Originally posted by Boondawg: You see lots of evidence of that here, do ya'? And you really believe in it? ...
Yeah, so much for "looking after each other no matter what"...
We are all separated geographically, which limits the ability for those of us to provide support to each other. Being in digital format, we're more expressive, and the O/T has become a place where politics are freely discussed. As with any topic, there are strong opinions and people feel empowered to express them. Furthermore, some opinions are viewed as a direct-attack on our way of lives. I see Socialism as the ultimate downfall of our country, and I personally have no trouble getting emotionally engaged to fight it.
But if the situation were one in which we all lived in the same small community and there was tragedy, guarantee we'd all be helping each other out. As much as you like your arguments with Tony and Randy, I guarantee to you either one of them would quickly pull you off the street to save your life if a bus was barrelling down the road and you weren't paying attention. As I would too, and as I'm sure you would for them.
quote
Originally posted by Patrick: Mark me down as doubtful.
I've been here a long time. I've seen a lot of members come and go over the last two decades. The harassment and hostility that is allowed to take place here is inexcusable.
Cliff could probably respond if he felt compelled to do so, but my take on this is that he's got a life outside of Fiero.nl. I'd suspect in many cases that this website is very often more a burden than it is enjoyment. We come on here to BS, talk about Fieros, and everything else. But imagine if you were the one responsible for maintaining the website, paying the bills for it, and moderating it? I think it would get pretty old, pretty quick.
I run a couple of websites... PontiacPerformance.net being one of them. There's no message board, but it went down for over a year when my hosting company crashed. I eventually moved it to GoDaddy, which uses Linux servers that's case-sensitive, so half my images don't display. I could probably go through all the html files and update them in a single day, but it's just not a huge priority... re: life. I know that Cliff is generally fiscally conservative, and not particularly a fan of Socialism... but I don't think he means any spite by not responding. He's just got much more going on with his life and Fiero.NL takes a back seat... :/
Personally, I don't like it when anyone is banned, whether that's someone like Uhlanstan, or that anti-Trump guy Chemdawg or whoever his name was. I don't enjoy echo chambers... which is why more than half my friends are liberal, and my wife is a Democrat.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 04-13-2020).]
Originally posted by Tony Kania: If you live in Michigan, you may want to see what your Governor is doing to your freedoms. You can shop at certain stores, but are limited to what you can now purchase. You want to buy paint for your walls? NOPE! How about some tape for paint that you already have? NOPE. Perhaps you need some gardening tools, a mattress, BBQ grill? NOPE. In a few short hours things of that nature will not be purchasable in Michigan until further notice.
Kiss those liberties good by. Freedoms will never return without blood shed. Just predicting the future.
Originally posted by maryjane: Those orders come about because of people that believe they should be able to do whatever they want to when in a public place of business regardless of the risk that action presents to others.
It's not nearly the first time in history that govt hasorder certain items not be sold.
Now, having kids like ... tell me what to say and do...
Seriously, just exactly how stupid are you? Who do you think here believes for even 1 second anyone is trying to tell you what to do or say? Really. Name 1 person. Just 1.
You don't count. You're a moron.
Really, what do you do when you're not mentally blowing yourself?
Seriously, just exactly how stupid are you? Who do you think here believes for even 1 second anyone is trying to tell you what to do or say? Really. Name 1 person. Just 1.
You don't count. You're a moron.
Really, what do you do when you're not mentally blowing yourself? Click to show
Marijuana stores are essential in the state of Washington.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 04-16-2020).]
Segregation can be a good thing too, in the right circumstances. Some groups are simply incompatible with others.
That leads to 2 options. Segregation, or war to determine the dominant group.
No, we CANT just all get along. Diametrically opposed values and views preclude that option. It will work short term until the underlying tension and anger boils over.
Learn the difference between Socialism and Liberty. When people fear government, it’s called Socialism. When government fears people, it’s called Liberty.
'LAND OF THE FREE': Protester wears US Navy uniform and refuses to leave the ocean amid beach closures
The man, who was identified by a witness as a retired US Navy chief, was seen photographed standing in front of a sign that read "LAND OF THE FREE."
Mike Conner, a longtime resident of Emerald Isle and a surfer, told Insider the retired sailor stood in the waters for about 10 minutes before he was approached by law enforcement officers. Conner said the man was asked to remove himself from the area, but refused the request.
Michigan House speaker Lee Chatfield did a decent job of summing up the concerns many of us have with the Michigan Governor's emergency orders this week.
Key words: 'Safe vs Unsafe', and 'regional' - he hit the nail on the head there.
We don't need someone to decide for us what activities are 'essential'. Restrictions to limit peoples' risk should revolve around what level of risk they present, and pose as little restriction as possible. And the level of risk is obviously not the same in Barga County up in da U.P. where I don't think there's a single confirmed case, as it is in Wayne County, where there are 13,000+ in the same number of square miles. You would not see the kind of discontent and pushback we've been seeing lately, if the measures were not seen as arbitrary and one-size-fits-all.
[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 04-19-2020).]
Originally posted by D B Cooper: Michigan House speaker Lee Chatfield did a decent job of summing up the concerns many of us have with the Michigan Governor's emergency orders this week.
Key words: 'Safe vs Unsafe', and 'regional' - he hit the nail on the head there.
We don't need someone to decide for us what activities are 'essential'. Restrictions to limit peoples' risk should revolve around what level of risk they present, and pose as little restriction as possible. And the level of risk is obviously not the same in Barga County up in da U.P. where I don't think there's a single confirmed case, as it is in Wayne County, where there are 13,000+ in the same number of square miles. You would not see the kind of discontent and pushback we've been seeing lately, if the measures were not seen as arbitrary and one-size-fits-all.
I stand for self determination. I do understand your thoughts and agree with them. I have those thoughts, ... more thought.
Yes, Detroit may be a bigger risk. They have banned buying paint in MI. If it was only banned in Detroit, those in Detroit, at a bigger infection rate would shop rural. Spending Covid to those less likely to take it as serious (not using mitigation).
Key words: 'Safe vs Unsafe', and 'regional' - he hit the nail on the head there.
We don't need someone to decide for us what activities are 'essential'. Restrictions to limit peoples' risk should revolve around what level of risk they present, and pose as little restriction as possible. And the level of risk is obviously not the same in Barga County up in da U.P. where I don't think there's a single confirmed case, as it is in Wayne County, where there are 13,000+ in the same number of square miles.
Risk..presented to someone..or risk FROM someone? Do they have a blockade to prevent travel from one county to the other?
I stand for self determination. I do understand your thoughts and agree with them. I have those thoughts, ... more thought.
Yes, Detroit may be a bigger risk. They have banned buying paint in MI. If it was only banned in Detroit, those in Detroit, at a bigger infection rate would shop rural. Spending Covid to those less likely to take it as serious (not using mitigation).
No reason to ban buying paint, landscaping supplies, or nursery plants in the first place. Just practice the same precautions as when buying anything else right now. No need to incentivize the Detroiters to go rural after that stuff. And lets face it, most of the folks spreading virus around down here are not the folks you typically see doing home improvement projects.
They also arbitrarily banned taking any motorized boat out. My mother's next door neighbor up in St Clair County (relatively few cases up there) had already been taking his fishing boat out on the St Clair River walleye fishing a few times this spring before the Halfwhit swung the ban hammer. Many like to start getting out salmon fishing Lake Huron beginning in April too. Fishing boats may not be essential, but aren't contributing to actual risk either.
Risk..presented to someone..or risk FROM someone? Do they have a blockade to prevent travel from one county to the other?
Risk inherent in any given activity, so both 'to' and 'from'. And no, no actual blocades. The rules right now say no non essential travel, but you can drive up north to go to a state park. But you can't go up north to a second home you actually own, or go visit a friend or relative, whether across the street, or 500 miles away... unless you're coming from out of state, in which case you can do any of those. Like I said, arbitrary.
[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 04-19-2020).]
First of all, there is such a thing as managed risk. If Kim and I pack up the dogs from here, where we live alone-together, and drive 4 hours without stopping to an isolated cabin-fishing hole I've been to hundreds of times, there is zero risk of anything except to the egos of self-important tin dictators who forget they only have power so long as we the people allow it.
And lets face it, most of the folks spreading virus around down here are not the folks you typically see doing home improvement projects.
What kind of data is supporting that? Are the admitting physicians around there asking if the patients had just previously painted their house or built a new closet recently?
Here, (East Texas) from everything I've seen in the news, the average patient including avg fatality is........... the average joe. bus drivers, shop keepers, refinery workers, plumbers, teachers, a welder (2 most recent in nearest town worked the counter at Love's truck stop) , clerks, bankers, farmers..nothing specific or unusual. Almost everyone around my region is service sector/blue collar tho.
I could be wrong, but other than being picky regarding species, I don't think a virus is very particular about which respiratory tract it sets up house in.
What kind of data is supporting that? Are the admitting physicians around there asking if the patients had just previously painted their house or built a new closet recently?
Here, (East Texas) from everything I've seen in the news, the average patient including avg fatality is........... the average joe. bus drivers, shop keepers, refinery workers, plumbers, teachers, a welder (2 most recent in nearest town worked the counter at Love's truck stop) , clerks, bankers, farmers..nothing specific or unusual. Almost everyone around my region is service sector/blue collar tho.
I could be wrong, but other than being picky regarding species, I don't think a virus is very particular about which respiratory tract it sets up house in.
No, I don't think the virus itself cares whose lung tissue it shacks up in. But some people afford it more opportunity than others to shack up in theirs. My generalization was based on the rates of home ownership in the hardest hit areas relative to the areas with fewer cases. Folks who are renting don't tend to be investing time and money into home improvement projects on a property someone else owns is all.
[This message has been edited by D B Cooper (edited 04-19-2020).]
No, I don't think the virus itself cares whose lung tissue it shacks up in. But some people afford it more opportunity than others to shack up in theirs. My generalization was based on the rates of home ownership in the hardest hit areas relative to the areas with fewer cases. Folks who are renting don't tend to be investing time and money into home improvement projects on a property someone else owns is all.
Don't forget that Michigan is allowing people who live in other states to go to vacation homes they have in Northern Mi. But people that already live in Michigan can't travel there.
We can now get paint and seeds at the smaller hardware stores, and Meijers has basically told Michigan to pound sand.
Originally posted by longjonsilver: Secondly, we are quickly driving this country to a second Great Depression where unemployment is at levels never before seen and where only the 1% and the major banks have anything resembling wealth. This Depression will be so devastating that it will make the first look weak in comparison, not just because of employment but because of the real human toll after decades of globalism, Free Trade, and urbanization have gutted this country of its workforce, manufacturing, healthcare, education, production capabilities, and general living standards.
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
Having stated it, you now get to prove it.
quote
The Bank of England has forecast that the coronavirus crisis will push the UK economy into its deepest recession in 300 years, with output plunging almost 30 per cent in the first half of the year,
Is the Financial times and the Bank of England authoritative enuf for y'all?
jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Is the Financial times and the Bank of England authoritative enuf for y'all?
jon
A great link and full of information for those that can't read or comprehend..or won't. The US is not GB.
Even so, the real takeaway from the article is as follows:
quote
In contrast to the gloomy assessment of the current economic position, the longer-term economic projections were more upbeat, with the BoE expecting “only limited scarring to the economy”.
The bank’s back-of-the-envelope scenarios assumed long-term damage to the economy would be only 1.5 per cent of gross domestic product and would come from missed business investment in 2020. Otherwise it predicted the economy would bounce back in a V-shaped recovery.
Mr Bailey said the economic rebound was likely to happen “much more rapidly than the pullback from the global financial crisis”.
But please, continue with your 'sky is falling' conspiracy crap. It is I suppose, slightly entertaining .
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-13-2020).]
[QUOTE]Originally posted by maryjane: But please, continue with your 'sky is falling' conspiracy crap. It is I suppose, slightly entertaining . [/QUOTE}
OK then, be slightly entertained by the plight of these people, many of whom are your neighbors.... And i suppose their jobs are part of the conspiracy?
And thanks to the lockdown which was worldwide (except for Sweden among developed countries) the UK data is relevant.
And? The sky is not falling, you aren't Henny Penny and this is not the end of the world. My reference to the US not being the UK has absolutely nothing to do with data.
(and, None of my neighbors are out of work.)
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 05-20-2020).]
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Coronavirus has long been known to virologists. It's a seasonal virus that mutates somewhat each year. In the past, it's routinely been dealt with through treatments that are both cheap and plentiful.
And yet, somehow, the release of corona in its latest mutation has been co-opted to justify a social and economic shutdown in over one hundred countries.
The knock-on effects of this shutdown have included, in the US alone:
A stock market crash Closures of major food producers, breaking down the food supply chain Depleted supermarket shelves, similar to Venezuela in some locations 26 million people filing for unemployment benefits within a five-week period Long-proven coronavirus treatments being described as risky and untested, with the insistence that only a vaccine that may take eighteen months to produce may be considered viable for treatment The economy in free-fall The ramping-up of economic threats against China, as punishment for the presumed Wuhan origin of the virus The two political parties disagreeing dramatically over the handling of the emergency, but both agreeing that any recovery must begin with greater powers for the government and a dramatic loss of freedoms for the populace. And all because of a common seasonal virus that has been known to researchers for years.
And we should bear in mind that more than ninety-nine percent of those who catch it are likely to make a full recovery. Children seem to be almost totally immune to its effects. And front-line doctors are reporting that the "presumed positive" cases and presumed deaths are greatly exaggerated beyond the actual.
Yet, Bill Gates has stated repeatedly that, "Things won't go back to normal until we have a vaccine that we've gotten out to, basically, the entire world."
This message, although it has been backed by no scientific basis whatever (and proffered by someone with no medical training whatever) has been echoed daily by the media as gospel.
And in spite of the fact that the rhetoric in the media doesn't in any way add up, the propaganda machine keeps rolling, further fueling irrational fears.
So, what could possibly be the reason for this worldwide drama, if it was inherently unnecessary?
Well, to answer this dilemma, we might wish to ask a well-known fictional detective: Sherlock Holmes.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, author of the Sherlock mysteries, was in the habit of having Sherlock say, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
So, let's stand back here for a moment. If we put aside the immense amount of noise surrounding the governmental handling of the coronavirus and look only at the outcome of the policies that are being created, what do we see?
We see that several of the world's governments have tossed inalienable rights aside on a wholesale basis and awarded to themselves the authority to decide over any future reinstatement. In their wake, very possibly out of fear and surprise, over one hundred otherwise well-meaning countries fell into step and did the same.
The essence of this is that essential freedoms no longer exist. In their place we have "permissions." In future, governments will determine who may or may not work, socialise in groups or travel. They will also establish the rules under which these permissions will be allowed.
This, we are told, is in the interest of the "common good."
And those who fail to comply may expect to have their wings clipped denied permission.
Since this is ultimately the outcome of the existing illogical handling of the virus, Sherlock might advise us that, far from being confusing, it all makes perfect sense.
We are told that all forms of the present quarantine are for the common good, that there can be a partial re-opening of the economy, but that this can be allowed only if personal freedoms are permanently lost. Interaction with others will be restricted. Travel will only be by permission. Everyone must be vaccinated. If too many people fail to comply, a return to lockdown will be necessary.
In those countries that once comprised the Free World, such a development is unprecedented. Never has a country in the former Free World taken over the entire economy, taking upon itself the authority to decide whether or not the populace can freely associate, work or travel.
This "quarantine" is the very definition of tyranny. Dressing it up as a necessary solution to a pandemic does not in any way change that fact.
For those who are unconvinced, it may be helpful to take a step back and clarify the terms under discussion.
Quarantine is when you restrict the movement of sick people.
Tyranny is when you restrict the movement of healthy people.
Tyranny now exists and it has been accomplished very quickly, with the tacit approval of the populace, under the assumption that it will be temporary.
But as Milton Friedman quipped, "Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program."
And in fact, we've been told that we will not be going back to normal. The greatest hope that anyone may entertain is that, over time, those rulers who have pulled off this coup will at some point deign to relinquish a portion of the tyranny that has been imposed.
Unfortunately, if we focus on what the outcome of the corona scare will be, rather than on the interim rhetoric, it does all make complete sense.
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
NO live streams available, yet thousands of people are gathering?
