runs a risk of sending voltage back out the neutral line either inside your home or outside. The ONLY place National Electric Code allows Neutral and Ground to be tied together is inside "First means of disconnect" (their term) which is almost always inside the main distribution panel unless you have a main disconnect in or outside your home before power gets to your main dist panel. (Meter box is not usually considered a means of disconnect) You should always see zero Voltage on any neutral line.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-19-2025).]
It's difficult to explain, but doing so runs a risk of sending voltage back out the neutral line either inside your home or outside. The ONLY place National Electric Code allows Neutral and Ground to be tied together is inside "First means of disconnect" (their term) which is almost always inside the main distribution panel unless you have a main disconnect in or outside your home before power gets to your main dist panel. (Meter box is not usually considered a means of disconnect) You should always see zero Voltage on any neutral line.
That makes some sense to me. Thanks.
Unfortunately, having leafed through the Index and several sections of the Electrical Code, it was incomprehensible. I was able to understand the rules for Dumbwaiters and Ice Melting Facilities, but I couldn't really find the section governing Service Entrance Panels. The requirements seem to be spread out over many different sections.
It will be in Section 250.2?, meaning 250.2 thru a bunch more subsections.
Keep in mind that NEC doesn't MANDATE that neutral/ground be bonded, it just states that NEC 'allows' it. Note what I posted:
"Yes, ground and neutral can be (and probably are) bonded together at the "first means of disconnect) " and "The ONLY place National Electric Code allows Neutral and Ground to be tied together is inside "First means of disconnect"
Watch this for a simpler explanation regarding why almost every application ground and neutral ARE bonded together (at first means of disconnect).
People think neutral is dead, and it is, on a deactivated circuit, but it is very much a current carrying conductor if the circuit is live. Add just a small measure of Voltage to neutral, (relative to ground) and you have a very dangerous situation. So, bonding the neutral to ground at the main panel, gives stray or unintended voltage on your neutral, a place/way to go to ground rod.
One of the first explanations of household current I got many many years ago was, "Electricity comes in to your house, all volts and no amps but Electricity leaves, all amps and zero volts. (accurately, 'almost' zero volts) (the amps are created when 'work' is done which causes current flow and vice versa...no 'work'-no amps)
We have all heard "Electricity wants to go to Earth ground and will take the shortest available fastest path to get there" NO NO NO! Water and any liquid does that.
Electricity, takes ALL available paths and it only travels one speed..which is very close to light speed.
It does not 'want' to go to ground either. Electrical current flow is simply trying to achieve balance. Where current 'wants' to go is back to source. For residential apps, that is the transformer out on the pole or in the pedestal in your yard. That's where your utility company's single hot line is transformed (stepped) down and split to two separate 120 volt lines to go to your meter loop.
(Lightening and sometimes, electricity from a home generator, act differently)
Anyway, good luck with it. I rewired my shop last year, and it's a very small shop. I too, was floored when I saw what 12/2 with ground cost.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 02-19-2025).]
My outside circuit breaker box at the meter has a ground rod connected to it at the ??? neutral bar, I think.
It varies. Theoretically, there should be zero/no voltage on the ground line but unless it's a brand new build, with all new appliances with each having no voltage leakage and every single outlet was wired 100% correct there may occasionally be a small amount of voltage present. Millivolts.
Yes, neutral will pass thru a set of lugs in the meter box and go on to the main dist panel. There will be a lug somewhere in the meter can for ground. Equipment ground to carry away any voltage from moisture that provides a path between the hot wire lugs and the metal parts of the meter box. Sometimes the ground from the meter box goes straight to the ground rod, sometimes that wire goes on thru to the main dist panel and then down to the ground rod.
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