I have created offshore wind energy threads in this Totally O/T section before, but this recent 5+ minutes report from the PBS "Nova" franchise takes the coverage to a new level. It's the most offshore wind energy background packed into the briefest video segment that I think I've ever seen. And the hack that uses air bubbles to mitigate the propagation of underwater noise from the construction, as a way to reduce the adverse impacts on marine life... that just blows my mind.
It's no secret that in the U.S. and Europe, offshore wind energy development has encountered some serious "headwinds." It's proving difficult to manage the cost side of the equation. The "red ink", as it were, that has to be expended before the wind farms become fully operational.
This report, which aired as recently as August 2, puts the best foot forward (so to speak) for the offshore sector of the global wind energy playing field (so to speak.)
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 10-04-2023).]
Take wind map in the video & then overlay w/ Hurricane maps. No such thing is Hurricane Proof & part of why no oil drilling on East Coast. & why they stop & evacuate Gulf drilling for big storms.
Sandy Is part of Why No-one wants them near NY NJ DE & some states near them but Greenies. A lot of NJ still have people "cleaning up" the damage for that. Wasn't first time either... In early 60's NJ had a Hurricane tried to dig more inlets In the barrier island & peninsula wrecking both. Maybe same storm that trashed Texas Tower 4 in 1960, look up NOAA site: Donna 1960
Worse, Bet they won't clean up when, not if, offshore wind get wrecked because pieces will blown Miles away & even find the crap in/on the beaches days to years later.
+ Eastern Ocean Currents not just the Gulf Stream can push crap to UK & EU. They are a big reason why Flight 19 & more will never be found because sea floor move a lot to bury whatever &or moves the light stuff until maybe drops of the continental shelf. Only very heavy things like 2 Steam RR Engines near NJ stayed on the ocean floor for > 100 years. https://jerseyshorescene.co...ives-of-long-branch/
Related: Pacific "Garbage Patch" isn't just people throwing trash that the greenies claim but Typhoons, Tidal waves, Tsunami, etc washing huge amount of crap out to sea then currents trap the patch. How 29,000 Lost Rubber Ducks Helped Map the World's Oceans https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UjAxuSuLIc
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Originally posted by rinselberg: ... the hack that uses air bubbles to mitigate the propagation of underwater noise from the construction, as a way to reduce the adverse impacts on marine life ... that just blows my mind
Hmm. You have never reported on impacts of marine life. What else do you know about it ? Evidently, you realize it is concerning.
Are you trying to allege that impacts on marine life only happens during the construction of big azz fans ? Are you trying to allege that an operating big azz fan makes no noise ? Are you trying to allege that a operating big azz fan makes no vibration ? Which is self noise to marine life ? Do you fish ? Ever heard of a "Rattle Trap Lures" ? Have you ever had a bent or out of balanced drive shaft ?
My self, I have drilled oil wells most of my life. Most deep wells. Working the pipe can cause bent pipe. It is recognizable while drilling, with the pipe 26,000 thousand feet into the bowels of the Earth. There are specialized companies which all they do is straighten pipe.
Hmm. You have never reported on impacts of marine life. What else do you know about it ? Evidently, you realize it is concerning.
Are you trying to allege that impacts on marine life only happens during the construction of big azz fans ? Are you trying to allege that an operating big azz fan makes no noise ? Are you trying to allege that a operating big azz fan makes no vibration ? Which is self noise to marine life ? Do you fish ? Ever heard of a "Rattle Trap Lures" ? Have you ever had a bent or out of balanced drive shaft ?
My self, I have drilled oil wells most of my life. Most deep wells. Working the pipe can cause bent pipe. It is recognizable while drilling, with the pipe 26,000 thousand feet into the bowels of the Earth. There are specialized companies which all they do is straighten pipe.
The air bubble thing is nothing new at all. Been around for decades..it's just new to some people. Sort of like graboids. "Yeah Burt, everybody knows about'em, we just didn't tell you".
Up thru at least the early 90s, masker air and prairie air were top secret and even mentioning them openly could get you court martialed in the USN. Prairie air involves tiny bubbles; low pressure high volume air released along the leading and/or trailing edges of propellers. Mask air is the same thing, released all along underwater hull of a ship, especially outside noisy machinery spaces. Radar works great in air but not in water while sonar works great in water but has difficulty penetrating air. Air can also help defeat sound homing torpedoes, or could several decades ago, and could help mask speed and even direction a ship was traveling. Prairie/masking air subjects were among the things I had to sign off on, agreeing not to discuss them when I went thru gas turbine propulsion school for the then new Spruance Class ASW destroyer program. The high volume air comes from bleed air in the compressor section of gas turbine (jet) engines or on ships non GTE powered, from a specific electric powered compressor in one of the machinery spaces. The main problem with these systems is, that it doesn't work well at high speeds. Above 20 kts.
(Bleed air comes in two variants. Cool or hot. Cool air from one of the 1st sets of compressor blades and hot from the later compressor section. In aircraft, cool bleed air is piped into the cabin for air conditioning and hotter air is used for deicing control surfaces along wings and 'tail'.)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-06-2023).]
It didn't actually "blow my mind" about using curtains of air bubbles to mitigate the transmission of subsurface noise from underwater construction of offshore wind turbines.
I wasn't aware of that technique, and I had not encountered it before, in the context of offshore wind turbines.
When I said "it blows my mind," I expected the protection of the FTC's standard of commonly practiced advertising "puffery" in the commercial promotion of products and services.
You know how I feel about it Rinse... I think it's all excellent, the thing that irks me about this and solar is that China essentially owns the supply chain for it. So, 85-87% of all solar and wind power proceeds go to China...
A Supply Chain Road Map for Offshore Wind Energy in the United States
Shields, Matt, Jeremy Stefek, Frank Oteri, Sabina Maniak, Matilda Kreider, Elizabeth Gill, Ross Gould, Courtney Malvik, Sam Tirone, Eric Hines. 2023. A Supply Chain Road Map for Offshore Wind Energy in the United States. Golden, CO: National Renewable Energy Laboratory. NREL/TP-5000-84710. https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy23osti/84710.pdf.
How the Executive Summary begins...
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The offshore wind energy industry in the United States has been gaining momentum for several years as the project pipeline has expanded, states have established procurement targets, and initial investments have been made in ports and manufacturing facilities. These efforts helped lead to the Biden administration’s announcement of a national offshore wind energy target to install 30 gigawatts (GW) by 2030. This announcement not only characterized deployment goals but also identified the need for a domestic supply chain, local workforce, and energy and environmental justice as part of a new offshore wind industry. There is widespread agreement that a domestic supply chain will be critical for the sustainable growth of offshore wind energy in the United States; however, there is a general uncertainty about the scope of such a supply chain, the development time frames needed to build critical resources, the level of investment required, the potential benefits that will be available to local communities and workers, and the significance of gaps in existing manufacturing, port, vessel, or workforce infrastructure on deployment targets.
In this report, the authors describe how a fully domestic offshore wind energy supply chain could develop. We summarize the major barriers that could prevent or delay supply chain expansion and present potential solutions that could help overcome these challenges. We describe the major factors that need to be considered to develop resilient, sustainable, and equitable manufacturing capabilities in the United States. Finally, we present a scenario for a domestic supply chain that estimates the number of required major component manufacturing facilities, ports, and vessels that would need to be developed by 2030 to support an annual deployment of 4–6 GW. This deployment rate would put the nation on a pathway to installing 110 GW by 2050 primarily using domestically produced components. This scenario illustrates the level of investment, development time, and workforce growth that could be required to develop a domestic supply chain. We demonstrate that if individual states leverage their existing manufacturing capabilities to contribute to the offshore wind energy sector, this conceptual supply chain would generate significant workforce and economic benefits throughout the United States, not just in coastal locations with active offshore wind energy programs. The results are intended to provide information to federal and state governments, economic development agencies, organized labor, project developers, manufacturers, and community representatives to facilitate supply chain planning and decision-making. The following sections identify key actions that could help to develop a domestic supply chain and summarize the analysis work detailed in this report (which helps to inform the list of actions).
... and how it ends.
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It will take time to build a domestic offshore wind supply chain. As a result, there is an urgency to invest in supply chain resources if they are going to contribute to the 30-GW-by-2030 target. Despite this urgency, it will still be critical to meaningfully engage with key stakeholders, including host communities and other groups that will be impacted by new supply chain development. We are faced with a unique opportunity to create a substantial domestic manufacturing industry that can be tailored to support the energy transition, address unique U.S. market conditions, create a stable pipeline of well-paid jobs with robust apprenticeship programs, and maximize benefits to historically disadvantaged communities. Seizing this opportunity will require effective communication and coordination throughout the offshore wind energy sector to make strategic investment decisions in a timely manner while incorporating perspectives from these stakeholders. If we can develop this supply chain in parallel with deploying the first wave of projects in the United States, the domestic industry will be well-positioned to reliably support the expansion of offshore wind energy to help facilitate the transition to a decarbonized economy.
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Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: You know how I feel about it Rinse... I think it's all excellent, the thing that irks me about this and solar is that China essentially owns the supply chain for it. So, 85-87% of all solar and wind power proceeds go to China...
Typical RWNJ... dominated by their feelings or emotions, instead of using reason and logic.
The only way to develop a domestic offshore wind energy supply chain is to proceed with offshore wind energy development and provide investor and contract incentives to build up the domestic supply chain as "we go."
I have not studied "A Supply Chain Road Map for Offshore Wind Energy in the United States."
It has almost 200 pages of text and diagrams.
It includes 52 references to the Inflation Reduction Act, which has been touted as the largest federal commitment to date, for Climate Mitigation and Adaptation.
Offshore wind energy development promises Climate Mitigation by providing climate-friendly energy... energy that comes with significant reductions in greenhouse gas emissions, compared to coal, oil and natural gas.
It's not a "no-brainer"... just a "brainer."
RWNJs gonna RWNJ
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 10-22-2023).]
It's not RWNJ when the wind turbine industry itself cuts estimates of both productivity and investments due to supply chain challenges and lack of technological ability to implement changes the industry needs to move forward.
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is to proceed with offshore wind energy development and provide investor and contract incentives to build up the domestic supply chain as "we go".
You are speaking not of months but years if not decades and not millions but HUNDREDS of billions of $$ "someone' is going to have to come up with, not to mention tech that doesn't exist in the real world to any significant scale.
Go tell the giants of this industry like Siemens Gamesa, VESTAS and Orsted A/S and see how loud and long they laugh at you.
They have not only (all) downgraded their guidance for 2024 downward on new builds due to supply chain issues worldwide, but have farther (and loudly) noted reliability issues (especially in Gamesa) of both current and older units.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 10-25-2023).]
Originally posted by maryjane: It's not RWNJ when the wind turbine industry itself cuts estimates of both productivity and investments due to supply chain challenges and lack of technological ability to implement changes the industry needs to move forward.
Yes.
My RWNJ reference was specifically to how 82-T/A framed his remarks, with his much narrower focus on China and their competitive advantages.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 10-25-2023).]
My RWNJ reference was specifically to how 82-T/A framed his remarks, with his much narrower focus on China and their competitive advantages.
And that in of itself is a problem.
NY has gotten on board with this whole US (USA USA USA!!) domestic thing, by promptly endorsing offshore contracts with four (count em--4!! ) European companies
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The new awards, to projects under development by France's TotalEnergies (TTEF.PA), Germany's RWE (RWEG.DE), Britain's National Grid (NG.L), and Denmark's Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners (CIP), are still under negotiation, the state said.
The more than 4 gigawatts of offshore wind power the projects will be capable of generating is the largest share of 6.4 GW of renewable energy procurement the state unveiled. Collectively, the offshore and onshore wind, solar, and hydroelectric projects will be able to power 2.6 million New York homes, the state said.
Europe and the UK thanks you (America) for your dollars!!
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: ... the thing that irks me about this and solar is that China essentially owns the supply chain for it. So, 85-87% of all solar and wind power proceeds go to China...
As with EV batteries which really pollute the world gathering the needed elements, not to mention slave labor, child labor, and unsafe labor conditions.
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 10-25-2023).]
Originally posted by cliffw: As with EV batteries which really pollute the world gathering the needed elements, not to mention slave labor, child labor, and unsafe labor conditions.
Could you add some facial expression and body language? That came across as someone just reading a line of dialogue from a script.
Originally posted by rinselberg: Could you add some facial expression and body language? That came across as someone just reading a line of dialogue from a script.
It was the line of dialogue. From my brain !
Can I do anything more for you green guru ?
I have seen at times that audio can be embedded in a post. Beyond my pay grade. "I want my enunciations and I want to use them now.
If you beg, I will add some olfactory punctuation.
Actually rinselberg, a long time ago, many many beers galaxies away, I questioned my illiteracy. I do okay but I lack body language (including facial expressions).
I consider body language, ... not exactly sure how. It's a talent. I believe there is body language educational schooling. Drama class in High School would be an introduction.
I pay attention. Sports announcers, news reporters and weather persons, politicians, commercial actors, many people have that linguistical talent.
That said, ... body language is like dancing. Do you dare do it in public ? rinselberg, do you sing in public, ?
Originally posted by maryjane: New York state has gotten on board with this whole US (USA USA USA!!) domestic thing, by promptly endorsing offshore contracts with four (count em--4!! ) European companies.
"The new awards, to projects under development by France's TotalEnergies (TTEF.PA), Germany's RWE (RWEG.DE), Britain's National Grid (NG.L), and Denmark's Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners (CIP), are still under negotiation... The more than 4 gigawatts of offshore wind power... is the largest share of 6.4 gigawatts of renewable energy the state has unveiled. Collectively, the offshore and onshore wind, solar, and hydroelectric projects will be able to power 2.6 million New York homes..."
Europe and the UK thanks you (America) for your dollars!!
If the projects go ahead, there have to be jobs for people in New York state or close by, along the Atlantic seaboard. They can design these projects in Europe, but how could this not create jobs for people over here, close to where the offshore wind energy projects are actually going to be built?
You can scroll backwards in this thread to "my" YouTube about the New Jersey Wind Port project that is already under development.
Reuters sez:
quote
New York is also committing $300 million to the development of offshore wind component manufacturing facilities planned by GE Vernova.
As these first offshore wind energy projects get underway, wouldn't it be not unlikely for these Europe-based companies to consider establishing additional design and planning facilities right here in the good old United States?
Diss it for other reasons, if you like, but dissing it just because these major contract awards are going to Europe-based companies? I diss that diss.
Have you ever seen how big offshore projects are built and assembled?
More often than not, the steel and concrete they are built of never see the land they are nearest to. It will be be spread out because terminal space is already a premium nearby.
This is no different than the land based wind farms, huge offshore drilling and production platforms, and even short lived drilling plays and I've certainly seen the boom/bust cycle of those projects. Jobs? Probably a lot of temporary jobs during construction phase but once the platforms are set, the only work is going to be maintenance and control. The unions will insist on getting their piece of the pie in the workboat construction, but that too will be temporary.
Total Energy/Rise has agreed to keep and retrain about 100 current Ravenswood power plant employees but that isn't 'new jobs'. Ravenswood will be shut down and Total will repurpose it's control room and just retrain those employees to do a similar job.. "Jobs could include operating the (wind turbine) project's control room, handling spare parts for servicing wind turbines and other logistics functions, the company said."
The thing about these projects (both on land and the offshore projects) that a lot of people don't understand.... These European companies don't only have the experience and engineering prowess to design the infrastructure, they , as ENERGY companies first and foremost, also are the 'operators' of the wind farms. THEY, get the proceeds from the power that is generated. IOW, for decades to come, they get the $$$ from every kw of power their turbines generate. This is USD going overseas, for decades to come even AFTER the blades first start turning in the wind. The $$ from the temporary construction jobs are a pittance compared to this coming outlay.
Already, some of these European companies are beginning to reconsider their ventures, even before the first tower is constructed because the New York regulators have denied their requests to charge more for power generated offshore. The requests were to cover increased costs due to inflation and supply chain shortages.
""Sunrise Wind's viability and therefore ability to be constructed are extremely challenged without this adjustment," Danish energy company Orsted CEO Americas David Hardy told Reuters in an email." (Oct 12, 2023)
On October 31, 2023, the Department of the Interior announced the approval of the construction and operation of the Coastal Virginia Offshore Wind Commercial (CVOW-C) project offshore Virginia. Located approximately 23.5 nautical miles east of Virginia Beach, Virginia, the approved version of the project will have an estimated capacity of about 2,600 megawatts of clean energy, capable of powering over 900,000 homes.
The Record of Decision (ROD) documents the decision to approve the construction of 176 wind turbines and three offshore substations within the lease area.
Try building an offshore wind energy installation without getting permitted by the U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Ocean Energy Management... you'd be spending your days and nights in a federal "crossbar hotel" before you could sink the first pylon.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 11-02-2023).]
Try building an offshore wind energy installation without getting permitted by the U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Ocean Energy Management... you'd be spending your days and nights in a federal "crossbar hotel" before you could sink the first pylon.
The U.S. Department of the Interior ? The Bureau of Ocean Energy Management ?
Quit bloviating.
Try building an onshore wind energy installation without getting permitted by YOUR overlords.
The U.S. Department of the Interior? The Bureau of Ocean Energy Management? Quit bloviating.
Try building an onshore wind energy installation without getting permitted by YOUR overlords.
I don't know what to make of that.
Did you think that when you were working in the oil fields, that the oil companies just decided to drill wherever they wanted, without getting permitted by the Department of the Interior?
I'm no expert when it comes to gas and oil extraction, but I can't imagine that the drill sites that employed you were not specifically authorized by the Department of the Interior.
Originally posted by rinselberg: I don't know what to make of that.
Did you think that when you were working in the oil fields, that the oil companies just decided to drill wherever they wanted, without getting permitted by the Department of the Interior?
I'm no expert when it comes to gas and oil extraction, but I can't imagine that the drill sites that employed you were not specifically authorized by the Department of the Interior.
You are no expert. Expect perhaps at being ignorant about the oil / gas drilling industry.
You started out being wrong. Did you think that the oil companies only drilled where they were told to drill, ?
Since he took office in 2018, New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy has been a strong supporter of renewable energy, and an ardent opponent of natural gas development. One of Murphy’s cornerstone projects has been a massive bet on offshore wind power to help combat climate change. That bet took a huge beating last Tuesday when Danish wind energy developer Orsted cancelled two large offshore wind development projects for the New Jersey coast. Orsted took this action, writing off $4 billion in the process, following massive losses it incurred in its North American projects, including New York as well, although it has not, yet, cancelled its projects in that neighboring State as it has now done in New Jersey.
Orsted’s initial project in New Jersey, called Ocean Wind 1, would have been that State’s first offshore wind farm. Ocean Wind 1 would have generated enough electricity to power 500,000 homes. The project was expected to come online in 2025. Ocean Wind 2, which was supposed to be the same size, was scheduled to begin generating energy for New Jersey in 2028.
However, on October 31, Orsted CEO Mads Nipper issued a statement in which he blamed the cancellation on “significant adverse developments from supply chain challenges, leading to delays in the project schedule, and rising interest rate.”
The sudden Orsted wind farm cancellation left the wind farm market in disarray and was a huge blow to Governor Murphy’s energy policies overall. Having previously taken strong action to kill natural gas projects such as the proposed Northeast Supply Enhancement Project in 2020, in heavy reliance on the expected benefits of wind power once Orsted 1 and 2 came online, Murphy now has nothing to replace that lost energy that would have been otherwise available – at generally lower cost – from the vast Marcellus Shale reserves in nearby Pennsylvania. The Governor’s policies, seemingly grounded more on wishful thinking than on reality, now look likely to throttle any New Jersey economic expansion in the short and medium term. Simply put, there are no feasible alternatives waiting in the wings to power New Jersey’s economy and serve its citizens, after Murphy put essentially all of his eggs in the wind power basket and lost that bet.
Meanwhile, the problems at Orsted are not unique to that company. Two other companies that signed contracts to build offshore wind projects in New York State also recently announced huge losses. Collectively, Norway's Equinor and BP of the United Kingdom, announced a total of $840 million in write-offs on their separate New York projects.
Siemens, the large German consortium, has also announced worse-than-expected losses in wind energy for fiscal year 2024. Indeed, the entirety of the wind industry globally appears to be running headlong into a huge economic problem. Even with the Inflation Reduction Act subsidies, given the convulsions in the wind market recently, there is no guarantee that any of these projects will work financially.
Recent words from Mads Nipper, Group President and CEO of Ørsted:
Revolution Wind (Connecticut and Rhode Island)
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Ørsted has today taken the final investment decision (FID) on the 704 MW Revolution Wind project, which Ørsted owns in a 50/50 partnership with Eversource. Onshore construction has started, and offshore construction will start in 2024, with the project expected to be completed in 2025. Notwithstanding the impairment of DKK 3.3 billion that Ørsted is recording in its Q3 results, Revolution Wind has an attractive forward-looking value creation with a forward-looking spread to WACC above Ørsted’s guided range.
Sunrise Wind (New York)
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Ørsted welcomes NYSERDA’s (New York State Energy Research and Development Authority) request for information on an accelerated solicitation for offshore wind capacity, which could provide an opportunity to rebid Sunrise Wind, which Ørsted owns in a 50/50 partnership with Eversource, at a price level that reflects current component and financing costs. Ørsted awaits the conditions of the request for proposal to determine whether to rebid or not.
Skipjack Wind (Maryland)
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Ørsted continues to reconfigure this project with minimal project spend and expects to have more clarity on its path forward in the Q4 2023 report as Ørsted continues discussions with stakeholders in Maryland.
Originally posted by cliffw: Do you think it is the noise which are killing whales, dolphins, and other aquatic mammals?
Underwater noise caused by humans is generally considered harmful to whales, dolphins and other marine mammals.
I've not seen where it's ever been described as beneficial to the animals.
But global warming is also a threat to these animals, and there's no doubt that if these animals could speak to us, and if we asked them about offshore wind energy, they would say "Bring it on!"
It's clearly better, from these animals' perspective, to kick global warming in the Aspercreme by replacing fossil fuels with climate friendly energy from offshore wind farms. They can live with the underwater noise from offshore wind energy, which is mostly during the construction phase, and curtains of air bubbles can be generated during the construction phase to reduce the impact of the construction noise on the animals.
Originally posted by rinselberg: Underwater noise caused by humans is generally considered harmful to whales, dolphins and other marine mammals.
Says who ? You ?
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Originally posted by rinselberg: I've not seen where it's ever been described as beneficial to the animals.
Cry me a river.
Say it with me. Acclimation.
How many marine mammals have been killed around oil / gas drilling platforms ?
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Originally posted by rinselberg: ... there's no doubt that if these animals could speak to us, and if we asked them about offshore wind energy, they would say "Bring it on!"
Let me guess. 97% of the Global Warmers would agree.
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Originally posted by rinselberg: It's clearly better, from these animals' perspective ...
Spain-headquartered Siemens Gamesa has scrapped its plans to create a major wind turbine manufacturing facility in Virginia.
The new plan is for the Siemens subsidiary to manufacture the major wind turbine components in Europe, and have them shipped across the Atlantic, where they will be used in Dominion Energy's "enormous" offshore wind energy project for Virginian Beach.
EXCERPT
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Robert McNab, an economist with Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Virginia, cautioned that projects being canceled now may come back—and even expand—once inflation and corresponding interest rates fall.
He noted that offshore wind isn’t the only industry that’s been affected. The calculus has changed for various other infrastructure projects, including those within the natural gas and petroleum industries.
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