I understand what you are saying, but are "Certified Trainer's" required at Public Gun Ranges ?
I of course cant answer that question without a lot of research, but he did present himself as an expert and a trainer.. His presence being required or not is academic. His true qualifications could be in question of course.. I could tell you i'm an ASE master mechanic, so you trust me to work on your brakes and you wont die.. i could be lying, or an incompetent boob that 'bought' my cert....
Originally posted by Boondawg: Personal Responsibility, right? The "Instructor" killed himself.
And the girl pays.......for life.
OUCH! Boonie, your analysis cuts straight to the heart of the matter. The "Instructor" was stupid and or criminally neglient, and he pays for it with his life.
BUT, a 9 year old has to live for the rest of her life with the knowledge that she KILLED someone. That is a hard thing to live with.
------------------ "Its nice to be important. Its more important to be nice."
Nope. The expert was negligent and he paid the price. Maybe the gun range was negligent for hiring someone as an "expert" who had no common sense. And the most negligent of all was the parent who put a CHILD in that situation to begin with. 9 year old kids belong on a playground, not a shooting range.
When i was a teen, the State required you to be at least 12 years old to get a hunting license. i don't know what the correct age for handling firearms is, but i think it's clearly older than 9 and 12 worked for us.
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 08-28-2014).]
I don't know how physically large the 9 year old girl is, but it isn't rocket science to know that a fully automatic machine pistol might be a bit much for a small person to handle, especially if they have never shot something like that before.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
(and I'm about as pro 2A as you can get)
This....
There is nothing other than 'Merica ignorance that would let this happen.. a 9 y.o. shooting an UZI.. Everyone that was involved here was ignorant...
Please don't neg me for it... but you have got to know this was senseless and has led to the loss of one life and the destruction of many others in its wake...
I was introduced to guns when I was 11.. hunting rifles and shotguns.. before any shell was rammed home or any trigger was pulled,there was a hell of a lot more instruction than 'Hang on and pull the trigger'
I watched a kid at my hunter training course pull back the lever of a 30/30 and immediately have it slip off and dry fire.. the instructor was waiting for this to happen.. made a fool of the kid..
9 year old kids belong on a playground, not a shooting range.
Perhaps *your* child cant handle it. Not all kids are raised so weak, and you have no right to judge other parents children or how they want to raise them due to your inadequacies and fears. In generations gone past, by 9 they were helping hunting for food, or working on the farm.. ( oooo dangerous farm implements.. oooo )
I do agree with you that the *TRAINER* was irresponsible and apparently was not qualified. However, If he had valid credentials and had not displayed such incompetence in the past, the 'range' had done due diligence too and also have zero fault in the matter. ( see my earlier comment about the ASE certs )
I had to, I will not except anti American slang, especially from a american and I thinks it's incredibly wrong to point the finger at a entire country because one instructor made a poor judgment call. Accidents happen it's very sad a life was lost and a 9 year old has to deal with it.
I had to, I will not except anti American slang, especially from a american and I thinks it's incredibly wrong to point the finger at a entire country because one instructor made a poor judgment call. Accidents happen it's very sad a life was lost and a 9 year old has to deal with it.
Aww c'mon,jm... I wasn't lumping the country as a whole here... my slang refers to those who take what they have for granted... And I acknowledge that the girl and her family,as well as the instructor's family are in a world of hurt...
Ok, I didn't read it right the fist time, while I still don't appreciate the anti American slang "Merica", you didn't use it in a context to degrade all americans. Negative removed.
I know a instructor that was working with someone who had just bought a gun and was firing it at their range. The gun jammed, they said there where no live rounds in it so he was just a little less carefull than he should have been. He tried to clear the gun with it pointed down range but the meat oposite his thumb was over the end of the barrel. He got lucky, the gun fired and shot right through the meat in his hand, entry and exit. He got away without stitches and has a new cautionary story.
So, when nobody was shooting, he was flippin' burgers.
Did you hear the one where a couple parents took their child to an Airshow. They went up to the owner of a Pitts Special and said my Child would like to fly your plane, why don't you tell a few instructions and let my child take it up, I'll make it worth your while.
Exactly. From the video posted, it looks like she received very brief instruction, fired ONE around and then he reaches in and flips the switch from semi to full.
Makes me think of the teens that pass drivers ed and get a Z28 for a first car. Sorry, the instructor made a mistake, fully automatic firearms aren't very forgiving and he paid the price. If I was at a range and saw someone that inexperienced, I'd be packing up. I've actually left the range refusing to pay after a couple of grandmothers kept waving .357's at me with finders on the trigger.
Exactly. From the video posted, it looks like she received very brief instruction, fired ONE around and then he reaches in and flips the switch from semi to full.
I think we all agree the 'instructor' was either incompetent or careless, and really had no business there. At least only he paid the price, it could have been several people killed or seriously injured due to his stupid actions.
Quoted from the owner of the range, "The kids rent a lot of automatic weapons, we do birthday parties for children here, we do bachelor, bachelorette parties at both facilities. We're part of the Las Vegas entertainment industry. ... If there wasn't a large demand for it, we wouldn't do it."
Ok, I didn't read it right the fist time, while I still don't appreciate the anti American slang "Merica", you didn't use it in a context to degrade all americans. Negative removed.
Handled very nicely. I don't have a clue what caused my negatives.
The Instructor should have been the MOST aware of the gun's recoil and that it might be too much to handle for the kid.
+1 Agree, the instructor should have known what was going on and should have been aware.
Do I think it was dumb for a 9 year old girl to be shooting an Uzi...... Yes. Do I believe they should ban kids from using guns..... Hell No... A few of my fondest memories growing up was learning to shoot, and dealing with the bruised shoulders. Guns are no more or less lethal than any car is, in many ways a car is more lethal (ya don't have to reload), yet we still have people running them around schools and churches. Imagine if you were driving a 10,000lb Truck, and put your foot to the floor in front of a uhm, lets say, Christian Rights Parade full of Nuns holding boxes of Kittens while pulling sick children, how many could you run over and knock off before your truck got stuck, vs. any standard gun.
Responsible operation is all it takes.
I am in no way saying that in my post we should go out and harm, sick kids or kittens.
------------------ 857GT Part 85GT Part 87GT Part Caddy, 93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Now with Nitrous. Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics For Sale $4000, Yellow 88GT 5spd Full Poly Suspension, Lowered 1/2" in front, Corner Carver.
... Guns are no more or less lethal than any car is, in many ways a car is more lethal (ya don't have to reload), yet we still have people running them around schools and churches..
There's an age, training, and ability requirement for operating vehicles. In most states there's also a requirement to purchase liability insurance. At this range, there was only a monetary requirement.
[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 08-30-2014).]
I think the whole key here is "age and STRENGth appropriate" firearms. Something that kicks like an UZI is NOT appropriate for a 9-year-old (or some low-body strength adults even). At 9 y.o. a .22 is PLENTY to learn the basics and have an enjoyable day.....and .22 conversion kits are available for it http://www.subgun-ordnance.com/ConversionKits.html
IMHO here, its NOT that somebody let a kid use an Uzi on a range, its that they gave her one chambered for a round WAY above her ability to hold onto, and that is straight common sense on the part of ALL adults involved that day. They had fired the thing, they knew just how much it kicks and pulls, and it wouldnt take a brains surgeon to guess a small kid could not hold that.
[This message has been edited by MidEngineManiac (edited 08-30-2014).]
I think the whole key here is "age and STRENGth appropriate" firearms. Something that kicks like an UZI is NOT appropriate for a 9-year-old (or some low-body strength adults even). At 9 y.o. a .22 is PLENTY to learn the basics and have an enjoyable day.....
Learn the basics first i agree, but i know some 9 year kids that ARE strong enough, after proper training. I dont want to see this become an age issue ( like the feds are going to do.. ) but a competency issue.
Note i'm also not saying ( as someone mentioned above ) about 9 year old kids owning weapons. That still should only be an adult. But using, on private property, its fine.
SAN DIEGO — The accidental killing of a shooting range instructor by a 9-year-old girl learning to shoot an Uzi unleashed a storm of criticism and anger, with much of it aimed at her parents.
But the ex-wife and children of instructor Charles Vacca say they harbor no ill feelings toward the girl and her family. Instead, they feel sorry for the child and want to write her a letter to comfort her.
“That’s truly how we feel,” Vacca’s ex-wife, Anamarie, said by phone.
Charles Vacca was standing next to the girl when she squeezed the trigger at the Last Stop range in White Hills, Ariz., about 60 miles southeast of Las Vegas.
The recoil wrenched the Uzi upward, and the 39-year-old Vacca was fatally shot once in the head.
Anamarie Vacca said she has not spoken to the girl or her parents since the accident Monday, but her children want to write the letter, “knowing their family has to grieve through the same process.”
The identities of the girl and her family have not been released.
“I know we’re going to let her know to not revolve her life around it,” Anamarie Vacca said about the accident.
Groups seeking to reduce gun violence have said it was reckless to let the girl handle such a powerful weapon and are calling for tighter regulations regarding children and guns.
But in Las Vegas, a shooting range owner with 30 years of experience said Friday regulators should not overreact to the tragic accidental shooting
Bob Irwin, owner of The Gun Store, said it is the first time he has ever heard of a range master being killed.
“Statistically this is a nonevent,” he said. “We don’t need to change any laws for one incident.”
Irwin said at his range, instructors have helped children as young as 5 shoot guns. But when a gun has too much recoil or is otherwise too much for a client, or the shooter is a child, the range masters hold on to the clients and essentially just let them pull the trigger, he said.
“We’ve never had a range master killed or even shot,” Irwin said. “We’ve never had a customer shot. This never happens. It has never happened before in Nevada or anywhere else.”
Sam Scarmardo, who operates the outdoor shooting range in the Arizona desert, has said the parents had signed waivers saying they understood the rules and were standing nearby, video-recording their daughter, when the accident happened.
Investigators released 27 seconds of the footage showing the girl from behind as she fires at a black-silhouette target. The footage, which does not show the instructor actually being shot, helped feed the furor on social media and beyond.
