And in what nation is the subject of this discussion a citizen? And which nationality or group of citizens is he talking to?
Libya? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? Yemen? Iraq? Iran?
No. Canada.
I'm Christian, and know many many Christians. I've yet to meet a single one (myself included) that follows every tenet of the bible, especially the Old Testament. If Christians followed "traditional teachings", half the people on this forum and in this country would have already been killed.
Again, that is between you (as an individual) and God. If I am wrong, I will have to answer to God for it. I don't think it matters in the least what Country the teachings are espoused, but as far as the teachings of the coran go, it's god is not forgiving of the teachings being twisted. 2+2=4 in any language and any Country. 2+2 still equals 4 in space, because it is an absolute, just like the teachings of a real God. No matter the language or Country, God's Word is absolute and unchanging. In context "Word" means the message. Just because the message is taught in a different Country, does not give those people the authority to alter the Word to fit their culture any more than mathematicians in different Countries changing 2+2=4 to anything else just to fit their culture. A deity that is defined by culture is not a God, it is an urban legend. As far as your last paragraph, we have to just agree to dissagree.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-25-2017).]
To borrow a terminology that is commonly used in psychopharmacology, I see Shaikh Musleh Khan shaping up as a Participant Muslims of the West agonist, more than a Participant Muslims of the West antagonist. I like that. I think it bodes well for Musleh Khan coming to the end of his earthly travails--not any time soon, Allah be willing--I don't think he has yet arrived at age 40--and then being remembered for living a life that was a net gain for Canada, and not any deficit or burden.
Shaikh Musleh Khan, as I would hope any reader has already discovered, is a Canadian-based Muslim who was recently named to serve the Toronto Police Department in the capacity of chaplain. His inaugural day as chaplain was October 28, 2016. Just days later, The Rebel's Faith Goldy published an investigative-style column, accompanied by a video that is also on Youtube, under the banner of "Musleh Khan must be removed from his new position as the Muslim Chaplain for the Toronto police." That column: http://www.therebel.media/fire_the_bigot
If "you" are already here, and have not reviewed this thread, starting from the first or "Original Post" (on page 1), I highly recommend it. It's become one of my most cherished Pennock's Off Topic discussions. Almost every post is a "winner". And I don't mean just my own posts. There is drama to be found here, as well as levity (or attempts at levity) and graphic design elements. Metaphors and figures of speech out the gazoo. This one's pretty much got it all.
May I "read into the record" (a rhetorical question) a short "bio" for Musleh Khan, from the Islamic Institute of Toronto's website? I think it may further this discussion in some small way. To wit:
quote
Shaikh Musleh Khan was born in Madinah, Saudi Arabia. He was raised and is currently residing in Toronto, Canada. At college he studied computer programming and then went to work as a Fraud analyst.
In 2002 Shaikh Musleh was accepted at the Islamic University of Madinah where he completed a diploma in Arabic followed by a BA in Islamic Law from the faculty of Da'wah and Usool al-deen. He memorised the Qur'an with an ijaza and has completed a complete study of Sahih al-Bukhari.
Shaikh Musleh undertook a study of various Islamic books including those on Fiqh, Hadith, Aqidah, Tafsir. Futhermore, he took classes with various prominent scholars in the course of his time in Madinah, including Sheikh Mukhtar Al-Shanqiiti, Sheikh Muhsin Al-Abaad, Sheikh Abd al-Razak, and Sheikh Muhammad Shafi among others.
Upon graduating in 2011 he has returned to Canada and has plans to pursue a Masters at York University, Toronto. He has been very active in the Toronto vicinity for more than 10 years, having conducted khutbahs, classes, lectures and conferences, as well as various Islamic Intensive programs in the United States. Shaikh Musleh enjoys long-distance running and basketball. He loves to read and write in addition to spending time preparing for classes in Toronto where he and his wife reside.
I yield the server.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 01-25-2017).]
I restated what I understood as "the" question. At the top of the same post (on page 2) where I offered my answer for it.
Did I at least understand this question? Are we on the same "page" about the wording of this question?
Ya, try again.. You are so in love with islam, why not move to middle east so you can enjoy it's full glory.. Without those pesky western laws and cultures to get in your way.?
I am not going to revisit or rehash what I consider my answer to your question. Not before you react to my answer in some intelligible way. Explain why it's a "dodge". Explain why it's False. Explain why it's total bulls**t, if that's how you see it.
On the other hand, if I tried to answer some other question than the question that you had in mind at that point--at the top of page 2--you do have the option of restating whatever the question was that you had in mind Depending on exactly what that question comprises, perhaps I can take a "shot" at it.
I could also offer to entertain you, using my webcam, by standing on my head, but I doubt that I am either that agile or that capable of maintaining my balance in that position.
I'm glad you checked in here--in any case.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 01-25-2017).]
.. it could be something of a chore to sort through all that, to zero in on some specific question, such as "Does Musleh Khan say it is OK for nine-year old girls to be married?"
.
Doesn't really matter what he thinks about it, we don't do that here in America, and they don't do that in Canada.
Originally posted by 2.5: Doesn't really matter what he thinks about it, we don't do that here in America, and they don't do that in Canada.
OK. I think you should go back to Page 2 and read (or review) the 4th post down from the top of the page, from "rinselberg".
And by the way, as far as America...
Child marriage chart reveals girls can wed at 12 in some parts of the US - as lawmakers battle to raise age to 16 Several states - including Massachusetts - allow children to get married 'in exceptional circumstances'
OK. I think you should go back to Page 2 and read (or review) the 4th post down from the top of the page, from "rinselberg".
And by the way, as far as America...
Child marriage chart reveals girls can wed at 12 in some parts of the US - as lawmakers battle to raise age to 16 Several states - including Massachusetts - allow children to get married 'in exceptional circumstances'
He says a lot yes. I'm thinking more along the lines of rules of where one is. Such as it relates to my other post in this thread. So he says we don't shove it down anyones throat.
"Yes, it’s in our Sharia [Islamic Law], but we don’t shove it down anyone’s throat. We don’t tell people: Hey, make sure, you know, this is also a candidate as well. We don’t do that."
That's kind of a broad statement. Its good that he doesn't but some do, and he stated what his rules say. For all of those he refers to as "we". I think it is what the rules "Sharia [Islamic Law]" say that concerns "non muslims". So the rules are there, its just not being practiced at this time. (In some places.)
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 01-26-2017).]
He says a lot yes. I'm thinking more along the lines of rules of where one is. Such as it relates to my other post in this thread. So he says we don't shove it down anyones throat.
"Yes, it’s in our Sharia [Islamic Law], but we don’t shove it down anyone’s throat. We don’t tell people: Hey, make sure, you know, this is also a candidate as well. We don’t do that."
That's kind of a broad statement. Its good that he doesn't but some do, and he stated what his rules say. For all of those he refers to as "we". I think it is what the rules "Sharia [Islamic Law]" say that concerns "non muslims". So the rules are there, its just not being practiced at this time. (In some places.)
So it's just like the exact same rules in the Christian/Jewish book. There are places, in both the US and Canada, where literal statements like this from the bible are indeed practiced.
So it's just like the exact same rules in the Christian/Jewish book. There are places, in both the US and Canada, where literal statements like this from the bible are indeed practiced.
I would like researched links and proof of these statements. Until then, you are being called a liar and a racist.
What happened to "misinformed" or "mistaken"..? Are they suddenly out of fashion?
NO, they didn't go "out of fashion". They were killed by leftists who screamed on a daily basis for years that President Bush "lied" about WMDs in Iraq. The same leftists, (including dopey), that are now continuing to make certain that courtesy is dead by their daily screaming that "Trump lied".
Ironic that there doesn't seem to room in their lexicon for "misinformed" or "mistaken" unless it applies to, or benefits, them.
Your attempt to "police" someone else's speech is also quite telling.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 01-26-2017).]
Originally posted by dobey: So it's just like the exact same rules in the Christian/Jewish book. There are places, in both the US and Canada, where literal statements like this from the bible are indeed practiced.
The teachings of Mohammed are followed by Islam. The teachings of Jesus are followed by Christians. There is a difference.
Originally posted by 2.5: The teachings of Mohammed are followed by Islam. The teachings of Jesus are followed by Christians. There is a difference.
In that Christians don't actually follow his teachings? And no, Christian beliefs are not limited to only the New Testament. Also, I included Judaism. The core of all three religions are based in the same writings best known in the US as the old testament.
The "age of womanhood" is non-specific but referred to by menstruation, in the basis of all three of these religions.
Originally posted by 2.5: I think it is what the rules "Sharia [Islamic Law]" say that concerns "non muslims". So the rules are there, its just not being practiced at this time. (In some places.)
I'm not just referring to an age of marriage but Sharia, the words of Muhammed, in its entirety.
I'm not just referring to an age of marriage but Sharia, the words of Muhammed, in its entirety.
But what has that got to do with what a single Muslim person preaches? The thread isn't about what you believe the laws of Islam are. It's about a police chaplain in Toronto who is Muslim. That chaplain whom someone else claims is an Islamist and is preaching that it's OK to marry 9 year olds in Toronto, for which all evidence presented says otherwise.
And the fact is that the ideal of marrying such young girls (or boys) is not limited to Islam. it is a core tenet of all three major religions. And it is a tenet which some people do still follow in all three of those religions, however sparsely so it may be.
Hell, the "Holy Mother," Mary, was only 14 when she gave birth to Joshua whom the Christians worship, and 12 when she was married off to Joseph.
Originally posted by dobey: But what has that got to do with what a single Muslim person preaches? The thread isn't about what you believe the laws of Islam are. It's about a police chaplain in Toronto who is Muslim. That chaplain whom someone else claims is an Islamist and is preaching that it's OK to marry 9 year olds in Toronto, for which all evidence presented says otherwise.
And the fact is that the ideal of marrying such young girls (or boys) is not limited to Islam. it is a core tenet of all three major religions. And it is a tenet which some people do still follow in all three of those religions, however sparsely so it may be.
Hell, the "Holy Mother," Mary, was only 14 when she gave birth to Joshua whom the Christians worship, and 12 when she was married off to Joseph.
You are truly don't have a clue. Just because a person calls themselves
Originally posted by dobey: But what has that got to do with what a single Muslim person preaches? The thread isn't about what you believe the laws of Islam are. It's about a police chaplain in Toronto who is Muslim. That chaplain whom someone else claims is an Islamist and is preaching that it's OK to marry 9 year olds in Toronto, for which all evidence presented says otherwise.
And the fact is that the ideal of marrying such young girls (or boys) is not limited to Islam. it is a core tenet of all three major religions. And it is a tenet which some people do still follow in all three of those religions, however sparsely so it may be.
Hell, the "Holy Mother," Mary, was only 14 when she gave birth to Joshua whom the Christians worship, and 12 when she was married off to Joseph.
You truly don't have a clue. Just because people strap a label on themselves, does not automatically mean that they are accepted by the group they claim to a part of or that they follow the teachings or requirements. This is not limited to religion or politics, but a basic fact about humanity. In fact this is one reason I even open threads on religion. To hear another opinion or teaching that strays away from the original authors context. I point out this fact in various threads. And yes there is a Old Testament and New Testament and NO, Biblically you CAN NOT follow them both to the "T" at the same time because Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament and ushered in the age of Grace. I understand some don't understand this, but a lack of understanding won't change facts. The coran is held at a higher level of value in islam than the Old Testament and the New Testament is denied out right. Islam has no age of Grace, they only follow the teachings of muhamid. his teachings are FAR different than those of Jesus.
Originally posted by dobey: But what has that got to do with what a single Muslim person preaches? The thread isn't about what you believe the laws of Islam are. .
I replied to Riselburg who I have seen say things in many threads that lead me to think he believes that it doesn't matter what is written by Muhammed, only what Muslim people are putting into practice today.
Originally posted by 2.5: I replied to Riselburg who I have seen say things in many threads that lead me to think he believes that it doesn't matter what is written by Muhammed, only what Muslim people are putting into practice today.
Well, that is fact. It matters not under the law of Canada what is written in the Qu'ran. What matters is what is written in the law, and how anyone in Canada behaves under that law.
If your argument is that it does matter what was written in the holy book, then you must also believe that same argument would apply to both Christians and Jews as well. Or any other religion, really. No? Or you really think all Muslims must follow the Qu'ran literally, per your interpretation of it (have you actually read it?), but Christians and Jews get a pass and don't have to follow their scripture literally?
I do not believe there is any verse in the Qur'an that exhorts Muslim men in perpetuity (or almost 1400 years after the Prophet's lifetime) to focus on becoming married to a female who is just showing the first signs of puberty. Or a female at the age of nine. Even to the current day, there are scholars who have differing opinions on the exact age when Aisha was given in marriage to Mohammed.
No one disputes that this was--in today's perspective, and even during the time of Mohammed--a "May-December" marriage. Think of Mohammed as an advanced middle-aged Hugh Hefner, and Aisha as a young girl who in today's world, would only be able to dream about becoming a Playboy Bunny, when she reached the minimum legal age to apply for that job.
I think that "our" Toronto PD Muslim chaplain, Musleh Khan, addressed this topic very strategically when he explained that the path from young girl to adult woman in the times of Aisha and Mohammed was much shorter in years than that same path is today, with Western society's emphasis on girls completing high school and (preferably) having some post high-school education before they should be considered as "women". It's a good way (I think) of reminding Muslims that to follow in the footsteps of Mohammed does not mean to try to model their own lives today as exact copies of Mohammed in every detail. It's Mohammed's character that must be emulated, but not every exact detail of his life.
Again, I commend any of the doubters (MidEngineManiac?) of the viability of Musleh Khan as a positive contributor to Canadian society to review his words on the permissible age for a female to become married. It's on Page 2, four posts down from the top, from "rinselberg".
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 01-27-2017).]
Originally posted by Rickady88GT: Just because people strap a label on themselves, does not automatically mean that they are accepted by the group they claim to a part of or that they follow the teachings or requirements. This is not limited to religion or politics, but a basic fact about humanity.
Tell that to other people on this forum who don't understand it. Because that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time, yet you keep arguing with me about what you think is and isn't Muslim.
Originally posted by dobey: Well, that is fact. It matters not under the law of Canada what is written in the Qu'ran. What matters is what is written in the law, and how anyone in Canada behaves under that law.
If your argument is that it does matter what was written in the holy book,
then you must also believe that same argument would apply to both Christians and Jews as well. Or any other religion, really. No? Or you really think all Muslims must follow the Qu'ran literally, per your interpretation of it (have you actually read it?), but Christians and Jews get a pass and don't have to follow their scripture literally?
On your first paragraph, that is my point as well. For example: Muslim doesn't get to do things outside of the countries law just because they want to.
The second line I separated... do you think it does matter to Muslims?
The rest of your post... has been replied to. Muhammed vs Jesus.
It's a good way (I think) of reminding Muslims that to follow in the footsteps of Mohammed does not mean to try to model their own lives today as exact copies of Mohammed in every detail. It's Mohammed's character that must be emulated, but not every exact detail of his life.
This is my focus, this problem. Muhammed's character, should be reflected in his life, and teaching.
Tell that to other people on this forum who don't understand it. Because that's exactly what I've been saying this whole time, yet you keep arguing with me about what you think is and isn't Muslim.
And yes, I know all about "christians."
No, dobey you dont. Your responses are the evidence. For example, you talk about violence taught in Christianity, but Jesus said turn the other cheek. You don't have a clue. muhamid teaches violence within islam 2 hundred years after Jesus, you say he doesn't. You don't have a clue.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-27-2017).]
It's a good way (I think) of reminding Muslims that to follow in the footsteps of Mohammed does not mean to try to model their own lives today as exact copies of Mohammed in every detail. It's Mohammed's character that must be emulated, but not every exact detail of his life.
You must have forgotten that muhamid killed people with his own hands for the crime of NOT being muslum? And he directed his followers to do the same.....among other things. Now about that character?
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-27-2017).]
No, dobey you dont. Your responses are the evidence. For example, you talk about violence taught in Christianity, but Jesus said turn the other cheek. You don't have a clue. muhamid teaches violence within islam 2 hundred years after Jesus, you say he doesn't. You don't have a clue.
And yet, here you are judging, when your precious Jesus said judge not, lest ye be judged too.
I know exactly what "christians" teach their children. I know exactly what the bible says. And I know what the Qu'ran says. The teachings of Islamists to murder, are not the teachings of Muhammad. You wish to condemn all Muslims for the actions of a few extremists, but continue to refuse to condemn your own faith for those who make those same actions in the name of your own god.
And instead of actually refuting anything I've said or linked to, with any evidence, you continue to tell me that I'm the one without a clue. Seek yourself in the mirror my friend, and reserve your judgement for yourself.
Originally posted by 2.5: The second line I separated... do you think it does matter to Muslims?
Yes, of course it does. It matters at least as much to them, as it does for those who sway from the teachings of Joshua, for Christians. Probably more so.
There is a real difference between Muslims and Islamists. Muhammad Ali cared. Muhammad the prophet cared.
And yet, here you are judging, when your precious Jesus said judge not, lest ye be judged too.
Again, you prove that you have no clue. 1) I did not judge, and I dont have a problem judging people. 2) Jesus taught us that we do not have the authority to be judge over another person's salvation. He also taught that we absolutely CAN judge others actions. In FACT we have an entire Justice System with Biblical symbols and references to do exactly that,,..Judge people's actions and even intentions.
I have been consistently transparent about how I come to whatever I choose to post here about Islam, and about Muslims. Page links to my sources, which are all online.
Rick..? Perhaps it would be helpful in coming to terms with your conclusions here, if you gave some explanation of how you go about finding the truth about Islam, and about the named Muslims (in this case, Musleh Khan of Canada) that are so frequently our topics of discussion.
You must have forgotten that muhamid killed people with his own hands for the crime of NOT being muslum? And he directed his followers to do the same.....among other things. Now about that character?
Again, you prove that you have no clue. 1) I did not judge, and I dont have a problem judging people. 2) Jesus taught us that we do not have the authority to be judge over another person's salvation. He also taught that we absolutely CAN judge others actions. In FACT we have an entire Justice System with Biblical symbols and references to do exactly that,,..Judge people's actions and even intentions.
You claiming that I have no clue about something clearly have no clue about yourself, is judging, yes. That is exactly what judging is.
Joshua didn't teach you crap. You were not alive 2000 years ago. Some person purporting to teach you on behalf of someone else, is not the same as that someone else teaching you. And regardless, it doesn't change the facts. Plenty of christians (most of them) in the world today, do not follow the life which their precious Joshua lived and says to also live. But still you will defend those on this forum who call for murder and genocide and rape, while condemning the extremists of another religion which you do not understand, as you judge over a billion people based on the actions of an extreme few.
You claiming that I have no clue about something clearly have no clue about yourself, is judging, yes. That is exactly what judging is.
Joshua didn't teach you crap. You were not alive 2000 years ago. Some person purporting to teach you on behalf of someone else, is not the same as that someone else teaching you. And regardless, it doesn't change the facts. Plenty of christians (most of them) in the world today, do not follow the life which their precious Joshua lived and says to also live. But still you will defend those on this forum who call for murder and genocide and rape, while condemning the extremists of another religion which you do not understand, as you judge over a billion people based on the actions of an extreme few.
dobey, you may think I am afraid to discuss this with you, but the truth is I don't fear discussing my faith. I just knew you want to change the subject. So I won't answer your statements outside the topic. So if you don't have anything to discuss about the subject I will just skip over your diversions.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-27-2017).]
