Hopefully, it will no longer be corporate welfare.... requirements and repayments will slow/stop "claw back".
There's never any guarantee in business. Bankruptcy will void those requirements and repayments. Look at your GM link for an example. It's no different than an individual taking out a loan and not being able to pay it back.
There's never any guarantee in business. Bankruptcy will void those requirements and repayments. Look at your GM link for an example. It's no different than an individual taking out a loan and not being able to pay it back.
Then, you must support the idea that tax dollars should not be used this way, as it is our government gambling with our money.
BTW, look up claw back... it is related to companies using corporate welfare to jump to new locations on tax payer dime... it is a simple loop-hole that needs to close (and is being closed).
Bankruptcy may or may not void those requirements entirely, as it depends upon the settlement. GM is the exception. And if an individual takes out a loan and doesn't pay it back... it doesn't mean they are off the hook for that debt, as it isn't just that easy.
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 08-28-2014).]
Then, you must support the idea that tax dollars should not be used this way, as it is our government gambling with our money.
BTW, look up claw back... it is related to companies using corporate welfare to jump to new locations on tax payer dime... it is a simple loop-hole that needs to close (and is being closed).
Bankruptcy may or may not void those requirements entirely, as it depends upon the settlement. GM is the exception. And if an individual takes out a loan and doesn't pay it back... it doesn't mean they are off the hook for that debt, as it isn't just that easy.
You don't seem to understand how taxes, finance, or bankruptcy work. I can't help you. Have a nice day.
In the thread about Americans renouncing their citizenship, many complained that they were unpatriotic for taking their money and leaving to save on taxes.
I didn't complain, I said I hope the door doesn't hit them in the back-side and that they were "Sunshine Patriots." I have no trouble using the same logic when I try to support American companies over foreign companies.(including Burger King).
" Bankruptcy may or may not void those requirements entirely, as it depends upon the settlement. GM is the exception. And if an individual takes out a loan and doesn't pay it back... it doesn't mean they are off the hook for that debt, as it isn't just that easy ."
As usual you dont know what your talking about. Ive had 2 full bankruptcies in my life. One was at my divorce and one was for business (a contractor ripped me off for thousands). Both totally erased any debt to everyone. You have the option of paying for say a car, and just resigning an agreement with the loan company. I didnt have to pay any debts I didnt want to keep, not a penny. In some cases depending on state, you can keep your house, clothes, tools of your trade....etc...and not pay for them. Of all the stuff I owed money on, all I gave up was one car and a big screen tv that those lenders repossessed. I kept everything else. No one, including credit card companies even showed up in court. So Im an expert in this in Oklahoma and Ohio, anyway. The day after the final court appearance on the last one, I bought 2 limos and 3 airplanes for a partnership in a charter/limo business. I also got a new American Express card, even though they were one I bankrupted. That is now a gold card. One was in 1972 and other was in 1985. So yes, it is that easy. I just paid the lawyer and showed up in court 2 times for 10 minutes.
Originally posted by jaskispyder: Believe it... There are requirements on tax abatements... here are some examples (news articles). Instead of calling me gullible, try researching and asking yourself... "hey, could this be true?". As a taxpayer, if you let your city give out tax abatements based on promises and no formal requirements (claw back) then you should be very upset.
I did not call you gullible. I have made wrong assumptions myself, believing what I am told. I know there are requirements on tax abatements. As I did do my own research, using the city of San Antonio's Tax Abatement Guidlines. Some requirements are a certain amount of money invested, building/locating in certain areas of town, and yes, minimum levels of jobs created. The only jobs requirement I saw initially was that they had to ...
quote
Section 5. Local Hire Requirement Any project seeking a tax abatement must hire at least 25 percent of its new employees at the project location from residents of the City of San Antonio or Bexar County.
I was wrong, you were right. Be that as it may, is Burger King violating their tax abatement agreement ?
[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 08-29-2014).]
This was years ago but I think it was "60 minutes" and I recall the plant managers name. It is pretty common knowledge though that the wages paid at the plants on the Mexican/US border are extremely low, that is why the plants are there.
What is the old adage? Democrats know so many things that just aren't so?
"common knowledge" does not equate to facts.
A company isn't going to move the entire operations and manufacturing of their business to another country because of a perceived slight increase in capital revenue. It has to be a SIGNIFICANT amount of money before the company is going to be willing to move production or its headquarters. How many tens to hundreds of millions of dollars do you think it required of Green Giant to move that plant to Mexico? To just get up and leave their existing plant and infrastructure, and build a new plant and infrastructure in Mexico? How much do you think it costs them in increased fuel costs to now ship their product from the new location versus the old location? How about the delay in shipment as they wait patiently to come across the border?
I guarantee if I spend even 5 minutes looking into this, I guarantee to you there's probably something about a union that was trying to forcibly raise pay, won't let the corporation get rid of unproductive workers, etc, etc... the same old, same old.
EDIT: Just looked it up, apparently they were unionized.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-29-2014).]
Or maybe they were looking to earn a wage high enough to live on, or maybe the working conditions were bad.. etc. You are jumping to conclusions... using "common knowledge" of anti-union speak.
Maybe the supply of beans were already coming from Mexico (or they were going to switch suppliers).
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
What is the old adage? Democrats know so many things that just aren't so?
"common knowledge" does not equate to facts.
A company isn't going to move the entire operations and manufacturing of their business to another country because of a perceived slight increase in capital revenue. It has to be a SIGNIFICANT amount of money before the company is going to be willing to move production or its headquarters. How many tens to hundreds of millions of dollars do you think it required of Green Giant to move that plant to Mexico? To just get up and leave their existing plant and infrastructure, and build a new plant and infrastructure in Mexico? How much do you think it costs them in increased fuel costs to now ship their product from the new location versus the old location? How about the delay in shipment as they wait patiently to come across the border?
I guarantee if I spend even 5 minutes looking into this, I guarantee to you there's probably something about a union that was trying to forcibly raise pay, won't let the corporation get rid of unproductive workers, etc, etc... the same old, same old.
EDIT: Just looked it up, apparently they were unionized.
Or maybe they were looking to earn a wage high enough to live on, or maybe the working conditions were bad.. etc. You are jumping to conclusions... using "common knowledge" of anti-union speak.
This is the fundamental flaw in your understanding:
If you're looking to earn a wage high enough to live on, and your current job isn't providing it, then you quit and find a better job. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
The company doesn't exist to provide jobs, it exists to make money for the company owner. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
[This message has been edited by 82-T/A [At Work] (edited 08-29-2014).]
A company doesn't exist if people can't afford their products. Seems pretty simple to me.
No, it doesn't work that way. And for that matter, there has NEVER been a time in world history where people need wealth first before a person decides to build a product. Wealth isn't a zero-sum game... if it was, there would never be any more wealth than the Rai stones.
A company exists because a person sees a need / demand for a specific kind of product that people are willing to pay for.
Using your logic, no one would have ever bothered to go into Thailand, India, China, or any other relatively undeveloped country in the first place.
We are talking about a company that already exists and is delivering a product. If all companies dropped their pay, people wouldn't be able to afford their product and company would not exist. I hate to tell you, but it does work that way.
We seen first hand, here in this country, what happens when the middle class doesn't have money to spend. Look at the most recent recessions. Jobs lost, people were not spending, companies went under.
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
No, it doesn't work that way. And for that matter, there has NEVER been a time in world history where people need wealth first before a person decides to build a product. Wealth isn't a zero-sum game... if it was, there would never be any more wealth than the Rai stones.
A company exists because a person sees a need / demand for a specific kind of product that people are willing to pay for.
Using your logic, no one would have ever bothered to go into Thailand, India, China, or any other relatively undeveloped country in the first place.
We are talking about a company that already exists and is delivering a product. If all companies dropped their pay, people wouldn't be able to afford their product and company would not exist. I hate to tell you, but it does work that way.
We seen first hand, here in this country, what happens when the middle class doesn't have money to spend. Look at the most recent recessions. Jobs lost, people were not spending, companies went under.
Ok, we're back to square one again, let's start at the beginning. RE-READ what I first said.
A company does not exist to provide a living wage to an employee. A company exists to sell products for which there is a demand.
If a person working at said company cannot live on the wage he / she is getting, then they can quit and find another job.
IF... the company is legitimately being unreasonable in their pay, and people quit as a result of it, that would mean that demand for the position does not exceed supply... in which case the company would be FORCED to pay higher wages simply to keep the workforce at the levels it requires.
THAT is real-world... THAT is how the world works.
There is NOTHING that you're saying that poses any kind of real logic here... a labor union does not function off the capacity of supply and demand fundamentals. It functions on the "how much can we squeeze before we reach the tipping point." Sometimes they reach that tipping point, and sometimes they go over. In the case of green giant, they reached the tipping point. It may not be reached overnight, but the result is the same. Take the power away from a company to manage itself (in any capacity) and it will find a way to get out of it. Again, socialism doesn't work unless EVERYONE (the entire world) is on board.
This is logic, these are facts, THIS IS REALITY... anything else you're spewing here is ideology and wishful vibes.
Wages are only a small factor in moving a company over seas. When you can save millions in dumping toxins in somebody's back yard, and pump tons of toxic crud into the air, why not? And forget about any safety, if a worker gets killed, there are 10 more waiting in line. I can still remember when the Saginaw river was so bad that it never froze even with weeks of below zero weather. And it would eat the bottoms out of any boat you put in it. You want to save Millions as a factory owner that's the way to go, then just blame your move on the unions.
Wages are only a small factor in moving a company over seas. When you can save millions in dumping toxins in somebody's back yard, and pump tons of toxic crud into the air, why not? And forget about any safety, if a worker gets killed, there are 10 more waiting in line. I can still remember when the Saginaw river was so bad that it never froze even with weeks of below zero weather. And it would eat the bottoms out of any boat you put in it. You want to save Millions as a factory owner that's the way to go, then just blame your move on the unions.
That's probably why BK decided to move. It's common knowledge that all of their food is made in centrally located toxic waste factories.
Saginaw used to have 3 foundries, all moved to Mexico, rather than meet air standards. BK is moving to avoid taxes. And do you really know whats in that whopper?
Saginaw used to have 3 foundries, all moved to Mexico, rather than meet air standards. BK is moving to avoid taxes. And do you really know whats in that whopper?
I'm guessing not much that came out of a foundry, but I could be wrong.
Saginaw used to have 3 foundries, all moved to Mexico, rather than meet air standards. BK is moving to avoid taxes. And do you really know whats in that whopper?
Weird, you mean that there is a history of companies moving out of the country because of overbearing regulations? This is astounding! Someone should make a law!! [/sarcasm]
This is logic, these are facts, THIS IS REALITY... anything else you're spewing here is ideology and wishful vibes.
Your "facts" are just that... your facts, not mine, not others. You believe it is true, but the world and "your facts" do not match. Let's get rid of all regulation on businesses and min. wage. Lets see how that works out. Give busineeses the right to vote also... why stop there. Give them all the powers. Sounds like you would like that. Works well in China.
Weird, you mean that there is a history of companies moving out of the country because of overbearing regulations? This is astounding! Someone should make a law!! [/sarcasm]
Brad
Brad.... do you enjoy dioxins in your water? How about PCB? Thanks to these foundries and businesses, they have contaminated the Saginaw River. Without regulations, it would have continued. The river is starting to recover... after many decades, but the soil will have these chemicals in them for centuries.
I'm guessing not much that came out of a foundry, but I could be wrong.
The General Motors plants in the county were:
The original Jackson-Wilcox factory on Saginaw's North Hamilton (ca. 1906), later Saginaw Steering Gear Plant 1, closed 1984,[21] sold by GM in 1987 to Thomson Industries, still operating as of 2009.[22] Chevrolet Saginaw Parts at Sixth and Washington on Saginaw's East Side, built in 1906 as the assembly plant of the Rainier Motor Car Company, acquired by GM in 1907; closed 1983 and demolished 1984.[23] Saginaw Malleable Iron on the Southwest Side (1917); contracted to build gear housings for GM's Jacox division (the former Jackson Wilcox company, later Saginaw Steering Gear), sold to GM in 1919, later part of Saginaw Products Division, reorganized into a new Central Foundry Division in 1946.[24] Closed May 2007,[25] razed in 2010 and for sale as of May 2013 by the RACER Trust, charged with disposing of abandoned GM properties. Chevrolet Grey Iron, on the North Side of Saginaw, opened as Central Foundry in 1918, operated by Chevrolet Division 1927–1983, thereafter by GM Powertrain Division; still operating today as Saginaw Metal Casting Operations,[26] the only GM manufacturing division still operating in Saginaw County. Chevrolet Saginaw Transmission on East Genesee in Saginaw, built 1919–20 for the Michigan Crankshaft Company, acquired by GM in 1921 and placed under Saginaw Products; transferred to Chevrolet upon the dissolution of the Crankshaft Division (ca. 1927). Home of the Saginaw 3-speed and 4-speed manual transmissions; transferred to the Delco Moraine Division in 1984, which became Delphi Automotive in 1995; after 2007, leased and later purchased outright by TRW Automotive, operating as TRW Braking and Suspension[27] until closing in February 2014.[28] Saginaw Steering Gear Plant 2, the "Gun Plant" (see below) adjacent to Malleable Iron; opened March 1941, closed July 2001, razed 2002.[29] For sale by RACER Trust as of May 2013. The 400-acre Saginaw Steering Gear complex in Buena Vista Township; Plant 3 opened 1953 next to the then-new US-23 bypass, adding Plants 4, 5 and 6 by 1966 and a seventh shortly thereafter. Later known as Saginaw Division, then part of Delphi, sold in 2010 to Nexteer Corporation,[20] is supplying GM, Ford and Chrysler as of 2013.[30] Chevrolet Nodular Iron in Buena Vista Township, built 1964–1965, entered production 1967, announced for closure 1986, closed 1988; since demolished.[21][31] Property for sale by RACER Trust as of May 2013.
The original Jackson-Wilcox factory on Saginaw's North Hamilton (ca. 1906), later Saginaw Steering Gear Plant 1, closed 1984,[21] sold by GM in 1987 to Thomson Industries, still operating as of 2009.[22] Chevrolet Saginaw Parts at Sixth and Washington on Saginaw's East Side, built in 1906 as the assembly plant of the Rainier Motor Car Company, acquired by GM in 1907; closed 1983 and demolished 1984.[23] Saginaw Malleable Iron on the Southwest Side (1917); contracted to build gear housings for GM's Jacox division (the former Jackson Wilcox company, later Saginaw Steering Gear), sold to GM in 1919, later part of Saginaw Products Division, reorganized into a new Central Foundry Division in 1946.[24] Closed May 2007,[25] razed in 2010 and for sale as of May 2013 by the RACER Trust, charged with disposing of abandoned GM properties. Chevrolet Grey Iron, on the North Side of Saginaw, opened as Central Foundry in 1918, operated by Chevrolet Division 1927–1983, thereafter by GM Powertrain Division; still operating today as Saginaw Metal Casting Operations,[26] the only GM manufacturing division still operating in Saginaw County. Chevrolet Saginaw Transmission on East Genesee in Saginaw, built 1919–20 for the Michigan Crankshaft Company, acquired by GM in 1921 and placed under Saginaw Products; transferred to Chevrolet upon the dissolution of the Crankshaft Division (ca. 1927). Home of the Saginaw 3-speed and 4-speed manual transmissions; transferred to the Delco Moraine Division in 1984, which became Delphi Automotive in 1995; after 2007, leased and later purchased outright by TRW Automotive, operating as TRW Braking and Suspension[27] until closing in February 2014.[28] Saginaw Steering Gear Plant 2, the "Gun Plant" (see below) adjacent to Malleable Iron; opened March 1941, closed July 2001, razed 2002.[29] For sale by RACER Trust as of May 2013. The 400-acre Saginaw Steering Gear complex in Buena Vista Township; Plant 3 opened 1953 next to the then-new US-23 bypass, adding Plants 4, 5 and 6 by 1966 and a seventh shortly thereafter. Later known as Saginaw Division, then part of Delphi, sold in 2010 to Nexteer Corporation,[20] is supplying GM, Ford and Chrysler as of 2013.[30] Chevrolet Nodular Iron in Buena Vista Township, built 1964–1965, entered production 1967, announced for closure 1986, closed 1988; since demolished.[21][31] Property for sale by RACER Trust as of May 2013.
Hey, just answering your question.... If you don't like the response, it is your own fault.
Learn to read. I commented about many foundries supplied Burger King. It wasn't a question. And you couldn't figure that out? See, this is why it's impossible for us to have a useful conversation. You're too interested in replying to what you wanted me to say, not what I actually said.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 09-01-2014).]
Brad.... do you enjoy dioxins in your water? How about PCB? Thanks to these foundries and businesses, they have contaminated the Saginaw River. Without regulations, it would have continued. The river is starting to recover... after many decades, but the soil will have these chemicals in them for centuries.
You actually think that regulations have stopped water and ground pollution? The EPA is a joke that exists only to suck money. Pollution is worse than it was years ago, it's just different chemicals polluting now. Sure the river won't catch fire, but it's doing other things that are just as bad, or worse.
Look this movie up on netflix. Some good info there, some poor info as well, but I suspect you can sort some of it out yourself.
You should note that I have a degree in Environmental Engineering, and was a Class A Water Operator, and Class B Waste Water operator. Which led me to being a Water Superintendent. I understand your super intelligence trumps everyone's education and life experiences. But you may want to pick on someone that didn't clean water for a living here.
Some good info there, some poor info as well, but I suspect you can sort some of it out yourself. 
