Originally posted by RayOtton: The free market will determine that a burger flipper doesn't make more money than an EMT technician.
I dont believe that, Ray.
Without SOME sort of minimum wage protection (not necissarily the current laws or systems) we will be returning to a fuedal or "company store slavery" system. for an easy reason. Human nature.
Socialism fells ENTITLED to free labor and will take it by force. Capitalism strives for lowest possible cost to maximize profits (hence made-in-china-with-10-cent-labor), but in the end the Canadian/ Amrican worker is left in the same boat--working for free. Under one system by compulson, under the other "because if you wont somebody in timbuktu will". Makes no difference to the average guy here, he is still ****ed without that protection.
As a society we have been there before, and without some sort of protection OR serious changes to "the system" right down to the source of money (fiat-fractal banking) we will be returning.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 01-08-2018).]
The left likes to talk about the “butterfly effect” when it suits their needs; climate change, cultural bias, etc. However, they would prefer that we forget about that mechanism in situation such as this.
You cannot artificially manipulate one aspect of the economy without causing ripples throughout the system.
Enact and enforce all the laws necessary to prevent worker abuse.
Then let the free market work it's magic. Plain as the nose on your face, capitalism has been the single best system for fighting poverty that the world has ever known. Not perfect, just best.
Keep in mind that we've already come a ways as a society since the early days of coal mining and weaving mills. In fact, with all the federal safeguards in place now we don't even need unions to protect workers. They've morphed into unregulated PAC's.
BTW, enforcing worker protection laws might entail hanging a few executives from lamp posts to get their attention. I have no problem with that approach.
It would have gotten MY attention, I can tell you that. Although, FWIW, I treated my crews as the most important commodity in the company, sometimes to the detriment of my own career advancement. Lot of blood split on the boardroom floor over the years, some of it not mine.
The problem, as always, is getting the laws enforced equally no matter the size of the bank accounts involved. Might have to hang a few lawyers up there with their clients.
Basically,we'd all do a lot better with personal responsibility in conjunction with better morals. Both of which have taken a beating of late and I haven't a clue how we get that back without hanging ALL the Liberals up there too.
Enact and enforce all the laws necessary to prevent worker abuse.
Then let the free market work it's magic. Plain as the nose on your face, capitalism has been the single best system for fighting poverty that the world has ever known. Not perfect, just best.
Keep in mind that we've already come a ways as a society since the early days of coal mining and weaving mills. In fact, with all the federal safeguards in place now we don't even need unions to protect workers. They've morphed into unregulated PAC's.
BTW, enforcing worker protection laws might entail hanging a few executives from lamp posts to get their attention. I have no problem with that approach.
It would have gotten MY attention, I can tell you that. Although, FWIW, I treated my crews as the most important commodity in the company, sometimes to the detriment of my own career advancement. Lot of blood split on the boardroom floor over the years, some of it not mine.
The problem, as always, is getting the laws enforced equally no matter the size of the bank accounts involved. Might have to hang a few lawyers up there with their clients.
Basically,we'd all do a lot better with personal responsibility in conjunction with better morals. Both of which have taken a beating of late and I haven't a clue how we get that back without hanging ALL the Liberals up there too.
Yes, integrity would do wonders for both sides of the equation. Just wonder how you enforce integrity on shareholders who don't even necessarily care, if the company survives. So long as they make a profit.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-08-2018).]
....... Just wonder how you enforce integrity on shareholders who don't even necessarily care, if the company survives. So long as they make a profit.
Run for your lives! The body snatchers have invaded. I don't know if they're from outer space or the European mainland but in either case, it's clear now that they've got Dennis.
Come to think of it, where is Furgal?
OMG, they got him too!
Watch out, Randye's probably next. See if he starts revisiting all the threads where I posted that sexy picture of Hillary in a skimpy outfit.
Or maybe Roger. I mean, their flying saucers can fly faster than light so they should be able catch a septuagenarian hauling a trunk full of gold at 140 MPH. Am I right?
Not too sure about Blackrams. He keeps falling on his head. Maybe he's got one of the things on his back throwing off his balance.
And let's keep an eye on Willie. It will be a dead giveaway if he start playing one of those "Star Wars" bar scene instruments.
Oh and Tony. Anyone around who can see if he's lifting eight sheets of Sheetrock sorry, load bearing Sheetrock? 'cuz that's in superhuman territory right there.
Seriously though, let's not start vilifying shareholders.
They reap the profits.................BUT THEY ALSO TOOK THE RISKS
Oh and BTW, the vast majority of stockholders, you guys included if you have mutual funds and such, want the companies to thrive. Right?
[This message has been edited by RayOtton (edited 01-08-2018).]
Oh and Tony. Anyone around who can see if he's lifting eight sheets of Sheetrock sorry, load bearing Sheetrock? 'cuz that's in superhuman territory right there. ...
Only two sheets were given. Hence the hiring wishes.
And, that is load bearing electricity free drywall! The pre-drilled type.
Edit: And how evil of you to work for your living Ray! How evil indeed.
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 01-08-2018).]
Basically,we'd all do a lot better with personal responsibility in conjunction with better morals. Both of which have taken a beating of late and I haven't a clue how we get that back ...
Can't say it better than that myself. But hey its not unheard news.
"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions.."
" People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, .."
Run for your lives! The body snatchers have invaded. I don't know if they're from outer space or the European mainland but in either case, it's clear now that they've got Dennis.
Come to think of it, where is Furgal?
OMG, they got him too!
Watch out, Randye's probably next. See if he starts revisiting all the threads where I posted that sexy picture of Hillary in a skimpy outfit.
Or maybe Roger. I mean, their flying saucers can fly faster than light so they should be able catch a septuagenarian hauling a trunk full of gold at 140 MPH. Am I right?
Not too sure about Blackrams. He keeps falling on his head. Maybe he's got one of the things on his back throwing off his balance.
And let's keep an eye on Willie. It will be a dead giveaway if he start playing one of those "Star Wars" bar scene instruments.
Oh and Tony. Anyone around who can see if he's lifting eight sheets of Sheetrock sorry, load bearing Sheetrock? 'cuz that's in superhuman territory right there.
Seriously though, let's not start vilifying shareholders.
They reap the profits.................BUT THEY ALSO TOOK THE RISKS
Oh and BTW, the vast majority of stockholders, you guys included if you have mutual funds and such, want the companies to thrive. Right?
Pump and dump is a thing, it happens even if the vast majority want the company to thrive. The question remains, if we could impose integrity on corporations and their workers, what motivates shareholders to care past the biggest return?
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-08-2018).]
Originally posted by dennis_6: Pump and dump is a thing, it happens even if the vast majority want the company to thrive.
Pump and dump is securities fraud that artificially inflates the price of a stock, the so called "penny stocks" through false and misleading positive statements, in order to sell the cheaply purchased stock at a higher price.
It is NOT legitimate trading and the SEC comes down on this scam pretty hard. These "penny stocks" have been the target of heightened enforcement efforts in the US. Regulators have defined a "penny stock" as a security that must meet a number of specific standards. The criteria include price, market capitalization, and minimum shareholder equity.
So, again, enact and enforce all the laws necessary to stop this illegal behavior.
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6: The question remains, if we could impose integrity on corporations and their workers, what motivates shareholders to care past the biggest return?
This question makes no sense. Please rephrase.
[This message has been edited by RayOtton (edited 01-08-2018).]
I realize pump and dump is illegal, along with insider trading and various other "ethics" problems.
The point is, abolishing min wage just takes a pen stroke.
Everything else is far harder to enforce, especially on the investing side. Prove it was pump and dump...
Abolishing minimum wage without safe guarding workers against corporate and investor "ethics" deficiencies, and we end up in a full blown socialist welfare state.
I don't believe we have laws capable of preventing it on the books, if you have a solution, I would love to hear it.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-08-2018).]
Aren't you one of the guys around here that always says socialism, Democratic Socialism and Communism are all the same thing AND one eventually leads to the other?
As I said earlier, you are not the strict constitutionalist you think you are.
I guess we've wrung this out and sadly, I haven't convinced you that your position is contrary to, well, everything you've previously espoused.
I am not personally impacted by minimum wage. I don't get paid by the hour.
Hear me out...
Everything that we purchase is impacted by a state wage increase such as this. Think of all the simple jobs that folks do as you go about your day. I do mean simple. Not everything is a skill. So, all of those folks that you may not even see but need to go about our very own days, suddenly get a large increase. Not only that, but now all that are skilled, or semi skilled are paid a lesser percentage of their abilities compared to the potato checking carts at Walmart. Playing the childhood game of card match is not on par with learned skill.
Aren't you one of the guys around here that always says socialism, Democratic Socialism and Communism are all the same thing AND one eventually leads to the other?
As I said earlier, you are not the strict constitutionalist you think you are.
I guess we've wrung this out and sadly, I haven't convinced you that your position is contrary to, well, everything you've previously espoused.
I have stated, I am for the removal of the minimum wage, with appropriate safe guards in place. Still waiting on your plan to safe guard workers and employers. Present a realistic one and I will agree.
Public schools, police, even the military are socialist services. How many of the above are you willing to do without?
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-09-2018).]
Everything that we purchase is impacted by a state wage increase such as this. Think of all the simple jobs that folks do as you go about your day. I do mean simple. Not everything is a skill. So, all of those folks that you may not even see but need to go about our very own days, suddenly get a large increase. Not only that, but now all that are skilled, or semi skilled are paid a lesser percentage of their abilities compared to the potato checking carts at Walmart. Playing the childhood game of card match is not on par with learned skill.
I understand, I was just trying to state I am not a min wage worker arguing for my own survival. I do not want a 15 dollar min wage.
Appropriate for whom? Who decides what is appropriate? And, exactly what is appropriate?
Is the $108/mo level an appropriate level of socialism?
Safeguards would not be a minimum income, I have touched on it in previous post. Such as anything that artificially devalues American labor. IE illegal labor.
Originally posted by RayOtton: So, degrees of socialism are now OK?
Aren't you one of the guys around here that always says socialism, Democratic Socialism and Communism are all the same thing AND one eventually leads to the other?
As I said earlier, you are not the strict constitutionalist you think you are.
I guess we've wrung this out and sadly, I haven't convinced you that your position is contrary to, well, everything you've previously espoused.
And you then edited your post -
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6: Ok, so I take it that you do not have a solution.
Minimum wage is socialism, though not as socialist as a full blown welfare state.
I am not personally impacted by minimum wage. I don't get paid by the hour.
So you want to pin me down to finding a solution to the ethics problem while editing your posts when I point out you are supporting a position contrary to your ethics?
Haven't looked at it recently but the last time I did (several years ago) said something to the effect that it's "illegal for an employer to knowingly hire an undocumented worker". In my region, most illegals nowadays have falsified documents to present and it would take a team of FBI agents to discover they were false. The only true 'fix' is throwing out all illegals and building 'the wall' but even the first part of that would be difficult for the same reasons it is so difficult to prove a job applicant's documentation is forged, or actually belongs to someone here legally.
(I went into combat under 'socialism' making $108/mo)
So you want to pin me down to finding a solution to the ethics problem while editing your posts when I point out you are supporting a position contrary to your ethics?
I'm done talking to you.
Wow, I drive for a living. I respond quickly when I have a chance. IE stopped for a minute and come back to things when I can. If I didn't have a chance to expand on a subject. I do so when I have a chance, but I am not aware of anytime I have edited after you responded to a post and I certainly haven't edited to decieve.
This wasn't a argument for me, I didn't see you as the "enemy". I did hope however, that you may have had the key to ending minimum wage. Your perspective and life experience is different than mine.
Wow, I drive for a living. I respond quickly when I have a chance. IE stopped for a minute and come back to things when I can. If I didn't have a chance to expand on a subject. I do so when I have a chance, but I am not aware of anytime I have edited after you responded to a post and I certainly haven't edited to decieve.
This wasn't a argument for me, I didn't see you as the "enemy". I did hope however, that you may have had the key to ending minimum wage. Your perspective and life experience is different than mine.
You didn't make a new post, you EDITED your post when I challenged you.
A lesser degree of it was referring to a lesser degree of socialism. The edited post I stated min wage is socialism, which flowed better with the expanded post, where a lesser degree would have made no sense.
They state the exact same thing, the agreement with your assertion that min wage is socialism. I don't understand your percieved problem.
You didn't make a new post, you EDITED your post when I challenged you.
Done.
Sorry you feel that way, have a great day. I am still at a loss of why you feel I did something wrong. I have read through it repeatedly, to see if I inadvertently did something underhanded. I honestly don't see it.
Haven't looked at it recently but the last time I did (several years ago) said something to the effect that it's "illegal for an employer to knowingly hire an undocumented worker". In my region, most illegals nowadays have falsified documents to present and it would take a team of FBI agents to discover they were false. The only true 'fix' is throwing out all illegals and building 'the wall' but even the first part of that would be difficult for the same reasons it is so difficult to prove a job applicant's documentation is forged, or actually belongs to someone here legally.
(I went into combat under 'socialism' making $108/mo)
The socialist aspect I was referring to was a part time burger flipper. Enjoys the same benefit of protection that a billionaire does. As for combat pay, I don't believe it has ever been enough. It was too low when you served and it still is today.
'Angry' premier, labour minister to crack down on businesses over labour law "TORONTO -- Premier Kathleen Wynne and Labour Minister Kevin Flynn are riled up over businesses that thwart the “spirit” of new labour laws or worse. ... “Unfortunately, it appears that some employers are abandoning the spirit of this legislation, and some may even be doing more than that,” he said Monday. “The stories we've all heard over the past week have not only been disappointing but, quite frankly, they've made the premier, myself and others in this province angry.
“This bullying behaviour will not be tolerated,” he said. ... Flynn said the law requires all employers to comply with the minimum wage even if they've signed long-term contracts that didn't anticipate the rapid rise. ... Flynn acknowledged that consumer prices might be going up in response to the minimum wage increase, but said the government has an obligation to bring “fairness and decency” to the economy.
A representative of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB), whose members include small and medium-sized companies, took 14 tries to get through the busy signal last week, and an online education session arranged by the labour ministry has been scheduled for the end of January.
The CFIB has asked for a six-month grace period so that employers can be educated about the new rules before beefed-up fines kick in. "
Fines, oh what a surprise, government making money.
The socialist aspect I was referring to was a part time burger flipper. Enjoys the same benefit of protection that a billionaire does. As for combat pay, I don't believe it has ever been enough. It was too low when you served and it still is today.
Protection from not getting a fair wage for the job he does. Which is dictated by what? That is the question.
Nailed it....BUT in this case its the companies being the tyrants throwing temper tantrums. Like it or not, $14/hr IS now the law here, and if you don't wanna pay that then close up shop or move elsewhere until the law changes more to your liking. Nobody is FORCING you to run a business and its a big planet. Find a spot you DO like.
I have a LOT of experience dealing with companies who feel they are above the law, staff have no rights, and they will do as they please to staff. Even had one boss about 10 years ago try and tell me what religion I was going to follow (Law of Attraction) and what I was going to think (Positive-only) and that they were not going to pay or record O/T worked above the maximum legal limit (I was "volunteering")
They learned otherwise in a VERY expensive manner. Actually, I have YET to loose a war against this kind of company, and I AM a big enough a-hole that if they want to **** with me, I WILL air all of the companies dirty laundry in public. You can BET they dont like that.
(Yes, I am being an azz and playing devils advocate part-way, but on the other hand what would happen if we all just decided laws don't apply to us because_______ and flatly, openly refused to follow the, flaunted it and told our victims "**** you". I'm also seeing low-wage earners being used as political pawns between big business and big government.)
Protection from not getting a fair wage for the job he does. Which is dictated by what? That is the question.
Wasn't speaking of protection of wages. I was speaking of the literal protection the military provides equally for the burger flipper as well as the billionaire. Despite the billionaire paying far more for that protection.
I have a LOT of experience dealing with companies who feel they are above the law, staff have no rights, and they will do as they please to staff. Even had one boss about 10 years ago try and tell me what religion I was going to follow (Law of Attraction) and what I was going to think (Positive-only) and that they were not going to pay or record O/T worked above the maximum legal limit (I was "volunteering")
They learned otherwise in a VERY expensive manner. Actually, I have YET to loose a war against this kind of company, and I AM a big enough a-hole that if they want to **** with me, I WILL air all of the companies dirty laundry in public. You can BET they dont like that.
(Yes, I am being an azz and playing devils advocate part-way, but on the other hand what would happen if we all just decided laws don't apply to us because_______ and flatly, openly refused to follow the, flaunted it and told our victims "**** you". I'm also seeing low-wage earners being used as political pawns between big business and big government.)
MEM, I worked my way up the corporate ladder from $2.50/ hour washing quartz glassware in HF acid to the corner office pulling down $250K.
Worked in 12 different corporations in 35 years. Mostly electronics but a stint in fiberglass manufacturing and IT management in a slaughter house. These companies ran the gamut from startups who didn't know if they had enough money for the next payroll to $200M industry behemoths.
A fairly varied career path and none of that stuff happened in any of them.
Of course, it is anecdotal, just like your experiences are but my contention is that the overwhelming majority of corporations are not evil entities.
Oh, I agree Ray. I actually never had problems until my early 40's, and 2 of the main 3 culprits were Quebec-owned outfits. Its been a long-standing problem between the 2 provinces that they try and bring their laws here, and to be fair I've heard stories of it going the other way. The 3rd was a small place with very shaky income and funding in WAY over their heads trying to go against the "big boys" and were basically lashing out in desperation. I held the one branch together for a year, and after I left they closed it simply because they couldnt find anybody else willing to put up with what that business dished out.
The other factor in it is me. I really CAN be an blunt, ornery SOB at times and basically I'll say "no" nicely once. The second time it wont be nicely, the 3rd I'll outright ask if you are deaf or stupid, and if I have to say it a 4th you are going to war. THAT can be a major personality clash when dealing with people who are used to negotiating and talking until they get their own way. NOPE, they are not going to.
Originally posted by RayOttonRun for y: Oh and BTW, the vast majority of stockholders, you guys included if you have mutual funds and such, want the companies to thrive. Right?
Bingo!
If you have auto insurance or health insurance, your insurance company invests customer's premiums, so you're indirectly a shareholder.
If you have a retirement fund you're a shareholder pooled together with other people just like you.
If you're a member of a trade union, your union also invests it's money into the market.
If you bank with a credit union or a commercial bank, they also invest in the market.
Go to college? Yup, those institutions of higher learning also invest funds in the market.
The city, county and even state you live in also invests in the market.
We all have a very definite interest, (pun intended), in seeing the stock markets thrive whether you realize it or not.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-09-2018).]
Internet and shat. 
