I'm having trouble with my record player. I cannot find a name on the thing anywhere--no label--no nothing. I have it completely apart 1. Something seems wrong with the motor--the rpm begins to slow down before the record finishes playing. It's direct drive--no belts. 2. There's a screw that appears to be the way to adjust tone arm weight, but the slot that screw interacts with seems to be worn out and tone arm may be putting too much weight on the record, making the turntable slow down? 3. It only has one speaker. I'd like to re-position it so the sound exits the front instead of the rear, but I don't see any way to make that happen physically.
And a question about how a record works to begin with... How, does the turntable deal with the velocity of the record of the outer part (when it first starts playing) being different than what it is at the end of the record--part closest to the center? It would seem, that an inch of record passes under the needle faster on the outside of the record faster than it does near the center of the record, just as the tips of a helicopter blade is passing thru the air faster than the other end of the blade nearest the rotor hub. Is the motor drive governed somehow?
I'll try to get some pictures later. Anyone know anything about these things?
The turntable is regulated at a constant rpm, 45, 33.3, 78 ..... There is no feedback to the motor as to the position of the tone arm. The tone arm should have an anti-skate adjustment to keep the stylus centered in the record groove, essentially counteracting centrifugal force. Typical tone arm contact pressure is .5 to 2 grams depending on design and quality of the equipment.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 12-18-2016).]
And a question about how a record works to begin with... How, does the turntable deal with the velocity of the record of the outer part (when it first starts playing) being different than what it is at the end of the record--part closest to the center? It would seem, that an inch of record passes under the needle faster on the outside of the record faster than it does near the center of the record, just as the tips of a helicopter blade is passing thru the air faster than the other end of the blade nearest the rotor hub. Is the motor drive governed somehow?
I'll try to get some pictures later. Anyone know anything about these things?
My lane machine has a large roll of disposable towel that reels out a 1/2 inch at a time to wipe the sprayed lane cleaner up off the lane. It has a programed digital counter that steps-down the unwind motor as the towel gets closer to it's core. Then you reset the counter everytime you install a fresh roll. If you don't reset the counter, eventually the towel will accumulate slack, and drag it's wet self across the approaches as you move from lane-to-lane.
Of course, your player probably don't have a digital counter, so the above has little to do with a solution for you, and more to do with me wondering the same thing you are...
How, does the turntable deal with the velocity of the record of the outer part (when it first starts playing) being different than what it is at the end of the record--part closest to the center? It would seem, that an inch of record passes under the needle faster on the outside of the record faster than it does near the center of the record ...
olejoedad describes a high-end turntable/tone arm, but I doubt that's what you have since you mention a built-in speaker. My guess is that yours may be an old portable.
To answer your perceptive question above, it doesn't. The turntable is designed as a constant-rpm device. The outer tracks of a record do indeed have a higher information capacity, which translates to better high-frequency performance and higher dynamic range, than the inside tracks. Dealing with this technical limitation is one of the ways recording engineers earned their money from the 1940s through the 1970s. On a high-end audio system you can sometimes hear the loss of bandwidth on the inner tracks (or at least I used to be able to), especially with classical/symphonic music, which has a wide range of instruments (and thus a wide frequency range) and often features a loud finale.
Concerning your turntable drag, most inexpensive systems used a rubber-tired idler wheel, spring-loaded between the motor shaft and the turntable rim. With age the rubber drive surface of the idler will get hard and glazed, leading to slippage. It's also possible that the bearings (usually simple bronze sleeves) for the motor shaft, the turntable shaft, and/or the idler shaft have lost their lubrication and are beginning to bind.
Concerning tone arm weight: Most inexpensive systems used a combination of arm balance and a down-spring to maintain a relatively constant stylus force. Higher-end tone arms usually used mass balance alone. While stylus force in high-end systems often was in the 0.5 to 3 gram range, it was usually much higher in inexpensive systems, especially portables.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 12-18-2016).]
It is a portable, tho it hasn't move from it's table in several years. Power is currently out here, and I have stuff to do because of it so pics and more infowwill have to wait.
I guarantee my tone arm weight is a lot more than 3 grams.
But back to the motor assembly. Mine seems to have something on it, That I would call a governor.
When part A is rotated by the motor, the 3 part Bs move outward off center line on little springy bands (as indicated by the arrow--those 3 parts are spinning too--one is hidden from view). When they move outward, part C moves in the direction of the arrow. I can't guess what else besides a governor this part could be, but I really don't see how it could affect anything at all.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-18-2016).]
Yes, but they seem to slow it down too much. Near the end of the record, it sounds like waaaah laaa, .....saa, dooo waaa daaaayyy.. then I pick up the tone arm and the record starts spinning fast again, so I set the arm and needle back down and it plays normal again......... for a few seconds.
I think maybe I need to clean it all up good with some solvent (it has some almost dried up grease on the governor) and then relube it with something, ........unless the tone arm weight adjustment is really the problem.
clean out the old grease and re-lube.. the motor might be getting tired.. what is the reading at it.. when playing and when it slows and when you lift the arm.. could be just a bad connection, limiting the "juice "to the motor..
The arm even when over weighted, like when some put a penny on the head to keep the needle from skipping.. should not slow the record platter.. and are you sure it's the platter that is slowing and not the record slipping on the platter..
The whole turntable (platter) stops turning--a shaft sticks thru the top and you can see it stop rotating. There's nothing to 'measure' on the motor.
The tone arm: See the slot near the end of the tone arm part on the left? There is a threaded hole in the part on the right that accepts a shoulder screw, holding the 2 parts together, while allowing the part on the left to pivot. Turned over, that same slot is worn completely thru on the other side, leaving no metal for the screw to act upon, and I believe this puts the full weight of the arm on the record. The arm is pewter, and quite heavy.
Sitting on top of the motor assy, is the shouldered screw that holds the 2 parts of the arm together.
It worked so well for so long, I like to have it back in good condition.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-19-2016).]
Suspicions confirmed. I think I'm finally beginning to understand the situation. I should have asked earlier.
As soon as the weather cools down, I'll spray the motor assy down good with a mild solvent based degreaser and apply some light lithium grease to all the moving parts. The old grease is probably 70+ years old. I've had the unit over 40 years, and usually only play it this time of year. I have been advised elsewhere, NOT "to open up the can looking thing that cages the spring unless you are real familiar with those things, and know how to get it all caged back up correctly" so I will follow that advice.
I suppose, I will try to solder in the missing bottom to that slot, tho jb weld would probably work just as well.
Then, will make a new box for the unit from some nice pine I have. The old 'suitcase' is showing it's age and is covered in a checkered cloth that is stained and peeling off. Still might try to turn the horn around so the sound exits the front, but that presents other problems, most notably, that the reproducer will be on the wrong side.
I have not been able to nail down the exact make and model, but best bet so far is some variation of a Columbia Grafonola--tho it could be a hodge podge mixture of different parts.
The whole turntable (platter) stops turning--a shaft sticks thru the top and you can see it stop rotating. There's nothing to 'measure' on the motor.
The tone arm: See the slot near the end of the tone arm part on the left? There is a threaded hole in the part on the right that accepts a shoulder screw, holding the 2 parts together, while allowing the part on the left to pivot. Turned over, that same slot is worn completely thru on the other side, leaving no metal for the screw to act upon, and I believe this puts the full weight of the arm on the record. The arm is pewter, and quite heavy.
Sitting on top of the motor assy, is the shouldered screw that holds the 2 parts of the arm together.
It worked so well for so long, I like to have it back in good condition.
Nothing to measure on the motor, is this a different type of electric motor that you can't measure with a multi meter, if so. TELL US MORe Mr popeel
It's difficult to tell if anything is binding or not--the usual place one binds is in a bearing at the end of a pinion shaft. I can't tell much about it while still coated in dark thick grease, about the consistency of cosmolene. The single design speed for this one is 80 rpm, + or - ten index marks ...changed by a sliding lever. It won't do 45 rpm--certainly not 33 1/3 reliably--and it never would.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-20-2016).]
It's difficult to tell if anything is binding or not--the usual place one binds is in a bearing at the end of a pinion shaft. I can't tell much about it while still coated in dark thick grease, about the consistency of cosmolene.
Is this grease the original or have you re greased it?? grease doesn't last forever.. and what is it like when hot?? after spinning a record for 20 minutes.. is it watery,, limiting lube action or turn into thick gum
I can't say about whether the grease is original or not, tho I suspect it is. I've only had this one for a few decades. Never been inside it until a week ago. I can see where a little gob of grease has dripped down on the inside of the case, so I assume, at some point, it was of a viscosity light enough to allow it to flow, but now, it is of the consistency of a very thick wheel bearing grease--you can roll it into a little ball between your fingers. It will have to wait until after the holidays--I have visitors coming and won't have time to mess with it.
Many people think these things are rare, and immediately think "Victrola" but there were many thousands and thousands of crank phonographs made by dozens or even scores of companies in the USA--many more manufacturers in other countries. They can be found on eBay fairly cheap, and there are folks who will re-condition the reproducers and motor assemblies for a fee. Motor cleanup, spring rewound, and new lube runs from a couple to several hundred dollars--more than this unit is probably worth, tho I have never been able to find one exactly like this one anywhere on the internet. Once I remove the motor assy from it's board, there may be a name on the under side, but that alone doesn't mean much. Both motors and tone arm/reproducers are pretty much interchangeable as long as the arm pivots and rotates in the correct direction(s). When I was young, we did have a tall Victrola credenza model that we played hundreds of times. It's still in the family, was reconditioned in the late 90s and works flawlessly today.
The only text I've found anywhere on this one is on the underside of the tone arm. It says "Made in USA" and "E. Toman #4" which I originally thought was just the casting company that made the tone arm but have found they also made/sold reproducers and needles.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-20-2016).]
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Makes my '83 Sony PS-X600 look state of the art.
