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Swimming pool experts? Pool boy needs assistance. by Raydar
Started on: 04-04-2021 07:24 PM
Replies: 15 (170 views)
Last post by: williegoat on 04-06-2021 11:16 AM
Raydar
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Report this Post04-04-2021 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sorry. Not what you think.

I'm setting up pumps and sand filters for a large above-ground dock diving pool. (It's a dog sport. Google it, if you're interested.)

All the hardware was bought secondhand. We are using Hayward Vari-Flo XL valves. (They have various functions aside from filtering. You can switch them to backwash, recirculate without filtering, waste (used to drain the pool quickly), etc.

My question is... is it normal for a bit of water to escape through the "waste" port, when the filter is in normal operation? Or is something worn or dried out in the valve.
The valves are not stupidly expensive, but I don't want to replace them if new ones are going to act the same.

Also... Both the drain port and the return port of the filters/pumps/valves are below the surface of the water. Is this going to cause a problem? (The drain port on the pool is just above ground level, plumbed straight to the pump. The return port on the pool is about a foot below the surface of the pool water, and about five inches above the return port on the filter/valve. So the pump is pumping "uphill" both ways. On the face of it, I didn't see a problem, but after consideration I realized that it might be.)

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-04-2021).]

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Report this Post04-04-2021 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MidEngineManiacSend a Private Message to MidEngineManiacEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'd never heard of that sport before now, but it seems to me you will get furthest along that ruler using a small dog and a big slingshot.



(I'd guess the valve seat/ seal is worn or has some crud stuck in there stopping it from fully closing)
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maryjane
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Report this Post04-04-2021 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

Sorry. Not what you think.

I'm setting up pumps and sand filters for a large above-ground dock diving pool. (It's a dog sport. Google it, if you're interested.)

All the hardware was bought secondhand. We are using Hayward Vari-Flo XL valves. (They have various functions aside from filtering. You can switch them to backwash, recirculate without filtering, waste (used to drain the pool quickly), etc.

My question is... is it normal for a bit of water to escape through the "waste" port, when the filter is in normal operation? Or is something worn or dried out in the valve.
The valves are not stupidly expensive, but I don't want to replace them if new ones are going to act the same.

Also... Both the drain port and the return port of the filters/pumps/valves are below the surface of the water. Is this going to cause a problem? (The drain port on the pool is just above ground level, plumbed straight to the pump. The return port on the pool is about a foot below the surface of the pool water, and about five inches above the return port on the filter/valve. So the pump is pumping "uphill" both ways. On the face of it, I didn't see a problem, but after consideration I realized that it might be.)

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.


No. not normal.
Diverter or Spider gasket or is 'probably' bad. Could also be a weak or corroded diverter spring.


I don't know anything about where the valve should be placed in relation to top of water level.

There is a website, which I think is named 'in yo pool' (all one word) that has a big write up on the variflo valves.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-04-2021).]

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Raydar
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Report this Post04-04-2021 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

No. not normal.
Diverter or Spider gasket or is 'probably' bad. Could also be a weak or corroded diverter spring.


I don't know anything about where the valve should be placed in relation to top of water level.

There is a website, which I think is named 'in yo pool' (all one word) that has a big write up on the variflo valves.



Thank you very much. I'll check it out.
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maryjane
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Report this Post04-04-2021 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I use a similar 7 position multi-directional valve on my high volume pasture spray unit. You must not switch valve positions while the pump is running. It allows the pressure to get between the gasket and it's mating face and lift the gasket, causing it to tear when you turn to the next position.
here it is:
http://www.inyopools.com/Ho...e.aspx?CommentPage=1

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-04-2021).]

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cliffw
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Report this Post04-04-2021 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
You must not switch valve positions while the pump is running. It allows the pressure to get between the gasket and it's mating face and lift the gasket, causing it to tear when you turn to the next position.


Ok. I know nothing about what you are talking about, ... but ... I know a lot about valves, pumps and running pressure loaded pumps.

It's possible to switch valve positions while a pump is running and a line is pressurized. You gradually open one while another is being gradually closed.. Equalizing the pressure.
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cliffw
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Report this Post04-04-2021 10:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
Ok. I know nothing about what you are talking about, ...


Ah, ... you only have one valve.

Perhaps you can upgrade to a two vale system ?

I still have no idea of what I am talking about.
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williegoat
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Report this Post04-04-2021 10:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:


Ok. I know nothing about what you are talking about, ... but ... I know a lot about valves, pumps and running pressure loaded pumps.

It's possible to switch valve positions while a pump is running and a line is pressurized. You gradually open one while another is being gradually closed.. Equalizing the pressure.

Not on the kind of valve maryjane is talking about. Look at the picture in his link.

When you push down on the handle to turn the valve, everything is open at once and there is not much to hold the gasket in place.
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williegoat
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Report this Post04-04-2021 10:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

williegoat

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Member since Mar 2009
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:


Ah, ... you only have one valve.

Perhaps you can upgrade to a two vale system ?

I still have no idea of what I am talking about.

I used to have one of those "rotary" type valves, but when I replaced my filter (years ago) my new one had something more like a spool valve. It just goes up and down.

Still, we are just talking about mostly rubber and plastic.

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 04-04-2021).]

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maryjane
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Report this Post04-04-2021 10:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:


Ok. I know nothing about what you are talking about, ... but ... I know a lot about valves, pumps and running pressure loaded pumps.

It's possible to switch valve positions while a pump is running and a line is pressurized. You gradually open one while another is being gradually closed.. Equalizing the pressure.

Generally, in these applications where a multi function/multi position valve is used, there is no other valve. None needed or desirable.
I've been using the same multi position valve for about 10 years now. Trouble free as long as they are flushed out occasionally and ya don't let them freeze.


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maryjane
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Report this Post04-04-2021 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

I used to have one of those "rotary" type valves, but when I replaced my filter (years ago) my new one had something more like a spool valve. It just goes up and down.

Still, we are just talking about mostly rubber and plastic.



Yep, mostly non metallic, in Raydar's case anyway.

Mine is a little heavier, with stainless/alum/and plastic parts, but it can handle up to 300 psi according to the manual.
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Raydar
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Report this Post04-05-2021 10:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I know not to leave the pump running when changing positions. Not to say that it was done properly by the previous owners.
Thanks!
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Report this Post04-06-2021 12:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwClick Here to Email cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:

I used to have one of those "rotary" type valves, ...


I know that as a "ball valve". The mechanism which allows flow is actually a ball with a hole through it which allows flow. One 90 degree turn counter clockwise opens it. Most have stops which only let you open it that way (ensuring it is fully open), and then must be turned 90 degrees clockwise to close it. When the control handle is inline with the "pipe", the valve is open. When the handle is ... off to the side of the "pipe", the valve is closed.

 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:
... when I replaced my filter (years ago) my new one had something more like a spool valve. It just goes up and down.


I know that as a "gate" valve. It is basically a block off "paddle" which goes up and down either blocking or allowing flow.

 
quote
Originally posted by williegoat:
Still, we are just talking about mostly rubber and plastic.


Valves actually are mildly complexed. They have "seats" and "packing", heh, just like pumps.

Why am I spouting off ? I don't know other than I am reminiscent of my oil field days. I probably should study Radar's original post.

 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
My question is... is it normal for a bit of water to escape through the "waste" port, when the filter is in normal operation? Or is something worn or dried out in the valve.
The valves are not stupidly expensive, but I don't want to replace them if new ones are going to act the same.


Household valves (kitchen sink, bath room sink and tub, hot water heater, water hose) also have seats and packing. Consumable items, such as a vehicle's air and oil filters. Some are non- servicable, throw a-ways, as you said not expensive, ie cheap. You get what you pay for.

Eventually Radar, the valves you are talking about, I think they can act the same, later rather than sooner. They wear out, but many do have "repair kits".

I would not think it is normal for a bit of water to escape through the "waste" port, when the filter is in normal operation? A valve is a containment device. Just as a filter is. Dammit. What is a waste port ? Now I am going to have to Duck Duck Go "Dock Diving Pool".

pause

I don't believe it, . Dock Dog Diving competitions. Maybe one day I will have seen everything. Eh, more power and fun to those.

 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
Also... Both the drain port and the return port of the filters/pumps/valves are below the surface of the water. Is this going to cause a problem? (The drain port on the pool is just above ground level, plumbed straight to the pump. The return port on the pool is about a foot below the surface of the pool water, and about five inches above the return port on the filter/valve. So the pump is pumping "uphill" both ways. On the face of it, I didn't see a problem, but after consideration I realized that it might be.)


I have worked with many submerged fluid lines. Both suction and discharge. Duck Duck Go did not give me the schematics of the plumbing system. My long long time friend has a in-ground pool. His pump is above ground. A leak on the suction side would suck air, into the system, and possibly cavitate the pump, rendering it compromised, useless or weak.

I would need the schematics. Pumps do not pump uphill both ways.
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Raydar
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Report this Post04-06-2021 06:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update...
The spider gasket is part of the diverter. The whole assembly is like $40. The gauges on both valves need to be replaced. One is damaged, and the other seems to be wildly inaccurate. $15 a pop.
I'm not sure what other abuse may have been inflicted upon these things, since the previous owner had the pool set up for salt water.
New-in-the-box valves are less than $100. I opted to just replace them. (There was at least one review that stated that the new diverter/gasket assembly did not fix the issue. Kind of implied that the housing may have warped.)

Thanks all, for the advice.

Edit - I found a pic of a setup similar to ours. (Our filter and valve are a bit different, however.)



The skimmer/drain that feeds the pump is on the bottom left. The return line to the pool is connected to the upper right.
So I see that it's not pumping "uphill" both ways. In fact it's just circulating the water from bottom to top. So it may be "a wash".

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 04-06-2021).]

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maryjane
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Report this Post04-06-2021 11:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:
I know that as a "ball valve". The mechanism which allows flow is actually a ball with a hole through it which allows flow. One 90 degree turn counter clockwise opens it. Most have stops which only let you open it that way (ensuring it is fully open), and then must be turned 90 degrees clockwise to close it. When the control handle is inline with the "pipe", the valve is open. When the handle is ... off to the side of the "pipe", the valve is closed.

Rotary valve and a ball valve are completely different. Ball valves almost always have only 2 positions. Open or closed.
Rotary diverter valves are also only open or closed, but have several positions that allow for diverting the flow to more than one destination.
As the handle is rotated, the body of the valve moves from one port to another, connecting different outlet ports to the supply/pressure port.
I believe Raydar's valve allows for 3 different port settings. Mine allows for 7.
The part that has probably failed in Raydar's rotary valve:

 
quote
I know that as a "gate" valve. It is basically a block off "paddle" which goes up and down either blocking or allowing flow.

Gate valve and a spool valve are completely different from each other and different than a rotary valve.

You generally find spool valves in hydraulic systems, and they're called spool valves because the active part (spool) looks like a series of sewing thread spools. You will see them in automatic transmission valve bodies too. Really good ones are closely machined surfaces requiring no orings on the spool lands. Others will need o rings.
Some brake master cylinders use 1 or 2 spool valves too. One is a pilot to the other, usually in air over hyd brake systems.



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Report this Post04-06-2021 11:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for williegoatClick Here to visit williegoat's HomePageSend a Private Message to williegoatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Guy with Toothbrush on Hat

I know that as a "ball valve". The mechanism which allows flow is actually a ball with a hole through it which allows flow. One 90 degree turn counter clockwise opens it. Most have stops which only let you open it that way (ensuring it is fully open), and then must be turned 90 degrees clockwise to close it. When the control handle is inline with the "pipe", the valve is open. When the handle is ... off to the side of the "pipe", the valve is closed.

 
quote

I know that as a "gate" valve. It is basically a block off "paddle" which goes up and down either blocking or allowing flow.

These are not ball or gate valves. Rather than simple on/off valves, these redirect the flow. I put "rotary" in quotes, because I don't know the correct term and the only application that I am personally familiar with is for swimming pools. The closest thing I could think of is the rotary disk valves used for intake timing on some 2-strokes, e.g. GP bikes and some Kaws. I used spool valve properly. Think of hydraulic controls such as the valve body on an automatic transmission or the control valves on a forklift.

 
quote

Why am I spouting off ? I don't know other than I am reminiscent of my oil field days. I probably should study Radar's original post.

Your Tutu's too tight.
 
quote

Where's the big kaboom?

edit: maryjane beat me to the punch, once again.

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 04-06-2021).]

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