My father was 30 years old before the driver's license was required in Illinois. Then it was just a formality and testing of new drivers didn't start till 1953.
Very interesting perspective. I hadn't considered this since there has always been a drivers license since the day I was born.
That said... when you get one now, you "are" consenting to sobriety tests.
I think if someone is going to fight, they have to fight that... the automatic consent.
quote
Originally posted by Fats:
Talking about these things online doesn't get you arrested just yet. I think (really) that that day is coming. We are more and more complacent toward the police state. However, standing up and saying anything and you are given the "crazy" label from most of the sheeple, if you are lucky.
Anyway, I'm rambling.
Brad
Technically, with the elimination of Net Neutrality... it's MUCH harder for the government to regulate speech on the internet.
quote
Originally posted by Wichita:
Would you say it is unconstitutional to have to have a permit to conceal carry a firearm?
I want everyone to have a picture ID before they vote... so that puts me in a quandary. Not that I disagree with needing a permit to conceal a firearm... but how easy it is to get the permit is the question. In my personal opinion, it should be totally free (paid for by the state's tax revenue).
See above article i posted, the supreme court has found interstate travel to be a uninalienable right. I would also point you to the ninth amendment. Yes, they have a right to regulate to a degree, no they do not have a right to search without probable cause. You can waive your rights, but you can not waive other peoples.
Yes, your right, everyone has the right to travel into any state they want (unless it violates parole). It only says you can go there...not that you can drive or fly yourself without a license just because you want to...if you want to walk, hitch or ride a bus or plane, thats fine. I didnt mention anything at all about searches. Im good with the system the way it is. It should be illegal to search you or vehicle without permission or probable cause. Open beer bottles rolling around the floor or pot smoke coming out the window is probable cause to me.
Yes, your right, everyone has the right to travel into any state they want (unless it violates parole). It only says you can go there...not that you can drive or fly yourself without a license just because you want to...if you want to walk, hitch or ride a bus or plane, thats fine. I didnt mention anything at all about searches. Im good with the system the way it is. It should be illegal to search you or vehicle without permission or probable cause. Open beer bottles rolling around the floor or pot smoke coming out the window is probable cause to me.
Absolutely agree, and I believe license are a good thing, but the privilege terminology needs to be removed from government perspective. Driving should only be revoked when that person demonstrates they endanger others. Much like felons lose the right to firearms. Drunks, especially habitual offenders should never drive again.
I want everyone to have a picture ID before they vote... so that puts me in a quandary. Not that I disagree with needing a permit to conceal a firearm... but how easy it is to get the permit is the question. In my personal opinion, it should be totally free (paid for by the state's tax revenue).
I don't have a problem with ID requirements, I don't even have a problem with CCW classes. However, the cost should be reasonable, your id should work for drivers, pilot, ccw, purchasing firearms, unregulated access to nfa items, and voting. Fingerprint at the time of ID, no more redundant checks.
Originally posted by Fats: It's my firm belief that if the Police would simply enforce the laws already on the books, that the roads would be safer, and there would be a lot less impared drivers out there.
I don't have a problem with ID requirements, I don't even have a problem with CCW classes. However, the cost should be reasonable, your id should work for drivers, pilot, ccw, purchasing firearms, unregulated access to nfa items, and voting. Fingerprint at the time of ID, no more redundant checks.
That's interesting...
You could simply append items onto your "drivers license" that would simply grant you other privileges like pilot / ccw / voter registration, etc... there-by eliminating the need for multiple cards.
I do dislike the fact that we're "cataloged," but I suppose this isn't the old west anymore where you could hop in the covered wagon and just plant new roots somewhere.
Do I follow the law? Yes. Do I think it's a law that is against the Constitution? Again, yes.
Permit is wrong, id to prove you are who you say you are and a ccw class or some other form of firearms safety class are not. Cost must be reasonable for even a min wage worker and it should just be tacked on to drivers license or state id for non drivers. IE 25 dollars for the whole shebang.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: That's interesting...
You could simply append items onto your "drivers license" that would simply grant you other privileges like pilot / ccw / voter registration, etc... there-by eliminating the need for multiple cards.
I do dislike the fact that we're "cataloged," but I suppose this isn't the old west anymore where you could hop in the covered wagon and just plant new roots somewhere.
Firm believer of the concept that my rights stop where yours begin and vice versa. It should be easy for a officer to tell if a person should not have a firearm. Also having to go thru a background check everytime a firearm is purchased is stupid. Have a database of prohibited persons, check id against database. 2 seconds and done. No atf call centers, no reason for a fee. I also hate being cataloged, and I don't consider anything on the list a privilege, other than flight. I do understand the need to keep felons, minors, and the truly insane from firearms and illegals or non residents from voting. Much the same as keeping minors from purchasing alcohol or cigs and no more intrusive. Fingerprints would make fake id damn near impossible. I want the NFA of 34 abolished, because this would remove its so called reason for existence.
Warning, opinion ahead. If you actually feel that I am talking to you, then perhaps we are on to something here. For the most part many of our central to right leaning members will understand my words. 85% of the left will get an emotion or have a reaction.
1. ID: I believe all should have an ID. If you do not, then suspicions should arise.
2. Concealed Carry: I wholeheartedly want people to take a safety class, a handling, class, a morals class, and perhaps anything else needed to use a fire arm correctly in the public's domain. I site nearly all of the populace that I see during my daily travels as an example for need of proper training.
3. Driving: See # 2.
4. Background checks: Enough of the everyday intrusions into my life. One and done! I have worked so hard for most of my 45 years of life to be within all compliance's of life within the United States. It is the moronic level of leftism that limits my ability to live a free life. The difficulty OTHERS have with the ability to follow the simplest rules of society punishes ME.
5. Leave me alone. Just in general leave me the **** alone. Feel free to approach and strike up a conversation, but please stop intruding upon my life because of your mental illness. I have had a real life stalker, several internet stalkers, shat sent to my home, and countless other severe and unlawful intrusions into my life due to leftists with illnesses. Even actual court proceedings where I had to defend myself against unmaterialized accusations, and won. It is not the winning that sealed the deal, but the fact there of.
Enjoy your day
[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 01-03-2018).]
Permit is wrong, id to prove you are who you say you are and a ccw class or some other form of firearms safety class are not. Cost must be reasonable for even a min wage worker and it should just be tacked on to drivers license or state id for non drivers. IE 25 dollars for the whole shebang.
I'm a little more extreme. I don't think licensing of any form should exist from the Government. If you aren't capable of driving you shouldn't drive. If you are driving, and are infringing on the rights of others, then the Police should step in and stop you from driving. Almost every form of licensing from the Government is either to limit competition, or make money. There are many ways to do things without a licensing system. I'm fine with ID. Prove who you are etc. etc.
And before the argument comes. You guys are out on the roads. What do you see that taking away licenses would change? The bad drivers still get licenses, or they simply drive without them. Doing away with the system changes nothing except takes away money from the Government. Once again, punish the bad drivers, enforce the laws already on the books.
Doctors. Doctors can still get certification from colleges, and Hospitals. Once again, if someone puts someone else in danger while practicing their "freedom"... Then they should be punished.
In every case "professionals" have to go to a college in order to get certification, and then apply for licensing once working. The licensing is an unnecessary second step. Think this through. You don't go to a Doctor because he was licensed in NY... You go to a doctor that is good at what he does.
Cars. Cars should get a plate when made.. They already do, so use it. The Plates on the back should reference the VIN, just in order to tell vehicles apart.
Warning, opinion ahead. If you actually feel that I am talking to you, then perhaps we are on to something here. For the most part many of our central to right leaning members will understand my words. 85% of the left will get an emotion or have a reaction.
1. ID: I believe all should have an ID. If you do not, then suspicions should arise.
2. Concealed Carry: I wholeheartedly want people to take a safety class, a handling, class, a morals class, and perhaps anything else needed to use a fire arm correctly in the public's domain. I site nearly all of the populace that I see during my daily travels as an example for need of proper training.
3. Driving: See # 2.
4. Background checks: Enough of the everyday intrusions into my life. One and done! I have worked so hard for most of my 45 years of life to be within all compliance's of life within the United States. It is the moronic level of leftism that limits my ability to live a free life. The difficulty OTHERS have with the ability to follow the simplest rules of society punishes ME.
5. Leave me alone. Just in general leave me the **** alone. Feel free to approach and strike up a conversation, but please stop intruding upon my life because of your mental illness. I have had a real life stalker, several internet stalkers, shat sent to my home, and countless other severe and unlawful intrusions into my life due to leftists with illnesses. Even actual court proceedings where I had to defend myself against unmaterialized accusations, and won. It is not the winning that sealed the deal, but the fact there of.
I find you to be more astute than most. I would not call it extreme unless it is coming from a mildly left leaner.
quote
I don't think licensing of any form should exist from the Government. If you aren't capable of driving you shouldn't drive. If you are driving, and are infringing on the rights of others, then the Police should step in and stop you from driving. Almost every form of licensing from the Government is either to limit competition, or make money. There are many ways to do things without a licensing system. I'm fine with ID. Prove who you are etc. etc.
And before the argument comes. You guys are out on the roads. What do you see that taking away licenses would change? The bad drivers still get licenses, or they simply drive without them. Doing away with the system changes nothing except takes away money from the Government. Once again, punish the bad drivers, enforce the laws already on the books. Click to show
My take on road licensing: There should be several levels of road licensing. IE., good and capable drivers should be given extended privileges compared to those that are less capable. Enough of this equal shat. It is not equal in any way that I should be held down because so many cannot operate within lawful limits. Too much of people that do nothing, continue to rot out society, and even put others at peril due to negligence and uncertain aptitude.
...
quote
Cars. Cars should get a plate when made.. They already do, so use it. The Plates on the back should reference the VIN, just in order to tell vehicles apart.
Brad
Interesting. I cannot think of a more efficient way to handle such a thing.
Would you say it is unconstitutional to have to have a permit to conceal carry a firearm?
The Constitution gives you the right to have arms. A state issued (for now) permit allows you to carry it concealed. Ownership is your right, CCP is a privilege. If you can legally own a gun, no one can stop you from having it. If a state says you cant have a CCP, thats their right to not grant you that privilege, provided they have a legal reason to do so.
Originally posted by Tony Kania: Interesting. I cannot think of a more efficient way to handle such a thing.
Its a state controlled thing right now. Some states issue plates to a vehicle owner for a particular vehicle, others like Okla issue plates to the vehicle. When you sell a car there, the plate stays on the car. I dont know how they handle vanity plates though.
The one that gets me on the whole topic, is the seperation between public roads and private property.
Here in Ontario, you dont even have to be driving to get charged. Working on your car in your own driveway while having a few ? Thats "care and control"
Having a beer on the utility tractor while you cut the lawn 250 yards from the nearest road...YUP, thats impaired driving.
Horses, bicycles, electric OR regular wheelchairs, mobility scooters ? Those all count too, be it on public land or private.
It HAS turned into a witch-hunt the past 30 years and the laws need to be reformed to apply some common sense. I can recal discussions sevweral years ago where some people wanted mandatory ignition interlocks in ALL cars/ trucks. Blow the tube before it will start no matter who or where you are.
NOW, about 10 years ago they brought on "graduated levels of impaired"....08%BAC gets a full-blown charge, but .05% gets a 7-day licence suspension and vehicle impoundment. AND, with graduated licencing everyone under age 21 is on a 0.0% limit.
It HAS become more and more about using transportation as a means for social control.
On the checkpoints, (called R.I.D.E. stops here), I've seen and been thru them at 5 or 6 am, they are trying to catch the ones who are hung-over from the night before. I've also see them sut down a 400 series highway (6 lanes in each direction) down to a single lane to set up a checkpoint....in the middle of the night.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 01-03-2018).]
Warning, opinion ahead. If you actually feel that I am talking to you, then perhaps we are on to something here. For the most part many of our central to right leaning members will understand my words. 85% of the left will get an emotion or have a reaction.
1. ID: I believe all should have an ID. If you do not, then suspicions should arise.
2. Concealed Carry: I wholeheartedly want people to take a safety class, a handling, class, a morals class, and perhaps anything else needed to use a fire arm correctly in the public's domain. I site nearly all of the populace that I see during my daily travels as an example for need of proper training.
3. Driving: See # 2.
4. Background checks: Enough of the everyday intrusions into my life. One and done! I have worked so hard for most of my 45 years of life to be within all compliance's of life within the United States. It is the moronic level of leftism that limits my ability to live a free life. The difficulty OTHERS have with the ability to follow the simplest rules of society punishes ME.
5. Leave me alone. Just in general leave me the **** alone. Feel free to approach and strike up a conversation, but please stop intruding upon my life because of your mental illness. I have had a real life stalker, several internet stalkers, shat sent to my home, and countless other severe and unlawful intrusions into my life due to leftists with illnesses. Even actual court proceedings where I had to defend myself against unmaterialized accusations, and won. It is not the winning that sealed the deal, but the fact there of.
Enjoy your day
Wow! I agree pretty much with everything you just said. Am I center right?. I can agree with some conservatives and some liberals. I've always considered myself center left.
And before the argument comes. You guys are out on the roads. What do you see that taking away licenses would change? The bad drivers still get licenses, or they simply drive without them.
Brad
That's a good point, and that correlates with a lot of other situations.
Rules are generally for bad guys. Bad guys don't follow the rules, good guys do.
With respect to limitation, unless a precaution is used to CATCH a bad-guy (or ensure safe practices), then the precaution doesn't make sense. Like with guns. All these gun laws only hinder GOOD people from getting one.
Likewise, I'd be interested in buying a gun, but I just don't want to go through the hassle. Bad guys will be undeterred, rules to them are suggestions.
Likewise, I'd be interested in buying a gun, but I just don't want to go through the hassle. Bad guys will be undeterred, rules to them are suggestions.
Huh, I always thought you carried? No reason I suppose. Just seem like the type to be courteous and cautious.
I encourage you to make that purchase. Learn the rules and morality of gun ownership. It can be therapeutic.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: That's a good point, and that correlates with a lot of other situations.
Rules are generally for bad guys. Bad guys don't follow the rules, good guys do.
With respect to limitation, unless a precaution is used to CATCH a bad-guy (or ensure safe practices), then the precaution doesn't make sense. Like with guns. All these gun laws only hinder GOOD people from getting one.
Likewise, I'd be interested in buying a gun, but I just don't want to go through the hassle. Bad guys will be undeterred, rules to them are suggestions.
While ilI agree, it is a hassle. That hassle beats the hassle of attending the funeral of a loved a one, or being the guest of honor at one.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-03-2018).]
Huh, I always thought you carried? No reason I suppose. Just seem like the type to be courteous and cautious.
I encourage you to make that purchase. Learn the rules and morality of gun ownership. It can be therapeutic.
I take that as an extreme compliment!
No, I've never owned a gun. I've shot plenty, and I've gotten perfect scores on the DoD / NRA sharp-shooter tests... (prone, one knee, standing), but just haven't ever bought a gun. I do have a paintball gun!!!
I'm worried because I have a daughter who is extremely hyper active... like how I was. I wonder what the point of having a gun is if I'm required to keep it locked in a safe. I'd rather have it in my side table.
quote
Originally posted by dennis_6:
While ilI agree, it is a hassle. That hassle beats the hassle of attending the funeral of a loved a one, or being the guest of honor at one.
Sigh, you're right. As they say... better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.
I'm also doing a disservice by not getting my daughter comfortable with guns because... even though she's in Texas and her teachers are mostly Conservative, they're still teaching her that guns are bad and something to be feared... rather than looking at it as a tool... like a hammer or power drill.
While ilI agree, it is a hassle. That hassle beats the hassle of attending the funeral of a loved a one, or being the guest of honor at one.
Interesting
It's worth the hassle to go through the gun back ground check and training to avoid attending the funeral of a loved a one, or being the guest of honor at one but the same isn't true of getting drunk drivers off the road. I wonder which threat runs the highest risk? Statistically. Being the victim of a gun related crime or the victim of a drunk behind the wheel?
------------------ Rams
Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but … after a shooting, the problem is the gun.... Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.
My wife told me to grow up. I told her to get out of my fort!
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-03-2018).]
I'm worried because I have a daughter who is extremely hyper active... like how I was. I wonder what the point of having a gun is if I'm required to keep it locked in a safe. I'd rather have it in my side table.
...
I'm also doing a disservice by not getting my daughter comfortable with guns because... even though she's in Texas and her teachers are mostly Conservative, they're still teaching her that guns are bad and something to be feared... rather than looking at it as a tool... like a hammer or power drill.
Get them acquainted. Teach rather than discourage. I do not ram it down my 7 year old's throat, but he knows the do not touch rule.
I try very hard to keep things loaded when he is not around, and vice versa. There are certainly times when I have forgotten to unload, but I trust him. That does not mean that things are within easy reach, and I know that later in life I will need to lock up things for sake of mind. It is my responsibility as an owner to maintain a safe home. In all regards.
It's worth the hassle to go through the gun back ground check and training to avoid attending the funeral of a loved a one, or being the guest of honor at one but the same isn't true of getting drunk drivers off the road. I wonder which threat runs the highest risk? Statistically. Being the victim of a gun related crime or the victim of a drunk behind the wheel?
Submitting oneself for a ccw permit is voluntary and is waving only your rights. DUI checkpoints are forced and supporting them waives the rights of others.
The Constitution gives you the right to have arms. A state issued (for now) permit allows you to carry it concealed. Ownership is your right, CCP is a privilege. If you can legally own a gun, no one can stop you from having it. If a state says you cant have a CCP, thats their right to not grant you that privilege, provided they have a legal reason to do so.
In Kansas, you don't have to have a permit to conceal. I think that is great, but I do find it surprising how many 2nd Amend people think that is wrong. Citing that they think people should somehow show competence and go through classes to be able to have the privilege to CC. I think the real issue, is because many of them had to go through the trouble of getting a CCP in their State, that they think that should apply to everyone else.
They still issue CCP in Kansas, for out-of-state (reciprocity) purposes, but in state, you don't have to have one at all. Plus they legalize all forms of arms, like switchblades and etc. Which is great also.
Is it the wild west because of this? (The left would say). Nope! Nothing of the sort. The only people accidentally getting shot is by police shooting unarmed people. People purposeful shooting themselves or others are either suicide or hood rats shooting each other.
I, don't carry a gun with me, because I don't feel the need to nor do I feel that insecure, but I don't care if others do. Either open or conceal. I'm all about freedom.
Originally posted by Wichita: In Kansas, you don't have to have a permit to conceal. I think that is great, but I do find it surprising how many 2nd Amend people think that is wrong. Citing that they think people should somehow show competence and go through classes to be able to have the privilege to CC. I think the real issue, is because many of them had to go through the trouble of getting a CCP in their State, that they think that should apply to everyone else.
They still issue CCP in Kansas, for out-of-state (reciprocity) purposes, but in state, you don't have to have one at all. Plus they legalize all forms of arms, like switchblades and etc. Which is great also.
Is it the wild west because of this? (The left would say). Nope! Nothing of the sort. The only people accidentally getting shot is by police shooting unarmed people. People purposeful shooting themselves or others are either suicide or hood rats shooting each other.
I, don't carry a gun with me, because I don't feel the need to nor do I feel that insecure, but I don't care if others do. Either open or conceal. I'm all about freedom.
I have no problem with constitutional carry if a state chooses, nor do I have a problem with a required safety course. As long as it falls under the single id and reasonable cost, lifetime background check system. For some of us the course is insulting to our abilities, for others it will save their or someone elses life. I think it is a fair balance between my right and that of others.
I have no problem with constitutional carry if a state chooses, nor do I have a problem with a required safety course. As long as it falls under the single id and reasonable cost, lifetime background check system. For some of us the course is insulting to our abilities, for others it will save their or someone elses life. I think it is a fair balance between my right and that of others.
So a government issued permit to carry a gun, is ok. But a drivers license is a breach of your freedom?
A required safety course in order to handle a gun is ok, but not for driving a vehicle because it is a breach of constitutional rights?
So a government issued permit to carry a gun, is ok. But a drivers license is a breach of your freedom?
A required safety course in order to handle a gun is ok, but not for driving a vehicle because it is a breach of constitutional rights?
The issue was not that a drivers license was a breach of freedom, it was that driving is considered a privilege that can be revoked at whim, even for non driving related offences. I don't have a problem with ID. I don't have a problem with safety courses for driving or carrying, provided the fees are not a burden on the poor, and the duration is not a burden on the busy I do have a problem with repeat background checks, once is enough. Maintain a database of prohibited persons.
Submitting oneself for a ccw permit is voluntary and is waving only your rights. DUI checkpoints are forced and supporting them waives the rights of others.
OK, here I was thinking getting on that highway/road was a choice also.
Not so Dennis but I can see there is no way to convince you or even let any light into that dark room so I'll just let it go. Be safe and enjoy.
Rams
If you can show me the violation of the original intent of the constitution by having ID requirements while operating a motor vehicle or a gun in public, my room might have some "light". The founding fathers understood government to be a necessary evil, but that evil was lesser when compared to anarchy.
Which is the lesser of the two evils, producing id or being detained till your identity can be confirmed, because you match the description of a wanted person?
I understand the papers please, rejection. I just believe that is the greater of the two evils. Issue everyone a citizenship card that is linked to finger prints and be done with it. Full firearm and driving rights after legal age, and safety class or test in case of driving. Rights, not privileges. Criminal behaviour might limit one or the other rights if applicable. Drunks lose the right to drive, violent felons lose the right to arms.
No restrictions on firearms after that, no nfa. NFA was to keep the likes of AL Capone away from full autos and other "deadlier" weapons. Al Capone wouldn't be able to buy under this system so the NFA can be abolished.
Open carry, conceal carry all legal, in every state.
Not so Dennis but I can see there is no way to convince you or even let any light into that dark room so I'll just let it go. Be safe and enjoy.
Rams
Wait a minute here.
How can I not get on a public road? I'm sitting in Michigan right now. Let's say I want to walk home to Missouri (so I don't use the privilege of driving). I can't go through private property. My only choice is to walk along the sides of a public highway, in their easement... And by doing so I am submitting to their laws, giving up my freedoms because when I use the Highway system, I am waiving rights, even if I'm not in a vehicle. My choice is very limited as I see it.
How can I not get on a public road? I'm sitting in Michigan right now. Let's say I want to walk home to Missouri (so I don't use the privilege of driving). I can't go through private property. My only choice is to walk along the sides of a public highway, in their easement... And by doing so I am submitting to their laws, giving up my freedoms because when I use the Highway system, I am waiving rights, even if I'm not in a vehicle. My choice is very limited as I see it.
Contact your local Amish family, they're pretty helpful folks, they'll help you get home. Yeah, you'll most likely travel on a public road but, I doubt they'll check for your driver's license at a check point. As I said, it's all about choices.
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-04-2018).]
Originally posted by blackrams: Contact your local Amish family, they're pretty helpful folks, they'll help you get home. Yeah, you'll most likely travel on a public road but, I doubt they'll check for your driver's license at a check point. As I said, it's all about choices.
Right, but the argument isn't that they probably won't, but that they can whenever they want to and that you give up the right to not give the information by being there.
Right, but the argument isn't that they probably won't, but that they can whenever they want to and that you give up the right to not give the information by being there.
Brad
Sir, That's true regardless of where you are.
If, a LEO asks for your identification and you can't or won't provide it, it will not normally be a good day.
Rams
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-04-2018).]
