I see people framing this as a "thing" that's suddenly being caused or pushed by liberals and progressives.
The Dr Seuss children's books and drawings have been problematic for educators for many years now, if not decades.
Dr Seuss Enterprises, which owns the publishing rights for these books, discontinued exactly 6 of the more than 60 Dr Seuss books. Of the 6 that are discontinued, 4 are not well known. The 2 other discontinued books are more well known, but not as well known and widely appreciated as "The Cat in the Hat."
According to what I read, Dr Seuss Enterprises has had internal discussions about this for a full year before finally deciding to announce the discontinuation of the 6 books a few weeks ago.
There's an ethos here, about some of these Pennock's messages, that this is like an Executive Order from President Biden, or an edict from Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi or AOC. That the U.S. Department of Education or Health and Human Services has proclaimed that all of the existing copies of these books must be turned over to the government to be burned.
It's nothing of the sort.
So this has suddenly become a "thing" like a pushcart on wheels--but who's pushing this cart? Who's putting their shoulders into this and making the cart roll?
So this has suddenly become a "thing" like a pushcart on wheels--but who's pushing this cart? Who's putting their shoulders into this and making the cart roll?
I see people framing this as a "thing" that's suddenly being caused or pushed by liberals and progressives.
SNIP
There's an ethos here, about some of these Pennock's messages, that this is like an Executive Order from President Biden, or an edict from Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi or AOC. That the U.S. Department of Education or Health and Human Services has proclaimed that all of the existing copies of these books must be turned over to the government to be burned.
It's nothing of the sort.
So this has suddenly become a "thing" like a pushcart on wheels--but who's pushing this cart? Who's putting their shoulders into this and making the cart roll?
Again, perspective is ultimately important. Yours and the left.
Originally posted by rinselberg: I see people framing this as a "thing" that's suddenly being caused or pushed by liberals and progressives.
Who do you think is doing it ?
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Originally posted by rinselberg: The Dr Seuss children's books and drawings have been problematic for educators for many years now, if not decades.
Yet no "cat with a hat" knew about it till the "Cancel Culture Cancel Life" era started after "safe spaces" ?
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Originally posted by rinselberg: According to what I read, Dr Seuss Enterprises has had internal discussions about this for a full year before finally deciding to announce the discontinuation of the 6 books a few weeks ago.
Here is a song for you. Replace the word "light" with "dark".
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Originally posted by rinselberg: There's an ethos here, about some of these Pennock's messages, that this is like an Executive Order from President Biden, or an edict from Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi or AOC. That the U.S. Department of Education or Health and Human Services has proclaimed that all of the existing copies of these books must be turned over to the government to be burned.
It's nothing of the sort.
It started back with "safe spaces".
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Originally posted by rinselberg: So this has suddenly become a "thing" like a pushcart on wheels--but who's pushing this cart? Who's putting their shoulders into this and making the cart roll?
When the Republican House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy took to YouTube to play the "Seuss card" he read from "Green Eggs and Ham."
But that's not one of the 6 Dr Seuss books that were discontinued by Dr Seuss Enterprises.
Why did Kevin McCarthy read from "Green Eggs and Ham" and not one of the newly discontinued books like "If I Ran the Zoo"..? Or “And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street"..?
Could it be because if Kevin McCarthy had gone on YouTube with any of the 6 discontinued Dr Seuss books in hand, other people could have gone on YouTube, or Twitter, or on-air at CNN or MSNBC, or in print at the New York Times and other newspapers, to point out some of the illustrations in those books? Illustrations of native Africans like--well, this:
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
Or illustrations of Chinese men organized as teams of porters, carrying zoo animals in cages and obviously Caucasian zookeepers on their obviously Chinese backs?
Of course, people could have done that anyway, and I guess already have, but it would have had extra "punch" if Kevin McCarthy had used any of the 6 newly discontinued books as his stage prop, instead of "Green Eggs and Ham."
It's like Kevin McCarthy wanted to protest some public school's disposition of "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" by reading from "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court."
"Lawmakers Push to Ban ‘1619 Project’ From Schools" Sarah Schwartz for EducationWeek; February 3, 2021.
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The school curriculum linked to the New York Times’ 1619 Project— an initiative that aims to reframe U.S. history by putting the legacy of slavery and the contributions of Black Americans at its center—is once again the target of Republican lawmakers, who seek to ban the materials in three states.
The three bills, recently introduced by state legislators in Arkansas, Iowa, and Mississippi, argue that the lessons misrepresent U.S. history. The Arkansas and Mississippi bills call the 1619 Project “a racially divisive and revisionist account;” the Iowa bill claims that it “attempts to deny or obfuscate the fundamental principles upon which the United States was founded.”
All propose that school districts choosing to use the curriculum lose part of their state funding, in proportion to the time and resources devoted to teaching the material.
. . .
The bills all use the same or similar language as legislation proposed in July by U.S. Senator Tom Cotton, a Republican from Arkansas, who sought to ban all U.S. schools from using the materials.
Now you may not like what you've seen or heard about the 1619 Project. You may not like it because it's connected to the New York Times. You may agree with the language in these bills that have been put before state legislatures, that the 1619 Project is "a racially divisive and revisionist account" and that it "attempts to deny or obfuscate the fundamental principles upon which the United States was founded."
But don't pretend that it's only "Leftists" that want to ban books and literature (etc.) that they do not like or agree with.
Unless you think that these Republican state legislators in Arkansas, Mississippi and Iowa are "Leftists."
More excerpts from the article:
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Stefanie Wager, the president of the National Council for the Social Studies, said that she sees “a little bit of irony in the bills.” While Republican lawmakers usually champion the right to free speech, they’re now attempting to quell dissenting voices in the classroom, she said.
Wager has heard frustration from members in state councils that lawmakers are choosing to intervene on this one resource, when materials selection is “normally a non-issue” in these states. The Iowa Council for the Social Studies mentioned this in a statement to Education Week, writing that the proposed legislation would “take away local control and dictate what can and cannot be taught in Iowa,” which would be “inconsistent” with the ICSS’ values.
. . .
While the 1619 Project has seen popularity with many teachers, it’s also faced criticism from some historians, who object to the interpretations and conclusions that the essays draw—such as the claim that one of the primary reasons the colonies decided to declare independence was to preserve the institution of slavery.
But these critiques shouldn’t preclude teachers from bringing the material into their classrooms, Zimmerman said. Teachers don’t have to—and in fact, shouldn’t—present the 1619 Project’s conclusions as “unalloyed truth,” Zimmerman argues. The goal isn’t just to replace one narrative with another.
“Any good social studies teacher is certainly using a variety of things in their classroom, and asking their students to critique what they are reading,” said Wager of NCSS. “The work of historians, the work of social studies teachers, is engaging students in uncovering that evidence, and challenging and weighing that evidence. To try to squash that, or stop that in any way, is not the mark of a quality social studies educator.”
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Originally posted by randye:
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-09-2021).]
What do you think the odds are that they'll be forthcoming about mixed race people? Because right now Bob Marley, Barack Obama, Meghan Markle, Hidden Figures subject Kathrine Johnson, Sally Hemming are called "Black". Sally had one African grandparent.
Similarly, the Cherokee Indian who wrote their language, named Seqoyah, was half White.
Originally posted by sourmash: What do you think the odds are that they'll be forthcoming about mixed race people? Because right now Bob Marley, Barack Obama, Meghan Markle, Hidden Figures subject Kathrine Johnson, Sally Hemming are called "Black". Sally had one African grandparent.
Similarly, the Cherokee Indian who wrote their language, named Seqoyah, was half White.
Going back to that same article that I just posted:
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Teachers don’t have to—and in fact, shouldn’t—present the 1619 Project’s conclusions as “unalloyed truth,” [Zimmerman argues.] The goal isn’t just to replace one narrative with another.
Maybe a teacher or even a student will bring that up (about mixed heritage) if the 1619 Project or some other material that they are using falls short on that point.
Where does that take this thread?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-09-2021).]
If post a cartoon of an American with a gun and and burger that is now rascist as it is a stereo type. Watch everything erode from here. Real problem is not enough people say it is nonsense.
Agreed.
or...the ones that do get mufffled and cancelled, or the kids get brainwashed not to listen to them.
Maybe a teacher or even a student will bring that up (about mixed heritage) if the 1619 Project or some other material that they are using falls short on that point.
Where does that take this thread?
It was rhetorical. We know the systemic and institutional racism will cancel the White content of these people's DNA in the same way HIDDEN FIGURES used a Black actor for portrayal and history books delete White paternity of Seqoyah.
Originally posted by sourmash: It was rhetorical. We know the systemic and institutional racism will cancel the White content of these people's DNA in the same way HIDDEN FIGURES used a Black actor for portrayal and history books delete White paternity of Seqoyah.
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Inventor of the Cherokee syllabary, Sequoyah, also known as George Guess or Gist, was probably born in the late 1770s at Tuskegee, which now lies under Tellico Lake in Tennessee. Although his paternity is debated (he may have been the son of Nathaniel Gist, a Virginia soldier at Fort Loudoun, or of George Gist, a Dutch peddler) he was probably the son of the former. His mother was Wurteh, a full-blood Cherokee and sister of Old Tassel, a Cherokee chief.
I'm not as informed about "Hidden Figures" as I should be for my role as an online messages board raconteur, or raconteur wannabe.
I take it that the movie portrays a woman that was actually of mixed ancestry, the daughter of a white parent and a black parent? And this aspect of it has not been brought forward in the movie itself or in the mainstream media's coverage of the movie? That the Liberal Establishment is fobbing off the protagonist of "Hidden Figures" as a "black" woman (period) when she was actually a woman of mixed ancestry?
Without having seen "Hidden Figures" I am hard put to comment on the movie or the media coverage of it in any depth. Some people negged the "Schindler's List" movie for glossing over the equally heroic role of Schindler's wife Emilie. I think of it as "artistic limitations" of a movie that was presented as a dramatic account and not a documentary.
And so my train of thought has led me to Submit Reply Station.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-09-2021).]
Originally posted by rinselberg: [QUOTE]Inventor of the Cherokee syllabary, Sequoyah, also known as George Guess or Gist, was probably born in the late 1770s at Tuskegee, which now lies under Tellico Lake in Tennessee. Although his paternity is debated (he may have been the son of Nathaniel Gist, a Virginia soldier at Fort Loudoun, or of George Gist, a Dutch peddler) he was probably the son of the former. His mother was Wurteh, a full-blood Cherokee and sister of Old Tassel, a Cherokee chief.
Yeah, and it isn't taught that he was half White. Just like all history, you can find the truth, truth that isn't taught part of the curriculum. The ancient Egyptians weren't Black. In fact they have more Black DNA today than back then. Hannibal wasn't Black, etc..
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I'm all in favor of more accurate history books.
I'm not as informed about "Hidden Figures" as I should be for my role as an online messages board raconteur, or raconteur wannabe.
I take it that the movie portrays a woman that was actually of mixed ancestry, the daughter of a white parent and a black parent? And this aspect of it has not been brought forward in the movie itself or in the mainstream media's coverage of the movie? That the Liberal Establishment is fobbing off the protagonist of "Hidden Figures" as a "black" woman (period) when she was actually a woman of mixed ancestry?
Without having seen "Hidden Figures" I am hard put to comment on the movie or the media coverage of it in any depth. Some people negged the "Schindler's List" movie for glossing over the equally heroic role of Schindler's wife Emilie. I think of it as "artistic limitations" of a movie that was presented as a dramatic account and not a documentary. And so my train of thought has led me to Submit Reply Station.
Never seen List, because Speilberg is FOS.
Hidden Figures is about Black women, not mixed race women. Kathrine Johnson was mostly White. Eyes are almost clear. She was Black by govt standards, not real ones.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 03-09-2021).]
"Dr. Seuss controversy reaches local shelves as Chicago Public Library pulls 6 books over racist, insensitive imagery"
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Chicago libraries are temporarily pulling six Dr. Seuss books from their shelves after Dr. Seuss Enterprises said it would stop publishing them over racist and insensitive imagery.
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The libraries will keep the books for reference copies until they determine a longer-term solution.
It's me (bet you didn't see that coming) but earlier in this thread.
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Originally posted by rinselberg: [It's a false pretense] to say that it's only "Leftists" that want to ban books and literature (etc.) that they do not like or agree with.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-11-2021).]
By going with "Burn the books! Books are evil!" Hudini is moving away from any reality in the conversation.
Removing the books from the library is just the same as burning them. It's removing ideas and thought unapproved by the government. Therefore my analogy is on point.
As stated, Mein Kampf is still available. Why the difference?
Maybe they are going to move the 6 Dr Seuss books from the library's child books section to the adult books section. Maybe a person who wants to borrow any of these books will have to sign a little piece of paper that says "The book you are borrowing includes racial stereotypes that Chicago public schools have determined to be inappropriate for children." Maybe the librarian is supposed to have a look at the person who is borrowing any of these books to see if they look old enough to be in high school.
It's not "book burning."
At least not yet, pending on what the "longer-term solution" turns out to be.
Calling it "book burning" is debasing the currency of the English language--just as the profligate and overridingly indiscriminate references to "Leftists" (etc.) that have long emanated from one particular Pennock's user account undermines any logic or reality and similarly debases the currency of the English language, as evidenced here: //www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/126265-2.html#p48
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-11-2021).]
Originally posted by rinselberg: Calling it "book burning" is debasing the currency of the English language-- ...
Debasing the currency of the English language ? Like "the affordable care act", our new 1.9 trillion dollar "Kung Flu relief act which only 9% is for the Kung Flu, ... the list is long.
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Originally posted by rinselberg: "Dr. Seuss controversy reaches local shelves as Chicago Public Library pulls 6 books over racist, insensitive imagery" [QUOTE][SIZE=2]Chicago libraries are temporarily pulling six Dr. Seuss books from their shelves after Dr. Seuss Enterprises said it would stop publishing them over racist and insensitive imagery.
Maybe they are going to move the 6 Dr Seuss books from the library's child books section to the adult books section. Maybe a person who wants to borrow any of these books will have to sign a little piece of paper that says "The book you are borrowing includes racial stereotypes that Chicago public schools have determined to be inappropriate for children." Maybe the librarian is supposed to have a look at the person who is borrowing any of these books to see if they look old enough to be in high school.
It's not "book burning."
At least not yet, pending on what the "longer-term solution" turns out to be.
Calling it "book burning" is debasing the currency of the English language--just as the profligate and overridingly indiscriminate references to "Leftists" (etc.) that have long emanated from one particular Pennock's user account undermines any logic or reality and similarly debases the currency of the English language, as evidenced here: //www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/126265-2.html#p48
OK, now you’re dancing on quicksand. What about* the use, by leftist book burners, of such terms as terrorist and insurrection, or the wholesale production of such imaginary words as “homophobic” or “cisgender”? Much like the whining of the “woke”, it goes on forever.
I see people framing this as a "thing" that's suddenly being caused or pushed by liberals and progressives. ... There's an ethos here, about some of these Pennock's messages, that this is like an Executive Order from President Biden, or an edict from Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi or AOC. That the U.S. Department of Education or Health and Human Services has proclaimed that all of the existing copies of these books must be turned over to the government to be burned.
There was an episode where Sylvester got paint spilled on his back giving him a skunk stripe. This apparently excited the sexually confused Pepe. I suppose the woke should cancel Sylvester for refusing Pepe's advances. Sylvester is overtly homophobic, probably a Trump supporter.
Pepé makes a more obvious cameo in Dog Pounded (1954), where he is attracted to Sylvester after the latter tried to get around a pack of guard dogs, in his latest attempt to capture and eat Tweety, by painting a white stripe down his back (in Pepé's only appearance in a Freleng short).
Seems this is from the late 90's- early 00's
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Pepé would later appear in the episode "Is Paris Stinking" (once again voiced by Greg Burson), where he pursues Sylvester who is unintentionally dressed in drag. Pepé would appear once more in Tweety's High-Flying Adventure, falling in love with both Sylvester and Penelope (Sylvester had gotten a white stripe on his back from Penelope as they fought over Tweety), actually showing a preference for Sylvester.
OK, now you’re dancing on quicksand. What about* the use, by leftist book burners, of such terms as terrorist and insurrection, or the wholesale production of such imaginary words as “homophobic” or “cisgender”? Much like the whining of the “woke”, it goes on forever.
Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument.
~ Google.
Even if I were to accept without argument these "points" from williegoat, it wouldn't nullify or detract from the veritas of the assertions that I've made previously in this thread; to wit:
quote
[Please do not] pretend that it's only "Leftists" that want to ban books and literature (etc.) that they do not like or agree with.
The profligate and overridingly indiscriminate references to "Leftists" (etc.) that have long emanated from one particular Pennock's user account undermines any logic or reality and . . . debases the currency of the English language.
I assert that these two assertions are not "dancing on quicksand." They are as firmly anchored in reality as are the foundations of a modern skyscraper firmly anchored in the granite bedrock below.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-11-2021).]
I assert that these two assertions are not "dancing on quicksand." They are as firmly anchored in reality as are the foundations of a modern skyscraper firmly anchored in the granite bedrock below.
What I was saying is that if you object to the metaphorical use of the phrase "book burning" as "debasing the currency of the English language", then you should also be able to see how so many words and phrases that are misused by the left also make it difficult to communicate clearly and accurately.
A protester is not an insurrectionist and one who literally burns down a city block is not a protester.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 03-11-2021).]
What I was saying is that if you object to the metaphorical use of the phrase "book burning" as "debasing the currency of the English language", then you should also be able to see how so many words and phrases that are misused by the left also make it difficult to communicate clearly and accurately.
A protester is not an insurrectionist and one who literally burns down a city block is not a protester.
I have seen how the currency of the English language has been debased by those among the Left who are not consistently standing apart from and opposing all rioters, arsonists and murderers that decorate their crimes with BLM and Antifa-style flags and slogans. I condemn that when I see it. I certainly condemn the idea of that happening, although we might look at certain moments and statements from Kamala Harris (an obvious example) and disagree as to how to categorize her. But I certainly condemn the idea of politicians being the apologists and protectors of those kinds of criminals.
The tangibility and the accuracy of the way that I have categorized "one Pennock's user account in particular" as having debased the currency of the English language with profligate and indiscriminate harping on "Leftists" (etc.) to the exclusion of all other aspects of reality is beyond any shadow of doubt. It towers above the Pennock's Totally O/T landscape like the summit of Mount Everest towers above the line of demarcation that separates Nepal from the People's Republic of China.
When that is combined with a remarkably vulgar and unreasonably hostile attitude towards any other forum member that sees "it" differently (whatever the "it" that's in question) it creates a foul miasma indeed.
When you look at the words that emanate most frequently from that account, such as the uppercase BULLSHIT or BULLCRAP, and the directly accusatorial language of the messaging, and the fetish-like deployment of innumerable and conspicuously oversized images and memes, as if the undisguised purpose is to jam the signals [so to speak] of a contentious discussion using radio spectrum noise [Electronic Warfare terminology]--when you look at all that--what do you see?
I see the online messages board equivalent of a clogged and overflowing toilet.
But it could be even worse, as indeed it was for many years prior to August 15, 2020.
That's a good thing.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-11-2021).]
The tangibility and the accuracy of the way that I have categorized "one Pennock's user account in particular" as having debased the currency of the English language with profligate and indiscriminate harping on "Leftists" (etc.) to the exclusion of all other aspects of reality is beyond any shadow of doubt. It towers above the Pennock's Totally O/T landscape like the summit of Mount Everest towers above the border that separates China from Nepal.
Your statement, "Calling it "book burning" is debasing the currency of the English language", implicates the language rather than the one who uses that language. Sometimes, in your quest for clarity, your language becomes awkwardly convoluted, and less than concise.
Just an observation from an old retired gearjammer.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 03-11-2021).]
A business decides not to sell one of their products, after receiving virtually no social blowback, and the Right calls it cancel culture. Color me surprised.
It takes about two minutes to see that the publishing company did their own internal review and made this decision themselves. That’s not cancel culture; it’s capitalism.
As a very firm believer in capitalism, I couldn’t care less about this decision.
Because Al, Jesse or BLM have never descended upon any corporation with a false narrative to extort funds, power of publicity for their form of social justice.
Yeah, past activities have that shadow. Better to get in front of it.
"Past activities" (to quote from sourmash) can cast light, as well as shadow.
In this case, the people of Dr Seuss Enterprises have "seen the light."
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Dr. Seuss Enterprises, working with a panel of experts, including educators, reviewed our catalog of titles and made the decision last year [2020] to cease publication and licensing of the following titles: And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street, If I Ran the Zoo, McElligot’s Pool, On Beyond Zebra!, Scrambled Eggs Super!, and The Cat’s Quizzer. These books portray people in ways that are hurtful and wrong.
What freedom would remain for publishers, to decide whether to continue or discontinue the publication of their books, if it's all explained as being controlled (ala sourmash) by Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Black Lives Matter; etc?
CLICK FOR FULL SIZE
Most people categorize these Dr Seuss books as children's books. Some Republican legislators and office holders and their friends at Fox News and Newsmax and on Twitter and other social media platforms have been remonstrating as if these were adult level books that were discontinued. These Cancel Culture-obsessed wackos are all about politics as performance art instead of governing.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-11-2021).]
If I do or watch or listen to something you dont like or approve of...
