Originally posted by maryjane: Don't believe everything you think
You are free to believe everything you think. Even believing I believe everything I think. I never said "I believe" the purported 500,000 kung flu deaths were due to kung flu. As was purported to be the cause of death, by the CDC which you THINK have the ultimate true facts. I think it is way less than that, perhaps by half.
The CDC has proven over and over that they have not had a clue from the beginning of this pandemic / panic-demic. Do you trust their facts ?
How 'bout Dr Fauci ? Do you believe his BS ? They have both been all over the map.
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Originally posted by maryjane: You've stated nothing BUT opinion, mostly your own. No data, no science, just spurious & somewhat specious that you now ask other to disprove.
It really seems that the CDC and Fauci also spout opinions, as do you. That's fine. If the CDC and Fauci really cared, they could do a better job of allowing me and MANY others to think I believe them.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by maryjane: One can choose to be informed or misinformed. You have chosen the latter. Donald Trump did the same thing and it ultimately cost him the re-election.
Originally posted by cliffw: There are lies, damb lies, and statistics. Of that 500,000 made up deaths, which I think is half of that, how many committed Covid Suicide by they themselves not wearing masks. How many are persons who committed Covid Suicide by choosing to be unhealthy ?
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Originally posted by maryjane: You are welcome to prove those case numbers wrong, with facts and data, or you can continue to cast unproven rhetoric and baseless insinuations.
I call the CDC death count unproven rhetoric and baseless insinuations. They are the American version of the World Health Organization (WHO).
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Originally posted by maryjane: As I expected. Your reply is classic CliffW. Emptiness with a side order of more questions.
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Originally posted by maryjane: One can choose to be informed or misinformed. You have chosen the latter.
Wrong again.
My questions are not to be treated as if I am clueless and begging for insight. I am posing the questions only for some who might not have considered them. I find my own answers by asking questions.
You want proof of my thoughts ? Perhaps you would trust the CDC
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A group of researchers whose work has been cited by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is accusing the agency of ignoring their positive findings about low transmission rates in schools and putting out overly stringent school reopening guidelines.
Originally posted by cliffw: I call the CDC death count unproven rhetoric and baseless insinuations.
Based upon 'street sense'? Prove those #s wrong.
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Wrong again.
My questions are not to be treated as if I am clueless and begging for insight. I am posing the questions only for some who might not have considered them. I find my own answers by asking questions.
You want proof of my thoughts ? Perhaps you would trust the CDC
[QUOTE] A group of researchers whose work has been cited by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is accusing the agency of ignoring their positive findings about low transmission rates in schools and putting out overly stringent school reopening guidelines. Click to show
CDC has to provide recommendations for the nation as a whole, not just one state (such as Wisconsin) nor does it take into consideration just the students. By the researcher's own report, the incident of infection was higher within faculty and staff. Students are only a portion of the bigger picture that CDC has to consider. There are nearly 7 million people employed as teachers and staff in public schools alone in the US. If one assumes (we should) that most are married, that potentally affected number reaches 14 million. CDC is not USA's equivalent to WHO.
MJ, you are right, the Government will never lie to you. It always has your best interest in mind.
The CDC would never be driven by the fact that it's receiving four times the amount of funding it's ever received in the history of the organization. All the state health officials who have said that they list death by car accident a COVID death if the person has COVID at the time, are wrong.
MJ, you are right, the Government will never lie to you. It always has your best interest in mind.
The CDC would never be driven by the fact that it's receiving four times the amount of funding it's ever received in the history of the organization. All the state health officials who have said that they list death by car accident a COVID death if the person has COVID at the time, are wrong.
I've asked before, how many that is and received no answer. I'll ask again and provide you with some data with which to extrapolate the answer, since I assume you have the covid attributed auto fatalities at your disposal. The NHTSA auto accident fatality numbers are not complete for 2020 but nationwide, there were 16,988 traffic fatalities in 2019 out of 228,680,000 licensed drivers in the same year. The preliminary numbers for 2020 traffic fatalities stand at 42,060. USA currently has 1,646 C0vid deaths/1 million inhabitants. USA population is 332,362,663 people. There were in 2020, 209,128,094 Americans over the age of 18. (driving age) As of Dec 31, 2020, there were 360,414 Covid19 deaths in the USA.
How many (as a number or %) auto deaths were attributed to Covid19?
Everybody has heard/read reported about auto fatalities and even a stabbing that were reported as covid deaths. Probably haven't heard it on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN.
.gov lies. Faucci flip flops, our secutranny of Health is not really a female. It's a man with surgical operation.
Prove any of yours right with some real facts and and data from a place that people with a brain can trust.
The NHTSA auto accident fatality numbers are not complete for 2020 but nationwide, there were 16,988 traffic fatalities in 2019 out of 228,680,000 licensed drivers in the same year. The preliminary numbers for 2020 traffic fatalities stand at 42,060. https://www.usatoday.com/st...ing-less/4590942001/ The nonprofit National Safety Council estimates in a report issued Thursday that 42,060 people died in vehicle crashes in 2020, an 8% increase over 2019 and the first jump in four years. USA currently has 1,646 C0vid deaths/1 million inhabitants. USA population is 332,362,663 people. This includes non-US citizens: US census population clock today shows about 330,425,184. https://www.census.gov/popclock/ There were in 2020, 209,128,094 Americans over the age of 18. (driving age) https://www.infoplease.com/...mographic-statistics
As of Dec 31, 2020, there were 360,414 Covid19 deaths in the USA. John Hopkins shows a slightly different number.
Everybody has heard/read reported about auto fatalities and even a stabbing that were reported as covid deaths. Probably haven't heard it on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN.
.gov lies. Faucci flip flops, our secutranny of Health is not really a female. It's a man with surgical operation.
We've also all heard that people that were abducted by aliens for anal probe purposes, that cattle are being killed and gutted by intruders from outer space, that the moon landing was faked, that the con trails in the sky contain chemicals the govt is spraying for mind control purposes, that the new vaccines alter dna and contain injectable chips for tracking us, that the government is run by shapeshifting lizard people, that we woulkd run out of oil in the 60s (then 70s, 80s etc) that we would all have flyin cars by the 21st century, that nuclear power would be "too cheap to even meter" and a whole host of other things. (the nuclear power thing could have come true if not for eco nuts) None of it on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and certainly not proven.
Everybody has heard/read reported about auto fatalities and even a stabbing that were reported as covid deaths. Probably haven't heard it on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN.
.gov lies. Faucci flip flops, our secutranny of Health is not really a female. It's a man with surgical operation.
This is true, but some just don't get it. Hell, even cases of people with heart disease for a while suddenly has a heart attack or any other terminal problem. Tested for covid and passed off as a covid death. But, but, but, they wouldn't have died if they didn't get covid. Well they wouldn't have died if they only got covid and didn't have the previous condition. Give me a fn break.
[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 03-15-2021).]
We've also all heard that people that were abducted by aliens for anal probe purposes, that cattle are being killed and gutted by intruders from outer space, that the moon landing was faked, that the con trails in the sky contain chemicals the govt is spraying for mind control purposes, that the new vaccines alter dna and contain injectable chips for tracking us, that the government is run by shapeshifting lizard people, that we woulkd run out of oil in the 60s (then 70s, 80s etc) that we would all have flyin cars by the 21st century, that nuclear power would be "too cheap to even meter" and a whole host of other things. (the nuclear power thing could have come true if not for eco nuts) None of it on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and certainly not proven.
We've also all heard that people that were abducted by aliens for anal probe purposes, that cattle are being killed and gutted by intruders from outer space, that the moon landing was faked, that the con trails in the sky contain chemicals the govt is spraying for mind control purposes, that the new vaccines alter dna and contain injectable chips for tracking us, that the government is run by shapeshifting lizard people, that we woulkd run out of oil in the 60s (then 70s, 80s etc) that we would all have flyin cars by the 21st century, that nuclear power would be "too cheap to even meter" and a whole host of other things. (the nuclear power thing could have come true if not for eco nuts) None of it on ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN and certainly not proven.
Anally probed alien abductees are real. We see them pushing covid19 bogieman bunk on Pennocks O/T forum.
Flying cars exist already. They just aren't allowed on public streets. Super cheap nuke power isn't permitted, but is obviously totally practical.
Covid19 is a means to an end. Control over people. The phony attributed deaths are commonly found. This is just like when you said people don't die from the RNA treatment. You're still just as wrong now.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 03-15-2021).]
I've asked before, how many that is and received no answer. I'll ask again and provide you with some data with which to extrapolate the answer, since I assume you have the covid attributed auto fatalities at your disposal.
Please, feel free to prove this wrong with some real facts and data.
I have in fact given you numbers. It's not something I spend my time thinking about until or if I get on here. About ~3 months ago, I did a whole bunch of math that calculated KNOWN false-positive rates from well respected Federal and medical organizations, and compared that with the number of people who were being listed as death "INVOLVING" COVID. The number came out to something conservatively to around 15-20%, if I remember correctly. I'm not going to waste a full hour of my time searching all the posts I made to contradict you when you've already 100% made up your mind and even Jesus Christ himself wouldn't be able to convince you otherwise. Your response at the time was effectively that while you recognized there was likely some variance in the viability of the Federal government's numbers... we can never know for sure. Ok... that was a reasonable response. Your responses here and now are definitely not that.
No one denies we were in a pandemic, no one denies that hundreds of thousands of people have died... but there are dozens of factors that directly lead to a POSITIVE for many by inflating these numbers for politicians, Federal organizations, etc... coupled with false positives. Yes, politicians DO lie. Yes, Federal organizations are corrupt. Yes, people do manipulate numbers for their own benefit. Yes, people ARE dying.
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Originally posted by maryjane:
We've also all heard that people that were abducted by aliens for anal probe purposes, that cattle are being killed and gutted by intruders from outer space, that the moon landing was faked, that the con trails in the sky contain chemicals the govt is spraying for mind control purposes, that the new vaccines alter dna and contain injectable chips for tracking us, that the government is run by shapeshifting lizard people, that we woulkd run out of oil in the 60s (then 70s, 80s etc) ...
Why do you do this ridiculous stuff? Every time someone challenges you, you immediately go to a completely outrageous straw-man argument. You're literally comparing people who are questioning the Government's COVID numbers with people who say that others are being abducted by aliens to be anal probed... etc. This is completely ridiculous. You do this because you want to effectively conflate something completely ridiculous, with an otherwise totally legitimate criticism of the Government.
The Government ALWAYS lies about things if / when it leads to the benefit of the current administration to do so. When the economy is really bad, and it points directly to someone who's in charge, the Federal government fudges those numbers by giving really bad estimates, and in some cases actually changing the metric by which these numbers are determined. Three times in the past 20 years the Federal government has "updated" the means by which the unemployment number is calculated. The most recently under Obama was to no longer include people who are on full-time welfare... which is absurd, because if you're on welfare (not disability), you're unemployed in my book.
The government is right now lying (and in most cases, withholding) about the number of people coming across, and the numbers we are getting are coming from the state governments. When you do this, you lose respect as a critical thinker... at least from me, if you even care... and maybe you don't care, and that's totally OK. But what is obvious is that this is the usual diversionary tactic to "discredit" the discussion of the other person. This only means to me that this is an emotional topic for you... perhaps because you yourself are concerned since you and your wife might be in the age group who is more at risk. I understand and appreciate that... but this isn't how you discuss logic.
Originally posted by maryjane: The NHTSA auto accident fatality numbers are not complete for 2020 but nationwide, there were 16,988 traffic fatalities in 2019 out of 228,680,000 licensed drivers in the same year. The preliminary numbers for 2020 traffic fatalities stand at 42,060.
Nature is an environment, it doesnt care about anything.
Government though, it does care more and more about its relevancy.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Nature doesn't care about anything. The Covid virus doesn't care about anything.
I was engaging in a figure of speech when I remarked that "Covid is nature's way of reminding Americans that they need a federal government."
My purpose was to "neg" or deprecate what became known as the Trump administration's "all of government" response to the Covid pandemic, and to draw a contrast (by implication) with the first 50+ days of the Biden administration, which is currently polling at or above a 60 percent approval rating on "handling of Covid."
An almost astronomical 67 percent was reported just two days ago in Forbes.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-16-2021).]
Yeah, and he won the election and there was no election fraud and Corona virus is caused by global warming and spiking gas prices can't be blamed on him and Syria and Iran need a war started on them and guns need banning.
Originally posted by sourmash: Yeah, and he won the election and there was no election fraud and Corona virus is caused by global warming and spiking gas prices can't be blamed on him and Syria and Iran need a war started on them and guns need banning.
Ah, the voice of reason. There are so many such voices these days.
I like wind, solar and geo-thermal. Now we all know you can win an election by hiding in the basement. We now know you don't have to hold press conferences, especially live ones.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Why do you do this ridiculous stuff? Every time someone challenges you, you immediately go to a completely outrageous straw-man argument. You're literally comparing people who are questioning the Government's COVID numbers with people who say that others are being abducted by aliens to be anal probed... etc. This is completely ridiculous. You do this because you want to effectively conflate something completely ridiculous, with an otherwise totally legitimate criticism of the Government.
The Government ALWAYS lies about things if / when it leads to the benefit of the current administration to do so. When the economy is really bad, and it points directly to someone who's in charge, the Federal government fudges those numbers by giving really bad estimates, and in some cases actually changing the metric by which these numbers are determined. Three times in the past 20 years the Federal government has "updated" the means by which the unemployment number is calculated. The most recently under Obama was to no longer include people who are on full-time welfare... which is absurd, because if you're on welfare (not disability), you're unemployed in my book.
The government is right now lying (and in most cases, withholding) about the number of people coming across, and the numbers we are getting are coming from the state governments. When you do this, you lose respect as a critical thinker... at least from me, if you even care... and maybe you don't care, and that's totally OK. But what is obvious is that this is the usual diversionary tactic to "discredit" the discussion of the other person. This only means to me that this is an emotional topic for you... perhaps because you yourself are concerned since you and your wife might be in the age group who is more at risk. I understand and appreciate that... but this isn't how you discuss logic.
It's no more 'ridiculous' than the baseless unproven "I've heard/we've all 'heard/I have a friend that knows someone that's a nurse and she said.." people that were claimed to have died from Covid in auto accidents and yet you never call those illogical claims out. Until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe that only one or 2 actual instances of that auto death thing happened, and as the link I provided showed, it was an outlier and was corrected. Speculation and hearsay is not proof.
Yes, I DO believe there are variances in the data, as there always is when dealing with milliions of cases (of anything) but I also believe (and until proven otherwise) will continue to believe the variances are statistically and realistically insignificant.
IF I were to fall for the 'numbers are grossly misstated' it would be in the opposite direction. Due to the number of people I have seen claim they had covid (some as early as Dec 2019) got over it without ever seeing a doctor and were never tested, I could be led to believe there are a lot more total cases than 'officially' reported. Here in OT, we really only have a core group of about 30 regulars but I know of at least 4-5 people that fall in the group that said they had it 'anonymously'. 4/30 "IF", that ratio holds true in the total population, then the total US caseload is grossly undercounted, but since it is simply opinion of those 4-5 people (unproven by tests) then I discard it as no more than a 'maybe'.
I didn't ask for much. Just some quantitative data proving these claims that the counts are significantly in error. After months of asking, all I've heard are crickets in the dark. I don't expect that to change either.
PROVE the numbers wrong.
(edited for glaring typos)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-16-2021).]
It will wreck your persona to the core, or probably will make you continue to spread flawed propaganda.
Marvin Hagler is now dead. Prior to death social media from family and friends said he was in ICU recovering from complications from the vaccine. After his death they denied it was vaccine related.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. Nature doesn't care about anything. The Covid virus doesn't care about anything.
I was engaging in a figure of speech when I remarked that "Covid is nature's way of reminding Americans that they need a federal government."
My purpose was to "neg" or deprecate what became known as the Trump administration's "all of government" response to the Covid pandemic, and to draw a contrast (by implication) with the first 50+ days of the Biden administration, which is currently polling at or above a 60 percent approval rating on "handling of Covid."
An almost astronomical 67 percent was reported just two days ago in Forbes.
That's absolutely hilarious. Hidin' Biden taking credit for Trump's Operation Warp Speed. Hell I bet you even spout the DNC propaganda that "there was no distribution plan".
Originally posted by Hudini: That's absolutely hilarious. Hidin' Biden taking credit for Trump's Operation Warp Speed. Hell I bet you even spout the DNC propaganda that "there was no distribution plan".
Bill Gates, among others, has said that the federal government's conception and execution of "Warp Speed" under the Trump administration has been praiseworthy, in terms of the rapid development of usable vaccines for the U.S. population. The Bill Gates remark that I am remembering did not go beyond that, into any appraisal of vaccines distribution planning and preparedness.
Iif there was a Donald J. Trump "secret sauce" in the Warp Speed recipe--something that sets it apart from what any likely other federal administration could have accomplished--I don't know what that would be.
The first Covid vaccine that received a federal emergency use authorization from the FDA was the Pfizer vaccine.
This is from November 13, 2020, as reported in the Associated Press:
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Pfizer notably did not accept government money to develop, test or expand manufacturing capacity under Trump’s Operation Warp Speed initiative to quickly find a vaccine and treatments for the disease sweeping the country.
In fact, Pfizer partnered with the vaccine’s original developer, Germany’s BioNTech, in March and the following month announced the first human study in Germany. The White House announced Operation Warp Speed in May.
Pfizer opted not to join Operation Warp Speed initially but is following the same general requirements for the vaccine’s development as competitors who received government research money. The company says it has risked $2 billion of its own money on vaccine development and won’t get anything from Washington unless the effort is successful.
“Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine development and manufacturing costs have been entirely self-funded,” Pfizer spokeswoman Jerica Pitts said this week. “We decided to self-fund our efforts so we could move as fast as possible.”
The report continues with this:
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Pfizer did sign an agreement with the U.S. government in July [2020] worth $1.95 billion — if the vaccine pans out and is cleared by the FDA — to supply 100 million doses. That guarantees Pfizer a U.S. market, an important incentive.
Just a week ago (March 10, 2021) there was a press release from the Office of Donald J. Trump:
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I hope everyone remembers when they're getting the COVID-19 (often referred to as the China Virus) Vaccine, that if I wasn't President, you wouldn't be getting that beautiful "shot" for 5 years, at best, and probably wouldn't be getting it all. I hope everyone remembers!
That's an exorbitant amount of credit for Trump to try to claim for himself. For what? The July 2020 anticipatory or pre-purchase agreement by the U.S. government for $1.95 billion to secure a supply of the Pfizer vaccine? For other actions and agreements of that kind that were part of Operation Warp Speed?
Veritably, the U.S. government committed to purchase $1.95 billion of the Pfizer vaccine several months before the Pfizer project had advanced to the milestone of receiving an emergency use authorization from the FDA, and that pre-purchase agreement has proven out to have been a smart move, but was it rocket science?
It's basically just the reversal or the inversion of a very old idea. "I will gladly agree to pay you now (or agree now to pay you) for a supply of vaccine starting TBD."
I don't think it took a "Donald J. Trump" to come up with that.
"AP FACT CHECK: Trump distorts on vaccine, state distribution" Hope Yen, Lauren Neergaard and Candice Choi for the Associated Press; November 13, 2020. https://apnews.com/article/...586b207990396c1e3b5f
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-17-2021).]
Originally posted by maryjane: I didn't ask for much. Just some quantitative data proving these claims that the counts are significantly in error. After months of asking, all I've heard are crickets in the dark. I don't expect that to change either.
What we have here maryjane, is a failure to communicate. The gooberment has communicated little to inspire belief in their numbers, trust in their motives, or even plausibility of their claims, and most of all their claims of guidance.
I just not can believe that you think the Kung Flu is not heavily politicized. Just as Global Warming, the New Ice Age (of the 80's), climate change. You want us to give you numbers which the gooberment supplies ?
The govt calls 24 year olds "children" when compiling gun deaths.
Cliff, he somehow thinks we're as gullible as his demographic group. Which is an insult to our intelligence.
I think that can only be a "cherry pick" from the various government databases (FBI and CDC; others?) that are publicized. Or an out-of-context and misleading characterization of how the government is reporting about that demarcation of 24 years of age. "Children?" Or is that being reported as "young adults"..?
?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 03-17-2021).]
It's no more 'ridiculous' than the baseless unproven "I've heard/we've all 'heard/I have a friend that knows someone that's a nurse and she said.." people that were claimed to have died from Covid in auto accidents and yet you never call those illogical claims out. Until proven otherwise, I will continue to believe that only one or 2 actual instances of that auto death thing happened, and as the link I provided showed, it was an outlier and was corrected. Speculation and hearsay is not proof.
Yes, I DO believe there are variances in the data, as there always is when dealing with milliions of cases (of anything) but I also believe (and until proven otherwise) will continue to believe the variances are statistically and realistically insignificant.
IF I were to fall for the 'numbers are grossly misstated' it would be in the opposite direction. Due to the number of people I have seen claim they had covid (some as early as Dec 2019) got over it without ever seeing a doctor and were never tested, I could be led to believe there are a lot more total cases than 'officially' reported. Here in OT, we really only have a core group of about 30 regulars but I know of at least 4-5 people that fall in the group that said they had it 'anonymously'. 4/30 "IF", that ratio holds true in the total population, then the total US caseload is grossly undercounted, but since it is simply opinion of those 4-5 people (unproven by tests) then I discard it as no more than a 'maybe'.
I didn't ask for much. Just some quantitative data proving these claims that the counts are significantly in error. After months of asking, all I've heard are crickets in the dark. I don't expect that to change either.
PROVE the numbers wrong.
(edited for glaring typos)
FACTS:
- State Health Department officials have said they count "COVID DEATHS" as literally anyone who dies, and happens to test positive for COVID at time of death. PERIOD, this is not subjection, this is fact. Let me know if you want me to post that video again from the Health Director for the state of Illinois.
- The False Positive rate for COVID testing is 20-30%
You take all of that into consideration, the variance in "COVID DEATHS" is going to like be anywhere from 15-25% using very basic math.
Whether you think that is a significant variance, or not... is totally up to you... but that's what it is. You can choose to do with that information what you like. Democrats use it to exploit voters, and people who are scared of getting sick.
- State Health Department officials have said they count "COVID DEATHS" as literally anyone who dies, and happens to test positive for COVID at time of death. PERIOD, this is not subjection, this is fact. Let me know if you want me to post that video again from the Health Director for the state of Illinois.
Relative that is a nurse practitioner has said this was happening from the beginning, thus the reason for one of my earlier posts.
[This message has been edited by Lambo nut (edited 03-17-2021).]
- The False Positive rate for COVID testing is 20-30%
When tests were being done at the restart of the college semester this last fall, Vanderbilt was finding 4 out of 5 positives turned out to be false positives.
Originally posted by rinselberg: Uh, Cliff (W) . . . are you sure you're not heavily politicized?
Yes. Unlike you, I am heavily patriotic.
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Originally posted by sourmash: The govt calls 24 year olds "children" when compiling gun deaths.
Cliff, he somehow thinks we're as gullible as his demographic group. Which is an insult to our intelligence.
Did you say gullible ? I was about to look for his post where he said Hiden Biden had a 65%, he said almost astronomical, 65% approval rating.
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Originally posted by rinselberg: I think that can only be a "cherry pick" from the various government databases (FBI and CDC; others?) that are publicized. Or an out-of-context and misleading characterization of how the government is reporting about that demarcation of 24 years of age. "Children?" Or is that being reported as "young adults"..?
?
? indeed. Children can stay on their parents health care plan till they are 25 years old.
