I'm starting to wonder if these storms might be challenging the 'climate change hoax'. Read a posting on facebook that said those 3% of climate scientists papers are not scientifically reproducible. We're having another record firestorm in the PNW. I can't work outside for two days and more to come. This may be the new warm or worse.

The climate is always changing and Florida hasn't been hit by a hurricane since October 24, 2005, (that's almost 12 YEARS), so if that's what "climate change" is I'm happy with it.

And they seem like such a nice couple.....

Forrest fires have been happening all the time. Just your liberal butt happens to be in its way. That is Climate Change for you. But like Al Gore, you are not doing anything about it, changing your lifestyle or moving. You are asking everyone else to do that and pay for it too.

Is this about the hurricanes, or just a gripe towards others?

You may not like being called names, or when others do it, but yet we must change to suit your needs, wants, and desires? Mmmmkay?

I just got back late last night from the far west side of the state. I am not denying the extreme fires and smoke we have in the air. Our car is absolutely covered in soot and ash. But, I am flat out denying the climate hoax as it currently is being presented.

The climate has been changing warmer and colder since day one. This is not in dispute and never has been. The debate is whether it's man made or natural throughout millennia. As it stands it cannot be proven either way. The absolute arrogance for some people to claim the "science is settled" just baffles me. Especially since the models they use to predict the future have failed and failed hard.

And where on earth do you get the idea that if it's warmer you get more wildfires? If this were true the Amazon would be a desert.

Our country has this policy to put out each and every wildfire as soon as possible. This leads to years and years of more fuel so that when the wildfires come they have plenty to burn. Before we came here the fires just ran their course. People got out of the way and nature took care of the rest. Now we have permanent houses and firefighters and water bombers and millions of acres of trees for wood and paper products.

The "warmers" have been predicting increased hurricane activity for over a decade. In reality, hurricane activity has been greatly reduced from what we had become accustomed to.
Now that there have been two (so far) hurricanes, in a very short period of time, I'm waiting for them to come out of the woodwork and start. "See? SEE?! We TOLD you so!!" Puhleease.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-06-2017).]

Seems like were having 'the storm of the century' every other week now. Theyre all kinda losing the bite the phrase had. Its even spreading to other things like the eclipse of the century, etc. I take them all with a grain of salt anymore. Im getting sort of burnt out if it isnt affecting me or someone I know. If my basement flooded, its a catastrophe for me...but hardly another person would give a crap. Not to seem mean, but these people like in Florida, Texas, and louisiana choose to live where they do knowing full well all the dangers. It becomes hard to feel sorry for someone who lives in a house 10' below sea level and right next to the ocean. Even moreso when they rebuild right back in the same place...(scratching my head). I know if I got flooded or burned out, im moving to a different location with my insurance money. I have friends who've tried to get me to move to Florida to get away from tornados in Ohio. Ya, move to where they have hurricanes that wipe out entire cities makes sense. Ill take the tornado risk over hurricane thank you. Your wiped out with either but 100 miles of damage is a lot better odds getting hit than 100 yards.

Ecosex

quote Originally posted by texasfiero: Ecosex

What the left lacks in wisdom, they more than make up for in entertainment value.

quote Originally posted by williegoat: And they seem like such a nice couple.....

Holy smokes, Harvey! Nothing like robbing the cradle.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I'm starting to wonder if these storms might be challenging the 'climate change hoax'. Read a posting on facebook that said those 3% of climate scientists papers are not scientifically reproducible. We're having another record firestorm in the PNW. I can't work outside for two days and more to come. This may be the new warm or worse.

I see what you're doing here; however, there are no real scientists that are claiming increased hurricanes are as a result of global warming. It has more to do with the randomness of the weather patterns, in conjunction with El Nino and La Nina weather systems.

https://www.climate.gov/new...B1a-hurricane-season

We are experiencing more "La Nina" which creates warmer temperatures in the gulf, and fewer temperatures on the west coast.

It is WELL UNDERSTOOD that this is a cyclical and "naturally occurring" weather system on Earth that has nothing to do with what you're talking about.


Just so we're clear... don't fall into the trap of "fake news" when the political pundits discuss this stuff to create more distrust and animosity.

A shame that this topic has turned partially socio-political. A disaster of untold proportions is about to unfold and lives will be lost and the material personal property damage and loss will be heartbreaking as well.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: A shame that this topic has turned partially socio-political. A disaster of untold proportions is about to unfold and lives will be lost and the material personal property damage and loss will be heartbreaking as well.

I don't blame Dratts... he's just seeing it on the news and is talking about what he sees being reported.

But this... politicizing a tragedy is basically par for the course in moving the goal posts for the left. It has to do with "the end justifies the means" and "at any cost, by any means" for furthering the agenda. There's no better time than in the middle of a disaster than to try to say... "I told you so..."

But all that aside... even if you do or do not believe in global warming / climate change, it's scientifically understood that none of this would have anything to do with that... it has to do with La Nina and El Nino... and "winning the lottery" for the changing wind conditions. There are many years in Florida since Wilma, that a multitude of insanely powerful hurricanes came through... but the northward wind system / cold front was able to push it north before it hit the shore...


I'm really sorry you had to experience all that you did MJ... I've never had to experience anything like that, to anywhere near that extent. In Wilma... we didn't have any flooding, just a slight roof leak, loss of trees, and things that didn't really matter (fences, trellis, etc...). I can only imagine... ... and I may end up imagining when Irma comes north and hits my home in Fort Lauderdale.

I'm just glad that you and your family made it out safe. I'm also really sorry for your neighbor...

quote Originally posted by maryjane: A shame that this topic has turned partially socio-political. A disaster of untold proportions is about to unfold and lives will be lost and the material personal property damage and loss will be heartbreaking as well.

The original post began that way. It has not turned.

Perhaps the thread was not marked Political?

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: The original post began that way. It has not turned. Perhaps the thread was not marked Political?

I think he means hurricane Harvey / Irma... the topic itself being discussed in a political light (not necessarily that this "thread" has changed).

Thread started as science, most certainly as controversial science but still science. It changed somewhere, to political.
But, I guess that's the norm.
I just don't want to see any of us lose sight of the possible/probable tragedy a force of nature this magnitude can and probably will bring to the US as it already has in the Caribbean..before it even gets here.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I'm starting to wonder if these storms might be challenging the 'climate change hoax'. Read a posting on facebook that said those 3% of climate scientists papers are not scientifically reproducible. ....

I am not trying to argue, but even the first sentence decided the conversation. The thread title has little to do with the subject the OP went with. I will just say that we are both correct in some fashion. I am not conceding, just yielding.

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 09-07-2017).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: A shame that this topic has turned partially socio-political. ... Thread started as science, most certainly as controversial science but still science. It changed somewhere, to political. But, I guess that's the norm.

Welcome to PFF TO/T. If a topic isn't inherently political, it soon will be. We'll see to that.

(Shakes head and walks away.)

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 09-07-2017).]

I am not coming down on one side or the other, as to whether global warming results in more numerous hurricanes or other cyclonic storms, or if not more numerous, then more powerful storms of this kind, or maybe even more numerous and more powerful. Or less numerous, but more powerful when they do occur.

There is one result of global warming that no one can argue against, and that is higher sea levels all around the world. And that results in more (or higher) storm surge, and more potential damage from storm surge.

Do y'all now feel like you are two cents worth better off than you were a moment ago?

I hope so.

Inflation. Infrastructure and building within a known hurricane zone. It is easy to take Randye's post and make just about any factual statement in disagreement. One thing was stated, then another used against, while true, does not coincide with what was clearly stated.

How high have the seas risen rinselberg? You just said that I can not argue against this, and I want to know why. I am asking why?

[This message has been edited by Tony Kania (edited 09-07-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Welcome to PFF TO/T. If a topic isn't inherently political, it soon will be. We'll see to that. (Shakes head and walks away.)

I really don't see how anyone could even possibly make the assumption that this post wasn't intended to be political.


It's like if I started an Anti-Abortion post, and was shocked when people thought I was being political because my reasoning was just that I didn't want babies to die.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Florida isn't the world ... nor is it even the entire U.S.

Nowhere in my post did I even remotely claim that.

My statement is factually valid on its face and I stand by my opinion:

The climate is always changing and Florida hasn't been hit by a hurricane since October 24, 2005, (that's almost 12 YEARS), so if that's what "climate change" is I'm happy with it.

Please don't attempt to suggest that I somehow don't care that other areas were hit because I didn't say that either.

[This message has been edited by randye (edited 09-07-2017).]

All I know is that you can't get a hotel room in Central Kentucky this weekend, the hotel parking lots are full of Florida vehicles.

What I will say is, Welcome to the Bluegrass. Please spend lots of money while you're here.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-07-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Florida isn't the world ... nor is it even the entire U.S. ... 9 of the 10 costliest Atlantic hurricanes in U.S. history have occurred since 2004. See Costliest U.S. Atlantic Hurricanes: #1 2005 Katrina (Cat 5) #2 2012 Sandy (Cat 3) #3 2008 Ike (Cat 4) #4 1992 Andrew (Cat 5) #5 2005 Wilma (Cat 5) #6 2004 Ivan (Cat 5) #7 2011 Irene (Cat 3) #8 2004 Charley (Cat 4) #9 2005 Rita (Cat 5) #10 2016 Matthew (Cat 5)

And as the population grows and costs go up this will always be the case. But you know that.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: All I know is that you can't get a hotel room in Central Kentucky this weekend, the hotel parking lots are full of Florida vehicles. What I will say is, Welcome to the Bluegrass. Please spend lots of money while you're here.

You guys need to check the track predictions.

Looks like she's headed your way.

As always, anyone needs shelter I have lots of room. We can sleep eight guests comfortably.

Ironically, it seems like coastal Virginia is a safe space at the present time.

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Florida isn't the world ... nor is it even the entire U.S. ... 9 of the 10 costliest Atlantic hurricanes in U.S. history have occurred since 2004. See Costliest U.S. Atlantic Hurricanes: #1 2005 Katrina (Cat 5) #2 2012 Sandy (Cat 3) #3 2008 Ike (Cat 4) #4 1992 Andrew (Cat 5) #5 2005 Wilma (Cat 5) #6 2004 Ivan (Cat 5) #7 2011 Irene (Cat 3) #8 2004 Charley (Cat 4) #9 2005 Rita (Cat 5) #10 2016 Matthew (Cat 5)

means nothing, as your post is about dollars COST
All these places have had as bad if not worse ones but there wasn't anything of value to level or flood, so I guess they don't count..
These storms have been around before mankind and will still be when we are all ,but a memory ..
Sadly a few have found a way to take the end of the ice age and profit from the last of the ice melting.. And people eat up the fear, If the earth never warmed we not be here, and you'd not be living this far from the equator .. but we would not want facts and other parts of science to get in the way of the almighty dollar fraud that is global cooling oh wait global warming oh wait, what can we call weather and not be lie'n and still push the fear, climate change ya ya ya that's the ticket
and yuppies and boomer ate up the fear ..

Well, since we're going down the political rabbit hole -

http://www.pnas.org/content/111/24/8782

Long story, short.

Hurricane names are sexist because people don't take female named storms as seriously as male named storms.

Next up will be something about how minority named hurricanes are taken more seriously than whitish named storms because of white racism.

Then will move on to hetero sounding names vs homo sounding names, 'cuz homophobia.

Aaaaaannnnnnndddddd to round thing up Christina names vs Muslim names, 'cuz Islamaphobia.

This is the world we live in.

I'm thinking about getting into Ayn Rand's time machine ( How else could she have been so accurate? ) and traveling back to kill the guy who invented Twitter.

But then some other guy would just pop up and invent something similar and I'd have to kill him.

And so on and so on until everyone is dead.

Except you guys.

But watch it.

[This message has been edited by RayOtton (edited 09-08-2017).]

" There is one result of global warming that no one can argue against, and that is higher sea levels all around the world. And that results in more (or higher) storm surge, and more potential damage from storm surge. "

I CAN...I havent seen anyplace in the world yet, in years, where the ocean water level has risen any measurable amount. The beach right behind my island house is exactly the way its been since the house was built 100 years ago. The only time it rises is with daily tide. The Florida beachfront hotels all still have the same beaches as they were when built...if not larger. Sea level rising is a crock of crap. Even all the lakes are DOWN except those in big rainstorms. We had to close one 20 mile long recreational lake for last few years to boats because they were hitting the bottom. You could literally walk across the mile wide lake. That is just now up enough this summer to let smaller boats back in...and thats because of an upgrade to the dam...not climate change.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-08-2017).]

I really don't understand all the skepticism for climate change.

Its real, its being caused my humans, and it is dangerous. For some reason there is a large faction in this country that claims its a hoax. First of all, the entire world of science disagrees with that. The evidence is overwhelming, and the scientific consensus is overwhelming. Easy, reliable source.

What really baffles me, is that to deny human caused climate change is to deny the broader scientific community. You have to truly be a conspiracy theorist, and believe that 90% of the scientific community is out on some crazy limb to push its 'liberal agenda'. Why? What is there to gain? Are these scientists secret stakeholders in wind turbine companies?

For those who don't think we can possibly be so arrogant to think we can change such a massive system, bacteria filled our atmosphere with so much oxygen that it literally caused a mass extinction because it suffocated itself . If bacteria can literally use up all the air on the planet, why can't humans impact it in a similar way?

[This message has been edited by Threedog (edited 09-08-2017).]

I am going to go gas up the jet, turn up both the heat and AC in my multi wing house, then tell you what to do. Oh, wait, I am not Al Gore.
Definition of literally

1
: in a literal sense or manner: such asa : in a way that uses the ordinary or primary meaning of a term or expression He took the remark literally. a word that can be used both literally and figurativelyb —used to emphasize the truth and accuracy of a statement or description The party was attended by literally hundreds of people.c : with exact equivalence : with the meaning of each individual word given exactly The term “Mardi Gras” literally means “Fat Tuesday” in French.d : in a completely accurate way a story that is basically true even if not literally true Click to show

2
: in effect : virtually —used in an exaggerated way to emphasize a statement or description that is not literally true or possible
will literally turn the world upside down to combat cruelty or injustice

quote Originally posted by Threedog: I really don't understand all the skepticism for climate change. Its real, its being caused my humans, and it is dangerous. For some reason there is a large faction in this country that claims its a hoax. First of all, the entire world of science disagrees with that. The evidence is overwhelming, and the scientific consensus is overwhelming. Easy, reliable source. What really baffles me, is that to deny human caused climate change is to deny the broader scientific community. You have to truly be a conspiracy theorist, and believe that 90% of the scientific community is out on some crazy limb to push its 'liberal agenda'. Why? What is there to gain? Are these scientists secret stakeholders in wind turbine companies? For those who don't think we can possibly be so arrogant to think we can change such a massive system, bacteria filled our atmosphere with so much oxygen that it literally caused a mass extinction because it suffocated itself . If bacteria can literally use up all the air on the planet, why can't humans impact it in a similar way?

Threedog... the hurricanes have NOTHING to do with Global Warming. It has to do with the natural cycle of El Nino and La Nina. Please do some research and stop spreading talking points from uneducated people.

quote Originally posted by RayOtton: You guys need to check the track predictions.

I did check the track predictions, I was advised to bet on the third horse in the fifth race.

That didn't pan out either....................

What I have found out is that the Dems have apparently had a change of heart in reference to immigration.
It seems that no one is in favor of Jose (who is following Irma) being allowed into the country..........................


------------------
Ron

Isn't it strange that after a bombing, everyone blames the bomber, his upbringing, his environment, his culture, his mental state but …
after a shooting, the problem is the gun....
Open your frigg'n minds, think about all the other tools that can be made into WMDs.

I sincerely hope that life is never discovered on another planet because, sure as hell Progressives and Socialists will want to send them money.

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 09-08-2017).]

quote Originally posted by Tony Kania: Inflation. Infrastructure and building within a known hurricane zone. It is easy to take Randye's post and make just about any factual statement in disagreement. One thing was stated, then another used against, while true, does not coincide with what was clearly stated. How high have the seas risen rinselberg? You just said that I can not argue against this, and I want to know why. I am asking why?

There has been a global mean sea level rise of 3 inches over the last 20 years.

Sea level is not the same as we move around the world's oceans. The seas actually have a topography, in the same way that land masses can have hills and valleys. Right off the California coast, there are areas where sea level has actually decreased over the last 20 years. But overall, when you look across the entire area of the globe that is covered by sea water, it's mostly rising sea levels.

You can see a visualization of this data by perusing just 2 minutes of YouTube video that was uploaded on August 27, 2015. The presenter is oceanographer Josh Willis from NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yuISz_X0Lk

The figure that I quoted (3 inches over the last 20 years) comes from a second YouTube video, just under 3 minutes long, that was uploaded on January 5, 2017. The presenter is Tom Wagner. Presumably a NASA scientist or spokesperson. This is the second video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUCaSBMTf3A

If "3 inches of sea level rise" doesn't impress you as any kind of big deal, you need to remember the difference between vertical rise and horizontal incursion; to wit:

quote ... it is the horizontal incursion of the rising sea that is most apparent to the eye.l On a gently sloping beach, a small rise of sea level will extend quite some ways inland, to define a new shoreline. Eight inches of sea level rise on a beach with a gentle gradient of one degree would move the shoreline almost 40 feet inland.

So, if my recollection of basic geometry is still accurate, a sea level rise of three inches would affect that same beach (one degree gradient) by moving the shoreline inland almost 15 feet.

That's not small potatoes.


Reference for horizontal incursion of sea level rise:

"A World Without Ice"
Henry Pollack, PhD.
copyrighted in 2009 and published in paperback in 2010 by the Penguin Group (seriously), USA.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 09-09-2017).]

Well, over here on the Eastern Shore of Virginia I haven't experienced any noticeable difference in water levels and I've lived here for 20 years.

My dock is on an inlet about 1/4 mile from the Chesapeake SeaBay ( Sorry, a leftover from the Dobey Wars ). My access is somewhat tidal in that about 2 hours either side of low tide I would need wheels on the boat to go out. Because of that I would be well aware of any appreciable rise in sea levels and to my disappointment that has just not happened.

In addition, this area is often sited by the alarmists because the largest US naval base in the world as well as 5 coastal cities comprising a million people are just over the other side of the sea bay ( Eventually, I'll get tired of this so shut up ). The flooding that they experience may make the area unusable at some point in the future if we don't take steps to prevent it.

The thing is, 2/3 of this measurable change is due to the land sinking, NOT the sea rising. And the the sinking land? Well, that's due to pulling more fresh water out of the ground for irrigation and drinking.

So, when those facts come to light it makes it pretty tough to swallow what the alarmists are trying to feed us.

You want people to believe you? Try whole truths, not half truths.

But then again, with leftist claims like "You can keep you doctor", "It was a video", "There is no IRS scandal" and a whole host of lies and obfuscations it make it pretty damn hard to take anything they say as the truth.

quote Originally posted by Threedog: I really don't understand all the skepticism for climate change. Its real, its being caused my humans, and it is dangerous. For some reason there is a large faction in this country that claims its a hoax. First of all, the entire world of science disagrees with that. The evidence is overwhelming, and the scientific consensus is overwhelming. Easy, reliable source. What really baffles me, is that to deny human caused climate change is to deny the broader scientific community. You have to truly be a conspiracy theorist, and believe that 90% of the scientific community is out on some crazy limb to push its 'liberal agenda'. Why? What is there to gain? Are these scientists secret stakeholders in wind turbine companies? For those who don't think we can possibly be so arrogant to think we can change such a massive system, bacteria filled our atmosphere with so much oxygen that it literally caused a mass extinction because it suffocated itself . If bacteria can literally use up all the air on the planet, why can't humans impact it in a similar way?

Well you have swallowed the globalist dogma hook, line, and sinker.

"But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy...One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy any more." Ottmar Edenhofer of the IPCC

This is a money grab by the globalists. I will not play. You cannot have my money. I will fight.

quote Originally posted by rinselberg: There has been a global mean sea level rise of 3 inches over the last 20 years. ... So, if my recollection of basic geometry is still accurate, a sea level rise of three inches would affect that same beach (one degree gradient) by moving the shoreline inland almost 15 feet. That's not small potatoes. ...

No, it has not risen 3". It has absolutely not. And no, I will not post my facts. We had a thread for that. Venice would not approve.

quote Originally posted by RayOtton: Well, over here on the Eastern Shore of Virginia I haven't experienced any noticeable difference in water levels and I've lived here for 20 years. My dock is on an inlet about 1/4 mile from the Chesapeake SeaBay ( Sorry, a leftover from the Dobey Wars ). My access is somewhat tidal in that about 2 hours either side of low tide I would need wheels on the boat to go out. Because of that I would be well aware of any appreciable rise in sea levels and to my disappointment that has just not happened. In addition, this area is often sited by the alarmists because the largest US naval base in the world as well as 5 coastal cities comprising a million people are just over the other side of the sea bay ( Eventually, I'll get tired of this so shut up ). The flooding that they experience may make the area unusable at some point in the future if we don't take steps to prevent it. SIZE=2]The thing is, 2/3 of this measurable change is due to the land sinking, NOT the sea rising. And the the sinking land? Well, that's due to pulling more fresh water out of the ground for irrigation and drinking.[/SIZE] So, when those facts come to light it makes it pretty tough to swallow what the alarmists are trying to feed us. You want people to believe you? Try whole truths, not half truths. But then again, with leftist claims like "You can keep you doctor", "It was a video", "There is no IRS scandal" and a whole host of lies and obfuscations it make it pretty damn hard to take anything they say as the truth.

The highfalutin terminology for "land sinking" is "subsidence".

Altimeter measurements of sea level from aircraft and orbital satellites are not affected by subsidence. They are measuring sea level from overhead by converting the time that elapses between the signal transmission and receiving the signal as an echo, reflected upwards by the surface of the sea. Very radar-like. That's how NASA does it.

[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 12-01-2017).]

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Threedog... the hurricanes have NOTHING to do with Global Warming. It has to do with the natural cycle of El Nino and La Nina. Please do some research and stop spreading talking points from uneducated people.

I didn't say that that global warming caused these huriccanes, but warmer surface water cycles(amplified by climate change) is cause the increase in strength of the storms.

You're right, the cycles are what causes the hurricanes, but the even warmer waters contribute the massive strength and size of the storms