A statue of Pancho Villa is located in Viente de Agosto Park. The park is between West Broadway and West Congress Street, and west of Church Avenue. Erected in June 1981, the statue was made by Julian Martinez and foundryman Javier Portilla. It was given as a gift to Arizona from Agrupacion Nacional Periodista, a Mexican press organization, and the Mexican government.
I am against the removal of historical items, no matter what they are. They were put there in the past, to commemorate something important in the minds of our ancestors; who are we to disrespect their decisions. Good or bad (subjective, based on the audience), historical items should be preserved to remind us all of our mistakes, defeats, triumphs, successes.....our collective history. The items do not belong to us, they belong to those that came before us, and those that will follow us. They are part of our cultural memory.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 12-11-2018).]
I am against the removal of historical items, no matter what they are. They were put there in the past, to commemorate something important in the minds of our ancestors; who are we to disrespect their decisions. Good or bad (subjective, based on the audience), historical items should be preserved to remind us all of our mistakes, defeats, triumphs, successes.....our collective history. The items do not belong to us, they belong to those that came before us, and those that will follow us. They are part of our cultural memory.Click to show
This is more or less how we feel here about this subject. I went the comedy route.
I am against the removal of historical items, no matter what they are. Good or bad (subjective, based on the audience), historical items should be preserved to remind us all of our mistakes, defeats, triumphs, successes.....our collective history. The items do not belong to us, they belong to those that came before us, and those that will follow us. They are part of our cultural memory.
I agree I believe they are left in our care to serve as a reminder (to the future) of what Men are capable of, both good & bad. Leaving the German Concentration Camps standing serves that purpose well.
It seems we have entered into a time where people of the present can only see the people of the past as either a universal hero or a universal villain. As if these were one-dimensional men living a one-dimensional times. Hindsight tunnel vision.
Worst yet, imagine removing books that could hurt others feelings...
Leftist members? Isn't it more like leftist member (singular)..?
It's not my city. It's not my statue. I don't give a "phuk" whether they tear it down or plate it with 18-carat gold.
The totalitarian mindset ceaselessly strives to reduce all non-conforming ideas and individuals to a singular, monolithic boogeyman. The "Left." Or the "Right." In this case, it happens to be the "Left."
That's all the entertainment I can offer at the moment, aside from my account of the Sunday night NFL game telecast, which became part of an email correspondence:
Chicago: Ursus Ascendant. A big win for the Bears and for the Bears fans that filled up Soldier Field. The high-scoring Rams were at the top of the heap... the best team record of them all, going into this Week 14 match-up. The game was played in air that was calm but cold--28 degrees when the game got underway.
The Bears defense took to the wintry weather like polar bears, stopping the Rams' fearsome running game "cold" and holding the Rams to just two measly first half field goals. It was a 6-6 tie at the end of the first half, each team having kicked two field goals. The Bears forged ahead in the third quarter, going up 8-6 on a Safety when they sacked the Rams QB in his own End Zone. They extended their lead to 15-6 in the third quarter on a clever pass play.
They needed just two yards for a TD. The Bears lined up in a "jumbo" formation, with big offensive and defensive linemen taking the place of a running back and receivers, looking as if they were going to try to overpower the Rams at the line of scrimmage with a simple running play. But the Bears QB faked a hand-off and rolled out to his right and passed for the TD.
The pass was reeled in by one of their big O-line tackles, who had declared himself "eligible" before the play. It's a hand signal that they use. I actually hadn't seen it done before. He just moved his hand across the numbers on the front of his jersey, in a way that the officiating crew would see it. There are like a gazillion rules of that kind in football that are "over my head."
The Rams saw their record drop to 11-2-0--same as the Chiefs--while the Bears upped theirs to 9-4-0. Click to show
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-11-2018).]
I agree w boonie that theyre reminders of good and bad. But then why put up statues of "bad"? Is there a statue of hitler somewhere? Lenin killed hella people why put up a statue of him in the first place? Why put up a pancho villa statue when we still have the alamo w pee wee hermans bike in the basement as a reminder?!
Let's hear our leftist members on this forum defend this. That should be entertaining.
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I am all in for removing this statue from public display. (Read as to why the statue is there and of it's historical weight before negging me please.)
I now feel the exact same about the Pancho Villa statue. A small amount of historical reading may do the same for a few. Knowing of a story is different than knowing history.
Thanks for posting Williegoat.
Edit: You will note that I did not mention the destruction of these statures. I will leave the erasure of history to the liberals and progressives.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 12-12-2018).]
Totally against removing either statue from public display.
Wanting removal of these 'offensive' works is just the same as wanting removal of the Confederate statues by the Left.
I disagree. Here is why...
The statues do not offend me.
The statue of Lenin was brought in and erected in it's current position by a man not wanting America to thrive. It's place in Seattle is a FU to our Republic and has been placed there merely by accident. This was not meant to be a permanent home.
Using Wiki here, but please correct me if I am wrong.
The statue of Villa, if understood by the left, would not only be torn down, but it would become the symbol for our current #METOO movement. Less his crimes against America by a foreign invader.
I read the WIKI article. I have no problem with either statue. Cochise and Sitting Bull were also enemies of America. Their statues should not be defaced, removed or destroyed either.
America is about freedoms of all types. I am particularly in favor of the freedom of remembrance. Know the stories behind the statues. Learn from the stories what you may, and put the knowledge to use in the world around you.
Totally against removing either statue from public display.
Wanting removal of these 'offensive' works is just the same as wanting removal of the Confederate statues by the Left.
Please note that while I did encourage an explanation, I did not say that I want the Lenin statue removed.
I do suspect that the request filed by Judicial Watch re. the Zapata statue is actually intended, not to remove the statue, but to provoke some other legal or political result.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 12-13-2018).]
Yeah, I was surprised that JW was involved. You are probably right, they are playing a long game.
That was the reason I posted the thread, and titled it "Horse of a Different Color". I wanted to see the juxtaposition of principle and ideology.
Although I usually don't like to see any artwork, particularly that of an historical nature, removed or destroyed; if it is on public property, the decision is ultimately that of the citizens and their duly elected representatives.
If someone wanted to erect a monument to Adolf Hitler in downtown Glendale, I would oppose it. However, if it were already there before I moved here, I would have to accept it and try to understand it. Then I would tell everyone I lived in Phoenix.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 12-12-2018).]
Although I usually don't like to see any artwork, particularly that of an historical nature, removed or destroyed; if it is on public property, the decision is ultimately that of the citizens and their duly elected representatives.
My heart wants to agree with this, until I contemplate communities where time moves slowly enough for the citizens there, that a lynching still seems like a perfectly normal way to mete out justice.
Are statues protected under the same umbrella as Free Speech?
Isn't it said that our Free Speech Protections were not put there for the things we want to hear, they were put there for the things we don't want to hear? Does that include see?
Originally posted by olejoedad: Cochise and Sitting Bull were also enemies of America.
Lol!
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Originally posted by olejoedad: America is about freedoms of all types. I am particularly in favor of the freedom of remembrance. Know the stories behind the statues. Learn from the stories what you may, and put the knowledge to use in the world around you.
My heart wants to agree with this, until I contemplate communities where time moves slowly enough for the citizens there, that a lynching still seems like a perfectly normal way to mete out justice.
So, you are opposed to capital punishment. That is a completely different issue. Citizens have the right to choose that which is displayed in their collective "front yard".
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Are statues protected under the same umbrella as Free Speech?
Yes.
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Isn't it said that our Free Speech Protections were not put there for the things we want to hear, they were put there for the things we don't want to hear? Does that include see?
If I choose to place a statue of a donkey with my ex wife's face in my front yard, I may do so because I have the right to free speech. However I may not place such a statue in the public square because only those who have met her would deem it appropriate.
My heart wants to agree with this, until I contemplate communities where time moves slowly enough for the citizens there, that a lynching still seems like a perfectly normal way to mete out justice.
You seem to say that citizens might not make intelligent decisions, so someone else, someone wiser might need to decide for them.
The citizenry agreeing on what may be placed on display in a common area is not the same as vandalism, just as capital punishment is not a lynch mob. In each case, one is the rule of law, while the other is anarchy.
The citizenry agreeing on what may be placed on display in a common area is not the same as vandalism, just as capital punishment is not a lynch mob. In each case, one is the rule of law, while the other is anarchy.
There are legal and non criminal ways of accomplishing a community goal. You are correct, anarchy is not the way.
Even if I do not like a statue for whatever reasons, I have never called for outright removal. I have never protested professionally.
(Read as to why the statue is there and of it's historical weight before negging me please.)
