If you want to learn what really killed GM read his book, while the worst written book ever written, he has more flash backs and forwards than The Doc and Marty McFly put together. It does have a insiders view of what really killed GM. And you know what it was not the union, who would have thought a executive to blow the whistle on fellow executives.
So it's a good read if you can follow all the flashbacks and flash-forwards. It tells about the top floor telling the designers what to do and even when told it wouldn't work by the designers and engineers they had them do it. Things I and many others already know but maybe a few here would learn that what they thought killed GM, the union, was not really the reason they went under. The reason they went under was executives who didn't care about anything but what they could get out of it, not how to make the company to make money. Just their new car, that the company paid for, or their new car that they had the company build just for them.
union workers don't design the cars, they don't source the materials, they don't determine how many to build... etc.... union workers just assemble what they are given. Some did a poor job at their job, no doubt, but for the most part, those days (and workers) are gone.
union workers don't design the cars, they don't source the materials, they don't determine how many to build... etc.... union workers just assemble what they are given. Some did a poor job at their job, no doubt, but for the most part, those days (and workers) are gone.
Not the $28.00 p/hr to put a bolt in a hole.
At the Corvette plant they have 2 of those $28.00 p/hr people putting on a tire & wheel assembly on a car. $56.00 p/hr to put wheels on a car.
I'd do it for $15.00 p/hr and be lovin' life doin' it!
Let me ask this... who was responsible for the Concordia crash? The guy running the engine.... the guy serving drinks... or the Captain? Responsibility starts at the top of any organization.
Let me ask this... who was responsible for the Concordia crash? The guy running the engine.... the guy serving drinks... or the Captain? Responsibility starts at the top of any organization.
THIS is exactly why I am leaving this forum in the very near future. From all my postings, you garnered this?
Perhaps I should have placed a smiley faced icon, but I did not.
If I knew who is responsible for the "Concordia crash", do you think I would be sipping coffee and reading this BS?
So, what is the next deflective question that you have for this thread?
union workers don't design the cars, they don't source the materials, they don't determine how many to build... etc.... union workers just assemble what they are given. Some did a poor job at their job, no doubt, but for the most part, those days (and workers) are gone.
You sure non - assembly line workers arent union too? Management, HR, Supply, Engineeers?
THIS is exactly why I am leaving this forum in the very near future. From all my postings, you garnered this?
Perhaps I should have placed a smiley faced icon, but I did not.
If I knew who is responsible for the "Concordia crash", do you think I would be sipping coffee and reading this BS?
So, what is the next deflective question that you have for this thread?
Tony, how about a better explanation of your comic and comment.... Maybe I mis-understand your meaning. It would be helpful if you were clear, as I can't read your thoughts
I see engineer and manager positions on UAW job listing sites, thats why I ask.
Not sure... from what I know (lots of relatives who work/ed for GM) and have read, engineers and management are white collar jobs, non-union. Now, there may be exceptions.
Not sure... from what I know (lots of relatives who work/ed for GM) and have read, engineers and management are white collar jobs, non-union. Now, there may be exceptions.
That shows you just how much you know about GM and Unions, read the book. It will change your mind. Upper management were the ones who destroyed GM not the middle management or the worker below those.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-01-2016).]
That shows you just how much you know about GM and Unions, read the book. It will change your mind. Upper management were the ones who destroyed GM not the middle management or the worker below those.
Steve
Ah... Steve, I said that. You may want to direct your comment to someone else.
Bean counters, designers and engineers all have to work together to come up with something the line workers can build and the salespeople can sell. The problem with a lot of management is they don't understand how to get that balance. Concentrate only on the bean counters and you get boring, poorly made cars. Let the designers run wild and stunningly awesome cars that are poor quality and a nightmare to build or repair, and unaffordable. Let the engineers have total control and you have function with no soul that may or may not be affordable. Management needs to be pulled from all of the disciplines.
You read the book, you worked at GM. How many engineers (white collar workers) are under UAW contract?
First of all there are many levels of engineers, now aren't there? Managers of those engineers are mangemenrn but just a guy with a degree drawing pictures type of engineer is or I should say can be an engineer, now it you are a plant amanger or department head or even just a foreman you are management.
But then I can't tell you anything about GM because you know it all, second hand. Want to play telephone as well.
I was there, were you?
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-01-2016).]
"At December 31, 2014 we employed 216,000 employees of whom 136,000 ( 63% ) were hourly employees and 80,000 ( 37% ) were salaried employees. At December 31, 2014 , 51,000 ( 56% ) of our U.S. employees were represented by unions, a majority of which were represented by the International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agriculture Implement Workers of America (UAW). The following table summarizes worldwide employment (in thousands)."
"At December 31, 2014 we employed 216,000 employees of whom 136,000 ( 63% ) were hourly employees and 80,000 ( 37% ) were salaried employees. At December 31, 2014 , 51,000 ( 56% ) of our U.S. employees were represented by unions, a majority of which were represented by the International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agriculture Implement Workers of America (UAW). The following table summarizes worldwide employment (in thousands)."
So funny even NASA has UAW members, sorry but you don't have a clue. Read the book, learn something that is true, not hand me down by some friend or relative. Read the emblem,
First of all their are many levels of engineers, now aren't there? Managers of those engineers are mangemenrn but just a guy with a degree drawing pictures type of engineer is or I should say can be an engineer, now it you are a plant amanger or department head or even just a foreman you are management.
But then I can't tell you anything about GM because you know it all, second hand. Want to play telephone as well.
I was there, were you?
Steve
So hostile, aren't you? Ask a simple question and you get your knickers in a bunch. LOL!
I asked you to provide information, you get snippy. I defend your statement, you are still snippy. LOL!
BTW, the GM you worked for is NOT the same as the current GM, if you want to get the facts straight. You are a retiree, just like my father, and a few other relatives of mine. You are not an employee, nor are you under the same benefits as an employee (currently). And frankly, back in the 70s and early 80s, there were a few line workers who didn't give a crap and just showed up... drunk, or high... or even sat in the bathroom all day. My father had to sort through another guy's crappy parts and measure each one because that guy didn't care. There were guys sleeping, while skilled trades would shut down a machine for a day, as a favor to his buddy. That is the GM of old..... YOUR GM... your union. Today's GM is different. Even with that, the problem starts at the top. Management makes the decisions and directs the works (even union workers). Geez... last time I agree with you.
So funny even NASA has UAW members, sorry but you don't have a clue. Read the book, learn something that is true, not hand me down by some friend or relative. Read the emblem,
WTH Steve? I provided data related to GM... that is all. You know... data... facts.... not opinion. I know that UAW covers non-auto workers... who doesn't know that? Geez... ok, enough.
Read the book hell its even available on kindle for those who like a book that isn't really a book. Your hatred of the union is noted as dad got screwed in his retirement if my memory serves me right.
Hey I got screwed in my retirement, if your dad still gets his retirement why don't you ask him about the last page in the recent letter he got from his retirement fund. i'l give you a heads up, GM may be headed for another bankruptcy because nothing has changed at the top, they are still all out for that golden parachute. They are constantly changing contracts that the retirees worked under to get that but not the top ,management, they still get their golden parachutes for the rest of their lives. But be anyone lower than that and lets just change it so they get less. I did my time at GM under a contract why are they allowed to keep changing mine and not the top floors?
"I made it through this book - barely. While the author respects design, the writing is terrible and he's a raving lunatic. His position on many topics is so biased, it undermines the validity of nearly everything else. I learned a lot about GM... maybe. Most of what I learned probably wasn't true."
"The book offers many interesting insights about automobile design and marketing strategy within the car industry, but the author's neo-conservative political agenda was far too intrusive. His belief that global warming is a left-wing media hoax, and that Fox News is somehow notable for its courageous stand against the obvious is flat-out ridiculous. Although I suppose it is not surprising that a leading CEO of the automotive industry would maintain that car emissions and global warming are not linked, just as cigarette manufacturers were convinced that smoking did not cause cancer and it all boils down to a matter of 'personal choice'. I'm sure that England's Prince Charles could probably cook up a dandy defense of 'The Divine Right of Kings' as well. I do agree with Mr. Lutz's overall take on the American car industry in that he feels that, "The operation was a success, but the patient died". I accept and understand his observation that too much 'over-thinking' goes on in the industry, and I agree that it's probably because something is dreadfully wrong with the business management curriculum at the university level. But, I think that his opinion that this was caused by a 'left-wing' bias in American higher education is ridiculously absurd. I suppose the author is trying to come across as 'a no-nonsense kinda guy', but his neocon views soured me to his more valid positions. " LOL
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 02-01-2016).]
Originally posted by 84fiero123: Your hatred of the union is noted as dad got screwed in his retirement if my memory serves me right.
Steve
Your memory fails you.... I have said that unions have a place and have done good things for this country.
My dad didn't get screwed...any more than anyone else in the union (retirees)... but you want to know who screwed him... his fellow union workers who are employed, as they vote on the contract that retirees get. Hmmm.... a union is as only strong as the members. Just because I criticize the union, doesn't mean I am anti-union. This is what you can't see, or maybe you don't want to see. Anyway... I shouldn't have even responded, but you are spreading lies about what I believe.
What was that, one of the 66 ratings that were 2 or less. Sure he gives opinions about things unrelated to the book or the auto industry in particular, sure the book is hard to read, I think I said that in my first post, it reads like something I write right here on the forum, doesn't it. The guy is in his 80s, but the editor should have fixed that not him. Maybe he has STML like me.
I take ratings of everything with a grain of salt the size of my suburban. Take the highest and lowest and throw them away. What's in the middle usually half right, so in using that I would say the better ratings are the winner here, 60 people out of something like 450 ain't a no sale for me.
It gives all those people who say it was both union and managements fault for GMs demise something to think about, real facts about what happened at GM before and after he got there. He has been in all the big three and seen what happens when people don't talk to each other, do things only to increase their wealth not work to making the company better, not try to screw the workers out of their retirement or contract benefits.
To many chiefs and not enough Indians.
To be honest I didn't read the book, Melanie did, I put it down after the first page, couldn't remember what I just read.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-01-2016).]
Thunderstruck, do you really think that an employee on an assembly line was only assigned to put one bolt on a car?
Of course not.
Some, like those at the Corvette plant, check the sports scores on ESPN's website even though there is a public plant tour watching them "earn" their $28.00 p/hr.
I can just imagine what goes on durring the Sunday or Holiday shifts when they're getting $56.00 p/hr.
Really? I'm not doubting you but I'm surprised there are UAW government employees. Are you sure they're NASA employees and not NASA contractors like Lockheed, Boeing, etc.? Most of the work done by NASA is actually done by private companies and it makes perfect sense many of them would be union. As part of NASA's charter, the government employees (actual NASA employees) are in an oversight role and private contractors perform the work. Rockwell owned the design of the Space Shuttle. Grumman did the Lunar Lander. Morton-Thiokol did the Space Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters, etc. When most people talk about NASA employees, about 10-20% are NASA government employees and the rest of private contractors.
Some, like those at the Corvette plant, check the sports scores on ESPN's website even though there is a public plant tour watching them "earn" their $28.00 p/hr.
I can just imagine what goes on durring the Sunday or Holiday shifts when they're getting $56.00 p/hr.
You really are a troll aren't you ? I was utility for over 5 years and never put just a bolt on a car, or even just 2 tires and lug nuts, by the way that's 10 nuts and 2 tires and reloading the guns.
So your only experience is going threw on a tour, give me a brake, you really haven't got a clue about how building a car is done. Sure one car might not take that option and it can give one person a chance to do something but then the next car is loaded and the worker has a lot more work, then there are the Subassembly people who do off line jobs because its an easier job and can give them a little extra time to get ready for the next job. But then you know it all right because you walked threw on a tour.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-01-2016).]
Originally posted by Formula88: Really? I'm not doubting you but I'm surprised there are UAW government employees. Are you sure they're NASA employees and not NASA contractors like Lockheed, Boeing, etc.? Most of the work done by NASA is actually done by private companies and it makes perfect sense many of them would be union. As part of NASA's charter, the government employees (actual NASA employees) are in an oversight role and private contractors perform the work. Rockwell owned the design of the Space Shuttle. Grumman did the Lunar Lander. Morton-Thiokol did the Space Shuttle Solid Rocket Boosters, etc. When most people talk about NASA employees, about 10-20% are NASA government employees and the rest of private contractors.
You really are a troll aren't you ? I was utility for over 5 years and never put just a bolt on a car, or even just 2 tires and lug nuts, by the way that's 10 nuts and 2 tires and reloading the guns.
Steve
Steve
Yeah right, I made it all up.
That's what "trolls" do.
I race at the NHRA Reunions, I've been to Bowling Green many times, I've been to the plant several times, I've seen with my own 2 "troll" eyes.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 02-01-2016).]
Hey didn't you already get voted off the island once? Are you looking for a second time? No 2 cars are exactly alike, not 2 cars have exactly the same options, no 2 jobs on those cars are alike, that's how dealers get away with the you can't beat my prices, because there are never 2 exactly alike.
What someone on the line might put on this car, lets say for the sake of argument that it was a stripped base model Chevy, then then next has all the bells and whistles. The first car the guy may put on the doorpad, and window cranks, then the next time the same person doing the same job will not just put the doorpad on they will put the electric windows and door locks switches and maybe plug the lights in that are on the door pad and even more depending on the job and just what else they may do. even the person right opposite them althought they may have the same job basicly they have something else they have to do.
Why don't you the next time you got there try doing the line workers job for an hour? I got 10 bucks to your one that you can't keep up for ten min.
Steve
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 02-01-2016).]
Was this posted earlier in the thread? I must have missed it. I do apologize. I must not be able to read it properly. Can someone show me where NASA is listed? I do see some companies that contract for NASA, such as the United Launch Alliance and Goodrich Aerospace. As I said above, it's well known NASA has contractors that are union.
quote
Contracts - Aerospace Employer/Location Union Employees Date Dassault Falcon Jet New Castle, DE UAW Local 1542 180 December 30th, 2009 GE Aviation Kentwood, MI UAW Local 330 120 October 1st, 2009 Monogram Aerospace Fasteners Los Angeles, CA UAW Local 509 190 May 26th, 2009 Sermatech Detroit, MI UAW Local 644 28 May 21st, 2009 Bell Helicopter Textron Inc Fort Worth, TX UAW Local 317 6344 April 22nd, 2009 Kirkhill-TA Valencia, CA UAW Local 179 140 January 28th, 2009 Kirkhill-TA Valencia, CA UAW Local 179 140 January 28th, 2009 ITT Industries-Electronics Systems Radar Systems-Gifillan Van Nuys, CA UAW Local 509 29 December 23rd, 2008 Lycoming Engines-A Textron Company Williamsport, PA UAW Local 787 362 April 18th, 2008 United Launch Alliance-Harlingen Operations Harlingen, TX UAW Local 2346 95 March 19th, 2008 Goodrich Areospace Landing Gear Division of the Goodrich Co. Cleveland, OH UAW Local 2333 280 March 14th, 2008 Rolls-Royce Corporation Indianapolis, IN UAW Local 933 1868 December 20th, 2007 Parker Abex Kalamazoo, MI UAW Local 1666 240 July 26th, 2007 L-3 Communications Sylmar, CA UAW Local 179 85 May 31st, 2007 GE Evendale, OH UAW Local 647 85 April 27th, 2007 GE Evendale, OH UAW Local 647 930 April 27th, 2007 GE Evendale, OH UAW Local 647 85 April 27th, 2007 L-3 Communications Budd Lake, NJ UAW Local 153 59 March 26th, 2007 Honeywell Inc. Plymouth, MI UAW Local 1508 64 March 5th, 2007 Honeywell Inc. Plymouth, MI UAW Local 153 102 March 5th, 2007 Honeywell Inc. Plymouth, MI UAW Local 9 300 March 5th, 2007 Sierracin/Sylmar Corp. A PPG Aerospace business Sylmar, CA UAW Local 179 450 February 16th, 2007 L-3 Communications Budd Lake, NJ UAW Local 153 66 January 11th, 2007 Federal Screw Works Romulus, MI UAW Local 174 0 December 14th, 2006 Lockheed Martin M&FC Dallas, TX UAW Local 848 240 August 18th, 2006 Bell Helicopter Textron Inc Hurst, TX UAW Local 218 2401 May 11th, 2006 Bell Helicopter Textron Inc Hurst, TX UAW Local 317 374 May 11th, 2006 Monogram Aerospace Fasteners Los Angeles, CA UAW Local 509 155 April 28th, 2006
I actually read the book. Bob doesn't extol the virtues of the UAW, and anyone with half a brain knows it wasn't just the executives that led GM straight into the shitter. The book is an interesting insight into the way upper management thought and worked, but like all managers at that level, they didn't really have a great understanding of the day-to-day activities of what actually went on with the people actually working. Hard to do when you're stuck in meetings all day, and your hire under-managers to go do that for you, and report back a cliff notes version of what's going on.
Want to see UAW workers in action for yourself? Go take a tour of the Rouge Ford truck plant, and make your own opinion. (It's actually pretty cool, anyway).
'What killed GM' could fill a book by itself, and it isn't as easy as a single or few things you can summarize with group names. However, the stupidity of the 14th floor execs was a BIG part of it.
[This message has been edited by RWDPLZ (edited 02-02-2016).]
'What killed GM' could fill a book by itself, and it isn't as easy as a single or few things you can summarize with group names. However, the stupidity of the 14th floor execs was a BIG part of it.
'What killed GM' could fill a book by itself, and it isn't as easy as a single or few things you can summarize with group names. However, the stupidity of the 14th floor execs was a BIG part of it.
I agree with that, but the unions were not the biggest reason for GMs demise, were they partly at fault sure, but just partly to blame. How about the times GM offered others who's plant closed to take a job at other plants GM was going to close and knew they were going to close in a year or 2, they did that and destroyed family's, not just the workers. The last time The UAW had a nationwide strike was 1970, now they just do a couple of plants at a time. Hell they hardly strike at all anymore. And don't forget this one. And Henry Ford was not the only one that checked on his peoples private lives ether.
Then they sent Mitchel to Ferrari to bring back a factory fresh engine to put into Pegasus. Not only did they spend money on that for one CEOs private toy that he only drove he wanted to take it with him when he left. Luckily they didn't allow that.
Corporate waste and BS was what killed GM. As soon as we signed a contract GM started to brake it, They spent millions on a new paint shop at our plant in the late 80s only to shut it down permanently a couple of years later. Or how about the time they had new ovens installed in our plant that the engineers sealed with silicone, WTF idiot thought that was a good idea?
Think his book was an eye opener, I have seen things that would amaze many here as to how corrupt GMs top floor was. How about Roger Smith having to be surrounded by body guards any time he visited a plant, because he was in my opinion the worst CEO GM had. The list goes on but many even here think that auto workers just sit around all day and collect checks, You try doing something to every car going by you in 60 seconds or less. And no auto workers ever has put just one screw in a car or even just 2 tires and 10 lug nuts, there is also more work to that or any line job that someone on a tour would never know about, things that they don't see, even in today automated plants things workers have to do before hand. Like I said before if you haven't worked on an assembly line and especially a automotive assembly line you really don't know all the work that goes on when you just walk threw.
We lost more summer help, kids in college who couldn't hack it, some left after the first shift they did, we have become a society of lazy good for nothing but what that degree they got in college with absolutely no experience in doing. Then those just out of college who will not listen to anyone, because they have that degree. If they didn't do that, just like the guys at the top did, don't listen to anyone, especially the workers on the floor. That's exactly who you should be listening to and one of GMs biggest mistakes.
Steve, ruffling his own feathers for a very long time now.
I for one am glad that the old way is gone. Even up to the early 2000's, line workers were often morons. Not all, but my stories are well documented here. We should feel lucky that bolts were even put on vehicles. It was appalling to say the least.
Build sheets. Every vehicle came down the line with a build sheet. The only thing that you had to read was this build sheet. So, the issue of different options on a vehicle should not be an issue. Seriously, it says put the round peg in the round hole. Now a days we have bar codes that a computer reads. It has to tell the overpaid line worker what to do for every vehicle. Every single one. Kind of a no brainer there.
I keep hearing about the incompetent engineers. Funny, but an engineer working for a major manufacturing entity works much longer hours than the 40 hour/week that a lineman struggles through. It is not all roses.
I cannot comment about the rarefied air that is taken in by the golden parachute royalty.
From all my postings, you garnered this? 
While pro football players make millions.
Sure one car might not take that option and it can give one person a chance to do something but then the next car is loaded and the worker has a lot more work, then there are the Subassembly people who do off line jobs because its an easier job and can give them a little extra time to get ready for the next job. But then you know it all right because you walked threw on a tour. 
Now a days we have bar codes that a computer reads. It has to tell the overpaid line worker what to do for every vehicle. Every single one. Kind of a no brainer there. 
