Well, that other thread has degenerated into a series of ad hominum arguments, and things that i have posted have been critiqued by "shoot the messanger". Lets try again people and see if we can have a polite discussion of the facts and reasoning. For once, can we?
OK here we go:
Let's see if we can have an intelligent discussion about this:
MONTEREY, Calif. — Researchers at Stanford Medicine are working to find out what proportion of Californians have already had COVID-19. The new study could help policymakers make more informed decisions during the coronavirus pandemic.
The team tested 3,200 people at three Bay Area locations on Saturday using an antibody test for COVID-19 and expect to release results in the coming weeks. The data could help to prove COVID-19 arrived undetected in California much earlier than previously thought.
The hypothesis that COVID-19 first started spreading in California in the fall of 2019 is one explanation for the state's lower than expected case numbers.
As of Tuesday, the state had 374 reported COVID-19 fatalities in a state of 40 million people, compared to New York which has seen 14 times as many fatalities and has a population half that of California. Social distancing could be playing a role but New York's stay-at-home order went into effect on March 22, three days after California implemented its order.
"Something is going on that we haven't quite found out yet," said Victor Davis Hanson a senior fellow with Stanford's Hoover Institute.
Hanson said he thinks it is possible COVID-19 has been spreading among Californians since the fall when doctors reported an early flu season in the state. During that same time, California was welcoming as many as 8,000 Chinese nationals daily into our airports. Some of those visitors even arriving on direct flights from Wuhan, the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in China.
"When you add it all up it would be naïve to think that California did not have some exposure," said Hanson.
For years California has been the No. 1 travel destination for Chinese tourists in the United States. Even after the U.S. halted flights from China this winter Chinese travelers were still able to come to California on flights from Europe and Canada.
Hanson said through all of this the Chinese have been disingenuous about the timing of the initial outbreak of COVID-19.
"They originally said it was in early January, then it got backdated to December and then early December and now they are saying as early as November 17," said Hanson.
If Californians were exposed earlier than the rest of the country to COVID-19 we may have had a chance to build up some herd immunity to the disease. We won't know if that is the case until results from the Stanford Medicine study come back....
"It is going to allow us to get back to normal much more quickly because there will be many more people than we think that have anti-bodies," he said.
Positive results in recovered folks could get nurses and caregivers back on the front lines of the pandemic as well as dishwashers and small business owners who keep our economy going.
The results of the study could also help us all to feel less scared of COVID-19. Limited testing has resulted in an artificially high death rate. The more people we can test who have mild symptoms, who are asymptomatic or who have recovered the less-lethal COVID-19 will seem.
Now lets see: IF the virus has been present in California much longer than we thot, then that means that herd immunity is also greater than what we thot, and it means that the peak of the plandemic is sooner than we thot, and milder than we thot.
SO
Why has California been much less affected by the virus than NY, even tho it had the virus before NY?
Well, lets go back to something we supposedly learned 100 years ago during the spanish flu.
Put simply, medics found that severely ill flu patients nursed outdoors recovered better than those treated indoors. A combination of fresh air and sunlight seems to have prevented deaths among patients; and infections among medical staff.[1] There is scientific support for this. Research shows that outdoor air is a natural disinfectant. Fresh air can kill the flu virus and other harmful germs. Equally, sunlight is germicidal and there is now evidence it can kill the flu virus.
Ever hear of sunny California? Altho Californians were exposed to the virus far earlier than others, there is more of the population exposed to sunlight in California in the winter (especially in southern California where the majority live) and so the effects of the flu were far less in sunny California than in cold wintery snowy New York.
So why are the "experts" telling us to stay indoors? Why are they killing our economy to fight something that sun tanning will greatly mitigate? Can i point out how wrong they have been in the past? Well you asked for it so here goes:
Does this look like fear mongering to you? How could so many be so incompetent that they don't even know what was learned 100 years ago?
SO we will find out about the sun and the virus as things warm up and people start going outside, IF THE AUTHORITIES LET THEM.
Are they really that stupid or is there a hidden agenda going on here?
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
"Are they really that stupid?" "Or is there a hidden agenda going on here"
(askin for a friend)
The "sun" aspect has been debunked countless times (at least twice on PFF) The population density difference has explained why NYC has been hit worse than Calif even tho Calif received it infections earlier. The modeling inaccuracies have been more than adequately explained (including here at PFF) and yet you just had to start another tinfoil hat thread........ starting by explaining it was because "the other thread...blah blah blah". and then, ended this one with an ad hominen attack, which is one of the things that supposedly prompted you to start this new thread...
Originally posted by Tony Kania: You began with BS, you will get BS out. Period. You cannot make a cake with dirt. Begin as many threads as you like. I will not stop you.
I will be sure to police your posts from now on. I will be looking for opinion, and thought. If found, I will play like Patrick and biotch about it CONSTANTLY.
My Wife and I went to Home Depot yesterday for nothing other than to go there. A line out the door. We waited for over 15 minutes to enter a PACKED store. Walked the isles casually, as well as most of the folks in the store. Many wore masks, but most did not. People were kind and friendly. We did NORMAL THINGS, and I am done being stricken for it.
Also, the amount of hot rods, motorcycles, and couples just out for a drive in the 70* and sunny weather yesterday was absolutely impressive. BUSY streets at 2:30 pm.
Can I post this Olejoedad? Huh? Acceptable reading material? I say what I want, when I want. Have you not gotten the memo?
How do the California numbers compare to the rest of the Sunbelt, especially Florida, which is also an international tourist destination?
Geographical size, population density, when and how well the citizenry accepted and adhered to social distancing all play a big part in how badly (or not) any geographical area was impacted.
As with the flu, common cold or any other seasonal illness that produces runny noses and sneezing/coughing, warm dry regions will always have less communicability than cold/wet/ regions except in cities and counties in Southern states with high population densities.. Texas for instance, currently shows 12,186 cases, but the data also shows that 8,653 of those cases are in the counties of Harris, Tarrant, Denton, Dallas, Fort Bend, Bexar, Galveston, and Collin counties, which are the counties containing and surrounding the 3 largest population centers in the state. Houston, San Antonio, Ft Worth, Dallas. If you add the next few highly populated counties/cities into the mix (El Paso, Cameron and Hildalgo) it adds another 500 cases.
The state of NY now has 173,528 cases, but 92,384 of those cases are in the most population dense area in and around NYC. If you include the counties immediately adjacent to NYC Metro; Rockland, Suffolk, Nassau and Suffolk county, the total is 159,454. The counties of the state of NY farther to the north and west have very few cases, but since they are actuall North (and presumably colder) they should (according to this latest conspiracy theory) be completely over run with cases...but..they aren't. https://www.syracuse.com/coronavirus-ny/
Georgia, is currently #10 in the US cases, owing to the fact that Atlanta is the biggest travel hub in the USA, and the busiest in the world.. Louisiana is also pretty high, even tho it is a southern state, but Mardi Gras took place in February with visitors from all over the nation and world attending. Texas is the 2nd largest populated state in the country...but, outside it's metro areas, is relatively' less densely populated'. According to 'theory' tho, Texas should have way fewer cases than a northern state such as North or South Dakota...it does not. Alaska, is pretty far North so it should have been brought to it's knees already, but it trails every state in CONUS with only the little US territories of Virgin Islands, Guam, Puerto Rico and the Nortern Mariannas having fewer cases.
California got on the distancing and lockdown protocol early on and in a big way and was able to minimize (so far) it's total cases and deaths. NYC's mayor Deblasio resisted shutting down schools and businesses and only finally did so after the Gov of NY state took control and ordered it done.
There is way more to this than "sunlight'.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-11-2020).]
Sometimes intelligent questions, and the well researched answers, get to the truth of a matter better than bluster and attacks on ideas or postulations.
I hope that I am not duplicating something that has already become part of this discussion.
It was yesterday that I heard about a report that highlighted another difference between California and the other West Coast states, VS New York, New Jersey and Connecticut, which can be grouped together as the "Tri-State" area. The difference? "Europe."
The first known entry of the virus into the U.S. was on January 21, in Washington (state) and it was detected in a U.S. citizen or resident who was allowed to reenter the U.S. upon arriving from Wuhan.
At the end of February it was seen to be present in Northern California as "community spread," because there were no known links for that person that could be traced directly back to China. I think most people here in California were thinking "China." As in "from China."
But for New York City:
quote
NYC gets more than 60 million tourists a year and is the entry point to America for many travelers, meaning anyone carrying the virus is likely to start infecting others there first. American geneticists estimate that it started spreading there from Europe in February, before New York's first confirmed case on March 1.
"... from Europe." And before March 12, when President Trump imposed what were new (or more stringent) restrictions on arrivals from Europe.
It is my (obviously amateur) guess that the two biggest factors are population density and reliance on public transportation.
I live in the Phoenix metro area. Phoenix is the fifth largest city in the US by population and the tenth largest metro area, but is not even in the top 100 for population density and very few here rely on public transportation. We have fared much better than most large US cities.
What's the population & density of Sweden? 173,860 sq miles. 59.6 people per sq mile in 2019.
They have 10,150 cases, 1005 cases per 1 million and 88 deaths per 1 million population with a total population of only 10 million.
NY state contains 54,550 sq miles. 416 ppl per sq mile NY state has 180,00 cases, 9200 cases per 1 million and 440 deaths per 1 million people with a total population of 19.5 million.
NY state has right at 10X as many people squeezed into 1/3 less area than Sweden. Swedn has approx the same population density as Iowa. apples to oranges due to vast differences in population density.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 04-11-2020).]
What's the population & density of Sweden? 173,860 sq miles. 59.6 people per sq mile in 2019.
They have 10,150 cases, 1005 cases per 1 million and 88 deaths per 1 million population with a total population of only 10 million.
NY state contains 54,550 sq miles. 416 ppl per sq mile NY state has 180,00 cases, 9200 cases per 1 million and 440 deaths per 1 million people with a total population of 19.5 million.
NY state has right at 10X as many people squeezed into 1/3 less area than Sweden. Swedn has approx the same population density as Iowa. apples to oranges due to vast differences in population density.
Comparing my county to maryjane's numbers for Sweden: Maricopa county has 1,886 cases, 421 cases per 1 million and 11 deaths per million population with a total population of 4.485 million. Maricopa county has 486 people per square mile.
Schools, bars and restaurants have been closed since mid March and we have had a "stay at home" order for a couple of weeks. It looks like we are are leveling out the curve.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 04-11-2020).]
So...the article is correct. Myself, wife, and both kids contracted this back in December. Kids had the 105 fever spike and when the doctors did a swab for the "flu", it came back negative. Back then, the doctor informed us that there was possibly a NEW flu virus that could not be detected. They sent us on our way. Fortunately my wife is in medicine so she gave our kids nebulizer treatments as well as steroids. Like a light switch, 4 days later, we all were fine as if nothing happened. I even had the burning throat sensation which is common wth Coronavirus.
The irony?.......Yesterday we receive a call from the kid's doctor asking how they are doing. NO doctor checks in 4 months later unless they KNOW something was going on last year. Evidently they were going over the past "flu" patient records and noticed our kid's fevers matched those of the Coronavirus.
So yes, this has been here in California for a LONG time.
I will be sure to police your (olejoedad) posts from now on. I will be looking for opinion, and thought. If found, I will play like Patrick and biotch about it CONSTANTLY.
This isn't the first time while looking over a thread where I've had no previous involvement that I've discovered you mentioning my name. More often than not there are also references made to genitals. This unnatural obsession you have for me is getting more and more creepy. I ask that you please just back off.
So...the article is correct. Myself, wife, and both kids contracted this back in December. Kids had the 105 fever spike and when the doctors did a swab for the "flu", it came back negative. Back then, the doctor informed us that there was possibly a NEW flu virus that could not be detected. They sent us on our way. Fortunately my wife is in medicine so she gave our kids nebulizer treatments as well as steroids. Like a light switch, 4 days later, we all were fine as if nothing happened. I even had the burning throat sensation which is common wth Coronavirus.
The irony?.......Yesterday we receive a call from the kid's doctor asking how they are doing. NO doctor checks in 4 months later unless they KNOW something was going on last year. Evidently they were going over the past "flu" patient records and noticed our kid's fevers matched those of the Coronavirus.
So yes, this has been here in California for a LONG time.
Did you (or any in your family) actually have the nose swab lab test or the antigen test specifically for Covid-19? yes...no?
Did you (or any in your family) actually have the nose swab lab test or the antigen test specifically for Covid-19? yes...no?
Which agency did your lab work for Covid-19?
No, because the Coronavirus was not known at that time. On December 31, that's when China alerted the World Health Organization that there was a virus. Our case was in mid December. They tested us for the basic flu which came back negative. Then they told us about a new type of flu which could not be tested. They said that we all had that "new" flu and sent us on our way. Little did they know how serious this would become. That's why I said it was strange that they called us a couple days ago and asked how our 2 sons were doing.......4 month's later. Doctors do not call out of the blue unless they suspect something more serious.
I believe there is a Univ study of some sort going on somewhere in Calif to determine whether this is all true or not. Read it earlier..Maybe at San Jose Univ..I don't remember. So far, it's been 'inconclusive'. I'd have to see something more than correlation to buy in to it. Correlation does not equal causation
Last Wed, I looked at the old ships clock I have and realized the mail lady had run. Went out to my truck, drove the 2 miles to the row of mailboxes to check my mail and when I got back home, the power was out. Ship's clock stopped about a minute or 2 after I drove away. Rest of the clocks were blinking. I surmised, that my going to check the mail caused the electricity to go off. It was on when I left..off when I returned less than 5 minutes later. That's correlation.
Found out later, that a Chevy dually pulling a horsetrailer that passed me while I was stopped at the mailboxes had missed his turn farther down and hit a utility pole and that's what knocked the power out. That's causation.
This is the stupidest article yet from CNN. "Sweden challenges Trump"? Trump simply said Sweden is doing badly because they have decided to just let the virus sweep the country. Sweden is not challenging Trump in any way, shape, or form. It's just a stupid headline. And Trump is right in that Sweden is suffering more infections. They have decided to test Darwin's theory in real time.
Do not change quoted text. If you quote other members, do not change the quoted text. It's okay to highlight (through bold/underline/italics) words, but do not add/change anything so to give the impression someone said something they did not.
Do not change quoted text. If you quote other members, do not change the quoted text. It's okay to highlight (through bold/underline/italics) words, but do not add/change anything so to give the impression someone said something they did not.
[/QUOTE]
No shat!
Maybe you would do that for forum member Patrick. He misquoted Randye and I 7 times this past week alone.
Disclaimer: Do not get me wrong here. Not mad at Cliff in the very least. He should not have to read each written word. He either opened a thread, or was informed by someone through the tattle tale feature.
We have a tattle tale feature, but not a like button? Bwahahaha!
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 04-13-2020).]
SO we will find out about the sun and the virus as things warm up and people start going outside, IF THE AUTHORITIES LET THEM.
I heard the first week or two that the suns UV kills the virus. Also that heat, I think it was over 140 or so? did. Don't quote me on the number. The info is out there. Later I read that UVC can kill viruses, but UVC is filtered out by our ozone layer... But when the virus comes off in your breath for example and gets on things in the shade and can stay there for days, that matters too (either way). Plus all the unanswered questions / unknown and "we think" answers out there from the professionals.
But why are some ok with being quarantined? For many they care about infecting others. For some thay care about their own family and personal health.
One person I know is making more cash on unemployment than working because: 1. They switched jobs in 2019 to a lower paying job, and unemployment due to covid is paying something like half of their paycheck from the 2018 job they had. PLUS the stimulus per kid check. PLUS 600 per month bonus for what was it, something like 4-6 months? PLUS they don't need to be looking for another job. Til...what was it the end of the year?
The hand outs and opportunity for abuse may be a bit of a problem.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-13-2020).]
No, because the Coronavirus was not known at that time. On December 31, that's when China alerted the World Health Organization that there was a virus. Our case was in mid December. They tested us for the basic flu which came back negative. Then they told us about a new type of flu which could not be tested. They said that we all had that "new" flu and sent us on our way. Little did they know how serious this would become. That's why I said it was strange that they called us a couple days ago and asked how our 2 sons were doing.......4 month's later. Doctors do not call out of the blue unless they suspect something more serious.
Interesting. Who called.. the local hospital staff or?
There are so many rumors out there, many claiming to be from experts. People who talk. There is still no real educated opinion on whether people who have had it become "carriers", and it "flares up". Or if you can re catch it and how soon after having had it. Or if you do re catch it, if it hits you harder because you just recently fought it off.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-13-2020).]
Maybe you would do that for forum member Patrick. He misquoted Randye and I 7 times this past week alone.
Disclaimer: Do not get me wrong here. Not mad at Cliff in the very least. He should not have to read each written word. He either opened a thread, or was informed by someone through the tattle tale feature.
We have a tattle tale feature, but not a like button? Bwahahaha!
Interesting. Who called.. the local hospital staff or?
There are so many rumors out there, many claiming to be from experts. People who talk. There is still no real educated opinion on whether people who have had it become "carriers", and it "flares up". Or if you can re catch it and how soon after having had it. Or if you do re catch it, if it hits you harder because you just recently fought it off.
Where are we today? About 135 days after the virus purportedly first surfaced in China sometime in Dec 2019. About 70 days since the very 1st US case was reported in Snohomish Wash on Jan 21. That's a lot of difficult questions to expect many real answers to in such a short time.
Where are we today? About 135 days after the virus purportedly first surfaced in China sometime in Dec 2019. About 70 days since the very 1st US case was reported in Snohomish Wash on Jan 21. That's a lot of difficult questions to expect many real answers to in such a short time.
So, here we have evidence - some of which has been recounted here on this thread, that the virus has been present in California far longer than we had previously thot. You may dispute the sunny thesis, but let me tell you a story.
A few years ago, i had been fighting the flu all of november, december and half of january. The Quebecois call it gastro - flu with the runs and bowel problems, you feel that you have to poop all the time, even when you don't. i was eating 10, 20, 40, even 80 thousand IU of Vit D a day. It helped but did not fix the problem. 1/2 hour after getting off the plane in Florida it was gone. Gone gone gone and it stayed gone all week in Florida, and for about a week after returning to Montreal. Then it - the gastro - came back. Since then my wife and i sit in the sun - when its sunny - no matter how cold it is, dressed up in our warmest stuff, just so we can get the sun on our faces. It works for me, and that's all i care about. It might not work for you, but seeing is believing.
Now as to the effects of the virus in southern states vs northern states, remember that not all people go out in the sun when its sunny. Some people stay indoors cuz of whatever.
The point is that the "experts" Fauci and Birx have been wrong consistantly in this saga, and yet they are still trotted out as being the authority on the subject. How many PhDz in pandemics are there in the world? How come we don't hear much from them. Always the same ones. Is there an hidden agenda here?
but after observing the disgracefully grotesque actions taken by despotic politicians and gutless puppet central bankers, I’m convinced this manufactured crisis is being used by the corporate fascists to cover up their financial fraud, destroy small businesses, further enslave the plebs in debt, institute martial control, institute digital currency, while electronically tracking our every movement. And the worst part is the majority have gone along with every government mandate like docile sheep being led to slaughter.
America is devolving into a totalitarian state before our very eyes and we obeyingly confine ourselves in our homes watching Netflix, heeding the “expert” dictums of Fauci and Birx as gospel, and waiting for $1,200 to be electronically inserted into our empty bank accounts, as our recompense for losing our jobs and going further into debt to Wall Street banks. As Huxley pointed out almost ninety years ago, we were on a path towards an efficient totalitarian state, and we’ve finally arrived. Are you loving your servitude?
Ok have at it!
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Look up Seasonal Affective disorder. Somewhat common in low-sun northern regions in the winter. There are a whole host of symptoms, and lamps you can get to mitigate them.
Wonder if those lamps would be useful for treatment of this thing.
so it should have been brought to it's knees already, but it trails every state in CONUS with only the little US territories of Virgin Islands, Guam, Puerto Rico and the Nortern Mariannas having fewer cases. 
