So according to you, Jews are a bunch of terrorists. Please tell us more about how you hate Jews.
Sorry, can't do that. Because I don't. I live in Miami, I deal with Jewish people every day, they are among my friends, acquaintances and clients. Why would I possibly hate them?
What I did in the post that you declare as "Jew hating" is that I took a (humorous, or so I took it) suggestion by Pyrthian and ran with it. I think it's a historical fact that Zionism (a Jewish nationalist movement that supports the creation of a Jewish homeland in Israel) led to the eventual creation of the Jewish state of Israel through mass immigration into Palestine beginning in the early 20th century. I also think that it's a historical fact that Jewish groups resorted to terrorism, which let to a quote by field marshal Montgomery that in the Jewish terrorist organizations, British servicemen were "facing a cruel, fanatical and cunning enemy, and there was no way of knowing who was friend and who foe.". Jewish groups used terrorist tactics against the British, Ottomans and Arabs.
NOWHERE DID I SAY OR MEANT TO IMPLY THAT JEWS IN GENERAL WERE A "BUNCH OF TERRORISTS". What I did say is that IMO the Jewish state of Israel is an artificial and largely religiously inspired construct that, along with the colonialist legacy that Britain and France left in the Middle East, have caused the current appalling situation.
OK, having said that, I want to make absolutely clear (and I have done so before on this forum) that I have no love or understanding for the likes of Hamas, their ideology and tactics. Nor is the fact that Jewish terrorism existed an excuse for Arab/Palestinian terrorism. I dislike religious fanatics or religiously dominated politics of any kind. I continue to think that there's no real goodwill to reach a lasting compromise in either leadership, Israeli or Arab.
What I also dislike are the one-sided and black-or-white opinions that are prevalent in this forum regarding this matter. Nowhere in history there are only good guys on one side and only bad guys on the other. Ever.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 07-27-2014).]
One thing to keep in mind is that "Palestine" as it is typically referred to is not a state. It's a geographic region that throughout history has had multiple Jewish states/kingdoms at different times has been controlled by Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Sunni Arab Caliphates, the Shia Fatimid Caliphate, Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, and the British before UN Resolution 181 that partitioned the region into an Israel state, and Arab state, and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem.
Both Jews and Arabs in the area are Palestinians just as a Brit or German would be a European. The Palestinians fighting "Israeli occupation" view all of the territory as theirs even though they never controlled it to begin with.
Britian's rule of the Palestinian territory ended May 14, 1948. The Arab-Israeli War began May 15, 1948 when Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq all joined together to invade Israel.
The Palestinians fighting "Israeli occupation" view all of the territory as theirs even though they never controlled it to begin with.
Of course you're right that there was no state of Palestine but Ottoman provinces and later a British protectorate. However, in 1914 the Jewish population in Palestine was only about 60,000, representing a little over 7% of the total. Massive Jewish immigration changed that ratio quickly (against the will of British authorities BTW) and I wonder how other people would have reacted to that if that had happened where they lived (E.g. the Texans, to use an earlier example).
Of course you're right that there was no state of Palestine but Ottoman provinces and later a British protectorate. However, in 1914 the Jewish population in Palestine was only about 60,000, representing a little over 7% of the total. Massive Jewish immigration changed that ratio quickly (against the will of British authorities BTW) and I wonder how other people would have reacted to that if that had happened where they lived (E.g. the Texans, to use an earlier example).
We have that in Texas and other States with Hispanic immigrants. But I don't see anyone shooting rockets or blowing up buses.
Then perhaps it wasn't the proper time or place to be joking about such things.
Brad
Maybe. You still haven't replied how the factual statements contained in the post you considered Jew-hating are inaccurate. It can't be hating if it's true.
A good rule of thumb is the good guy's soldiers stand in front of civilians. The bad guys stand behind them.
Sometimes things just aren't as black and white as many people want to believe.
Lots more videos out there too. I remember this stuff happening during the hamas/Israel dustup a few years back.
We can talk about "good guys" and "bad guys" all we want...but I believe over the last 60 years, both Palestinian and Israeli peoples in that region have been behaving like spoiled children in that region and I don't respect anyone involved.
Maybe. You still haven't replied how the factual statements contained in the post you considered Jew-hating are inaccurate. It can't be hating if it's true.
Wait, let me get this straight. You say you were joking when cornered.... But you still insist that I validate your joke by admitting it's accuracy. Am I understanding you correctly?
Wait, let me get this straight. You say you were joking when cornered.... But you still insist that I validate your joke by admitting it's accuracy. Am I understanding you correctly?
Brad
Arguing the Jew's right to exist with a German is apparently an exercise in futility even in the 21st century.
Arguing the Jew's right to exist with a German is apparently an exercise in futility even in the 21st century.
You guys really are a piece of work. Firstly, you seem to be unable to distinguish between a Jew (a person of Jewish faith) and the State of Israel (a political entity). Secondly, you seem to be unable to accept that the world is not black and white. Pointing out historical facts about Jewish immigration into Palestine doesn't make anyone anti-semitic or a sympathizer of radical Islam (heck, I even think "normal" Islam is idiotic).
Only today I was discussing the topic of the current armed conflict between Hamas and Israel with a Jewish client (with someone who has a daughter currently studying at Tel Aviv university, no less) and she was more open minded than you guys are!
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 07-28-2014).]
Wait, let me get this straight. You say you were joking when cornered.... But you still insist that I validate your joke by admitting it's accuracy. Am I understanding you correctly?
Brad
OK. Since you apparently can't read or understand what you are reading, let me help you. Phyrtian "suggested" to put Israel in Texas. That I took as a joke because obviously it's unlikely that the state of Israel would be created in Texas. THAT was the joke part.
I commented on that post as follows: "I want to see what Texans will say when rich Jews first buy up a lot of property, then they and other Jews move there in large numbers, then start a terrorist campaign to promote their desire for statehood and then declare independence... ".
I stand by my comment insofar that I think that Jewish mass immigration (based on Zionist ideology) into Palestine beginning in the early 20th century is a historical fact and that Jewish groups using terrorist tactics against Ottomans, British and Arabs in order to attain statehood for Israel is a historical fact.
You then retorted with: "Not sure why you are attacking Jewish people, but please remember that you are no longer in Germany, and we don't "hate the Jews" over here like you may have been used to in Germany."
I think that this post was completely out of line based on what I had said. I have since then explained myself in more detail and I still challenge you to respond to my points instead of resorting to gratuitous personal insults.
Go back and re-read it if you don't believe me.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 07-28-2014).]
We have that in Texas and other States with Hispanic immigrants. But I don't see anyone shooting rockets or blowing up buses.
Would that still be true if those hispanic immigrants started to campaign (including violent actions) for an independent country and actually ended up declaring independence? Wouldn't that provoke an immediate military response from the US?
Pointing out historical facts about Jewish immigration into Palestine...
Just stop. You've already been shown to post untrue information, whether by accident or on purpose. You either don't know the historical facts or you're lying. That or this is just a game for you and you're trolling for your own amusement.
quote
Originally posted by yellowstone:
Only today I was discussing the topic of the current armed conflict between Hamas and Israel with a Jewish client (with someone who has a daughter currently studying at Tel Aviv university, no less) and she was more open minded than you guys are!
I'll wager you were a much less arrogant gas bag with a paying client than you are here. Troll your clients for a while and see how open minded they are.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-28-2014).]
I don't think that the Balfour Declaration falsifies any of the points that Yellowstone was trying to make.
If that's all there is to the Balfour Declaration (one short memorandum reproduced by Formula88). The devil was in the details. As ever greater waves of Jewish refugees from Europe looked towards British controlled Palestine as a refuge from persecution after the rise of Hitler, there was a conflict with the clause "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine."
Just stop. You've already been shown to post untrue information, whether by accident or on purpose. You either don't know the historical facts or you're lying. That or this is just a game for you and you're trolling for your own amusement.
You're free to dispute based on facts. Anything? Having and maintaining a different opinion from yours is not trolling. That or we both are trolling...
And none of this justifies the personal attacks on me based on my nationality that you and Fats have been mounting (plus the name calling). That's just pathetic and weak and doesn't reflect well on yourself.
1) Jewish immigration into Palestine:
quote
In 1880, the total number of Jews in the country was 20,000‑25,000, two‑thirds of whom were in Jerusalem; on the eve of independence they Ânumbered about 650,000, in old and new towns and in hundreds of settlements throughout the land. There were 44 Jewish agricultural settlements, mostly moshavot, when the British conquered Palestine in 1917; by the time the State of Israel was established in 1948, the pioneering ideology of "conquest of soil and labor" of the Second and Third Aliyot added another 148 kibbutzim and 94 cooperative villages (moshavim). Even more impressive was the development of the urban sector, which absorbed more than three‑quarters of the immigration. Tel Aviv, the "first Hebrew city," numbered 40,000 inhabitants in 1931, 135,000 at the end of the Fifth Aliyah, and 200,000 in 1945.
In 1935, the Irgun, a Zionist underground military organization, split off from the Haganah.[6] The Irgun were the armed expression of the nascent ideology of Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. He expressed this ideology as "every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arab and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[7]
After World War II, between 1945 and the 29 November 1947 Partition vote, British soldiers and policemen were targeted by Irgun and Lehi. Haganah and Palmah first collaborated with the British against them, particularly during the Hunting Season, before actively joining them in the Jewish Resistance Movement, then finally choosing an official neutral position after 1946 while the Irgun and the Lehi went on their attacks against the British.
The Haganah carried out violent attacks in Palestine, such as the liberation of interned immigrants from the Atlit camp, the bombing of the country's railroad network, sabotage raids on radar installations and bases of the British Palestine police. It also continued to organize illegal immigration.
The [King David Hotel] bombing inflamed public opinion in Britain. After the bombing, editorials in British newspapers argued that the bombing deflated statements by the government that it had been winning against the Jewish paramilitaries.
In a visit made sometime before the attack, Bernard Montgomery had told the British army commander in Palestine, General Sir Evelyn Barker, to emphasise to the British servicemen that they were "facing a cruel, fanatical and cunning enemy, and there was no way of knowing who was friend and who foe."
...Prime Minister Attlee wrote to American President Harry S. Truman: "I am sure you will agree that the inhuman crime committed in Jerusalem on 22 July calls for the strongest action against terrorism...
"The Israel-Hamas conflict has laid bare the new divides of the Middle East," says Danielle Pletka, vice president of foreign and defense policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute. "It's no longer the Muslims against the Jews. Now it's the extremists -- the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Hezbollah, and their backers Iran, Qatar and Turkey -- against Israel and the more moderate Muslims including Jordan, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia."
I consider both sides in the wrong, but Israel continues to kill children and innocents, and I question anyone who is still supporting them in this conflict. Both sides are being ****ing idiots.
I consider both sides in the wrong, but Israel continues to kill children and innocents, and I question anyone who is still supporting them in this conflict. Both sides are being ****ing idiots.
Hamas is attacking from schools, and using children as shields. The point of the entire thing is to get people upset at Israel so that they lose popular support. Israel has two choices, fight back and be looked at as the "bad guy", or step aside and give up their land.
Hamas wants an end to the blockade that was imposed by Israel after the militants won the 2006 Palestinian parliament election, were sidelined by Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, and then seized Gaza in 2007. Some minor things are conceivable, like a small extension of the rights of fishermen to venture out to sea. But Israel will not allow true sea access or an airport as long as Hamas controls the strip. The concern is that even bigger rockets and weapons would stream in. Israel also won't soon open its borders to Gazans, remembering too well the suicide bombings of a decade ago.
There is one plausible way to greatly ease the siege: Open the southern border near the town of Rafah leading to Egypt, and put the Gaza side not under the control of Hamas but under the Palestinian Authority. Cairo has been extremely cool to the idea of opening the frontier but not to the PA taking it over, in line with the tough Egypt-first policy of new President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi. Egypt seems little inclined to help Hamas against Israel, views Gaza as someone else's problem, and fears Gaza's militants trickling in and compounding its own jihadi problems in Sinai. But the PA on the border could be spun as a win for everyone: Hamas broke the siege; the PA is back in business in the strip; Israel didn't give up much under fire; the Gazans feel relief; and Egypt is the hero. When the dust finally settles, don't be surprised if this is the face-saving way out.
As long as the rocket attacks on Israel continue, I would expect Israel to continue their offensive to end them. If the attackers (don't care if their Muslim, Arab, Turkish, whatever) put their launch sites and weapon stores in civilian areas such as hospitals, schools and mosques, those sites will continue to be bombed with the resultant civilian casualties.
They (the Gaza attackers) want civilian casualties to drum up sympathy.
Israel says some of the Palistinian deaths are at the hand of the Hamas themselves from malfunctioning rockets that come down and exploded on their own land. When 2 countries (or groups) are at war, there is always collateral damage and deaths. If you fire rockets from schools, churches and hospitals, expect them to be hit back. Hamas is losing people at 20-1 odds. One will run out of people at some point making them the loser. My money is on the Israelies winning at those odds. When I was flying in VN, Viet Cong were firing missiles up from school and hospital parking lots using them as protection. We were not 'allowed' to attack those sites because of civilian casualties. Guess what....we had a lot of 'malfunctions and accidental ' weapons drops on them anyway.
I consider both sides in the wrong, but Israel continues to kill children and innocents, and I question anyone who is still supporting them in this conflict. Both sides are being ****ing idiots.
Agree,both sides our at fault for this disaster.You would hope that the UN and surrounding nations would cluck there leaders heads together like moe on the three stooges and tell them to knock it off!
I was just remarking that for you "again and again" is just one time. Hey, it's your words, not mine.
Brad
Let's see. Since you're into nit-picking, this is what I posted:
quote
Originally posted by yellowstone:
Yes, you're missing that I was making the same two points over and over again while supporting them with evidence and sources.
What it says here is that I was making the same points over and over again (which I did) and NOT that I posted evidence over and over again (which I didn't).
Agree,both sides our at fault for this disaster.You would hope that the UN and surrounding nations would cluck there leaders heads together like moe on the three stooges and tell them to knock it off!
The UN is supporting Hamas. They're not neutral in the conflict. The only "fault" of Israel's is that they want to exist and defend themselves when attacked.
The only "fault" of Israel's is that they want to exist and defend themselves when attacked.
Viewing only the current situation that's true (and it's not that I don't sympathize with it). But what would you say if the, say, Cherokee decided that they wanted you to get out of their ancestral lands? They were there continuously and exclusively until just couple of hundred years ago, not thousands of years ago. And I'm sure their gods "gave" or "promised" them their lands, too, as gods tend to do.
Viewing only the current situation that's true (and it's not that I don't sympathize with it). But what would you say if the, say, Cherokee decided that they wanted you to get out of their ancestral lands? They were there continuously and exclusively until just couple of hundred years ago, not thousands of years ago. And I'm sure their gods "gave" or "promised" them their lands, too, as gods tend to do.
When Trans-Jordan was established as the Arab-Palestinian homeland and Israel as the Jewish-Palestinian homeland, why didn't the Arabs complain about Jordan "occupying" their ancestral land? The only complaint they ever had was with land that had Jews on it.
Viewing only the current situation that's true (and it's not that I don't sympathize with it). But what would you say if the, say, Cherokee decided that they wanted you to get out of their ancestral lands? They were there continuously and exclusively until just couple of hundred years ago, not thousands of years ago. And I'm sure their gods "gave" or "promised" them their lands, too, as gods tend to do.
This is more like the Mormons bombing California no matter what is given. They ask for the northernmost section stating they will then be peaceful. They are given what they ask for and continue bombing California.
They don't want California because it's their ancestral land, they just don't want the Californians to be there.
Imagine a group of people that have been taught for generations that another group of people should be killed, at any cost, that there is no other option. There are of course people in Palestine that don't believe this, and the theory is that most of the bombings of Israel are coming from people using Gaza etc. as a base, but don't belong to that country. We will likely never know the truth however, because the #1 rule when it comes to Palestine is to lie about everything when it comes to Israel.
Am I understanding you correctly? 
Hey, it's your words, not mine. 
