41 percent. That's the number of Americans who will be arrested by the time they're 23 years old. It's all part of our "War on Crime," which has given America a higher incarceration rate than North Korea, Russia, Ukraine, or any other country in the world. So what is really the problem?
quote
Still, we elect officials who promise to be "tough on crime." We develop fear for our own neighborhoods, and it's all at the expense of nearly half our young men and women--whose lives change forever if they're arrested. It's time to start thinking differently about crime, because what we're doing is not working.
Nearly 2,000 drivers were charged with a DWI during a statewide “Booze It & Lose It” campaign that ran over the Fourth of July, authorities said Tuesday.
The state Department of Transportation and the Governor’s Highway Safety Program said “Operation Firecracker” netted 1,929 DWI arrests from June 27 to July 6.
The top five counties in DWI arrests were:
Wake County, 197 Guilford County, 141 Mecklenburg County, 105 Cumberland County, 88 Robeson County, 86 “We thank our law enforcement partners for protecting our freedoms and keeping us safe by arresting those who make the decision to drink and drive,” said Don Nail, Director of the Governor’s Highway Safety Program.
Local and state law enforcement officers also issued 64,626 traffic and criminal citations; 4,666 safety belt and 849 child passenger safety violations; 18,862 speeding violations; 278 work zone violations and 1,869 drug charges. In addition, they apprehended 1,565 fugitives from justice and recovered 108 stolen vehicles.
Kind of empty statistics. 41 percent, so they were innocent then? Even that would be kind of a moot stat innocent or guilty gets proven after arrest in many cases.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-23-2014).]
Originally posted by Wichita: Is our high incarceration rate due to better policing?
My friend has been an ASE certified mechanic all his life. Employment continued training, the whole nine yards. There is something, many somethings, every new model, every manufacturer. He is a better mechanic 'cause of it. It's not about the policing.
The problem isn't being tough on crime. The problem is that most prisons aren't tough on inmates once they're incarcerated. If incarceration doesn't become a deterrent, what's the point in being "tough on crime" to begin with. I hear too many times, "this ain't nothing but a vacation" and "at least I get to see my guys". Abuse in prison should NEVER be tolerated but prison should NOT be a pleasant experience.
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws."
quote
• A 12-year old girl arrested and handcuffed for eating one French fry on the Washington subway system.
• A cancer-ridden grandmother arrested and criminally charged for refusing to trim her hedges the way officials in Palo Alto, Calif., were trying to force her to.
• A former high-school science whiz kid sent to prison after initially being arrested by FBI agents clad in SWAT gear for failing to affix a federally mandated sticker to his otherwise legal UPS package.
• A 67-year-old grandfather imprisoned because some of the paperwork for his home-based orchid business did not satisfy an international treaty.
If “ignorance of the law is no excuse,” then every American citizen — literally, every single one — is ignorant and in peril, for nobody can know all the laws that govern their behavior.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-23-2014).]
The problem isn't being tough on crime. The problem is that most prisons aren't tough on inmates once they're incarcerated. If incarceration doesn't become a deterrent, what's the point in being "tough on crime" to begin with. I hear too many times, "this ain't nothing but a vacation" and "at least I get to see my guys". Abuse in prison should NEVER be tolerated but prison should NOT be a pleasant experience.
I agree, put them to work.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-24-2014).]
Local politicians love prisons in their districts. Every job represents that many more fundraiser dinner tickets that will have to be sold absorbed by employees.
Is prison? I'm just saying, sitting in a cell working out, reading magazines, getting fed, is not paying a debt to society, and for many it is just another free ride.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-24-2014).]
"41 percent. That's the number of Americans who will be arrested by the time they're 23 years old. It's all part of our "War on Crime," which has given America a higher incarceration rate than North Korea, Russia, Ukraine, or any other country in the world. So what is really the problem?"
Brad
I always take issues with surveys and research that use seriously ****ed-up third world countries to prove a point against a 1st world country.
1 - I doubt North Korea properly reports how many people they have incarcerated. I mean, really... did someone call the DPRK liaison office and say... "Excuse me, how many people do you have in prison?" Anything they're going to give you is huge propaganda. Anything from Russia will probably be propaganda anyway.
2 - These stats probably don't include the North Korean slave labor camps in China
3 - These stats probably don't include the people in North Korea who are simply killed on a first offense.
The problem isn't being tough on crime. The problem is that most prisons aren't tough on inmates once they're incarcerated. If incarceration doesn't become a deterrent, what's the point in being "tough on crime" to begin with. I hear too many times, "this ain't nothing but a vacation" and "at least I get to see my guys". Abuse in prison should NEVER be tolerated but prison should NOT be a pleasant experience.
If that was true than Norway should be a horrible place.
Their prison system is the most progressive in the world, and treats prisoners like people instead of caged animals.
Violent crime > Gun crime > Guns per 100 residents Norway 31.3 Ranked 11th. USA 88.8 Ranked 1st. 3 times more than Norway
Violent crime > Intentional homicide rate Norway 0.68 Ranked 59th. USA 4.7 Ranked 7th. 7 times more than Norway
Violent crime > Murder rate Norway 29 Ranked 76th. USA 12,996 Ranked 9th. 448 times more than Norway
Violent crime > Murders Norway 29 Ranked 76th. USA 12,996 Ranked 9th. 448 times more than Norway
Violent crime > Rapes Norway 938 Ranked 20th. 84,767 Ranked 1st. 90 times more than Norway
quote
Despite the seriousness of their crimes, however, I found that the loss of liberty was all the punishment they suffered. Cells had televisions, computers, integral showers and sanitation. Some prisoners were segregated for various reasons, but as the majority served their time – anything up to the 21-year maximum sentence (Norway has no death penalty or life sentence) – they were offered education, training and skill-building programmes. Instead of wings and landings they lived in small "pod" communities within the prison, limiting the spread of the corrosive criminal prison subculture that dominates traditionally designed prisons. The teacher explained that all prisons in Norway worked on the same principle, which he believed was the reason the country had, at less than 30%, the lowest reoffending figures in Europe and less than half the rate in the UK.
I always take issues with surveys and research that use seriously ****ed-up third world countries to prove a point against a 1st world country.
I know right. Being a 3rd world country you would think things would be worse than us..
quote
1 - I doubt North Korea properly reports how many people they have incarcerated. I mean, really... did someone call the DPRK liaison office and say... "Excuse me, how many people do you have in prison?" Anything they're going to give you is huge propaganda.
Right, but estimates from 'U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea' puts estimates between 600 and 800 per 100,000, making it second to the United States in all but extreme worse case senarios. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ights_in_North_Korea
quote
Anything from Russia will probably be propaganda anyway.
Right.Russia lies about everything... You do realize that they lie as much as the US does right?
quote
2 - These stats probably don't include the North Korean slave labor camps in China
3 - These stats probably don't include the people in North Korea who are simply killed on a first offense.
Just sayin'...
I don't know what they are "skipping", but I like how you went to the "North Korea is still a little worse than us at this" argument.
"Yea, we're bad, but North Korea is really worse."
No, but moreso than slavery. What we're talking about here is revamping our correctional system for moral reasons. Further degrading the value of human life is not moral progress.
quote
Originally posted by 2.5: I'm just saying, sitting in a cell working out, reading magazines, getting fed, is not paying a debt to society, and for many it is just another free ride.
By definition it's not a free ride if it cost them their freedom. I've also never heard or read anything about the 'perks' of being a prisoner. I wonder why people are always trying to escape prison? The way you tell it, people should be trying to break into prison for the perks.
I do agree that it's not 'paying debt to society'. Once the debt has been paid, society shouldn't continue to collect the debt. After prison, the debt paying really just starts. You can't vote. Can't find a job. Can't get loans. Can't own firearms. Family wont trust you. Illegals, even one's that have been to prison, have more rights. Yet people are expected to be rehabilitated when released. It's a system setup for repeat offenders for the benefit of for-profit prisons.
But try talking about the woes of our capitalistic prison system without being accused of being un-American and communist.
[This message has been edited by FlyinFieros (edited 07-24-2014).]
Norway Their prison system is the most progressive in the world, and treats prisoners like people instead of caged animals
Brad
Not all prisoners are the same though. You talkiing minimum or maximum security or something in between? 1st time offenders or 9th time? I'm trying to get your point, we need more lax penalties? We need to rehabilitate more?
http://www.globalpost.com/d...7/norway-open-prison With our culture and the quality of our criminals I dont think the above would work for most /\ Maybe I'm too pessimistic, too cautious, I dont know. The quality of many of our citizens in general and what they are doing now even when not caught and prosecuted, you dont think many many people would want to go to prison if it were like this link? We'd have to limit it like welfare checks.
By definition it's not a free ride if it cost them their freedom. I've also never heard or read anything about the 'perks' of being a prisoner. I wonder why people are always trying to escape prison? The way you tell it, people should be trying to break into prison for the perks.
I do agree that it's not 'paying debt to society'. Once the debt has been paid, society shouldn't continue to collect the debt. After prison, the debt paying really just starts. You can't vote. Can't find a job. Can't get loans. Can't own firearms. Family wont trust you. Illegals, even one's that have been to prison, have more rights. Yet people are expected to be rehabilitated when released. It's a system setup for repeat offenders for the benefit of for-profit prisons.
But try talking about the woes of our capitalistic prison system without being accused of being un-American and communist.
Further degrading the value of human life is not moral progress.
I dont think I'd be against making it non profit. Though I suppose that means raising taxes and more gov control?... I dont think punishing crimes and protecting non criminals is degrading to human life.
If we are concerned about "ruining young lives" maybe we need to pay more attention to age when sentencing? For all I know we already do. But really its life outside of prison, our society culture and parenting that is the problem making these criminals in the first place IMO.
I don't know what they are "skipping", but I like how you went to the "North Korea is still a little worse than us at this" argument.
"Yea, we're bad, but North Korea is really worse."
Brad
You are REALLY trivializing this and brushing it off like it's a poor argument, it is not... North Korea doesn't really have prisons because they can't afford them. They just kill people whenever they do something wrong. Now, I realize that doesn't qualify for the point that this article is trying to make, but you have to realize how it is TOTALLY relevant.
Second... there are very few countries in the world that have a massive influx of poor that come in from the south. I would be curious to know what percentage of the inmates in prison were of Hispanic origin, and how many of them came from Central America. You pretty much have your answer there. Poor people aren't inherently criminal, but being poor can make people feel the need to do things sometimes, and it creates an environment of hostility.
Honestly, I'm simply saying that you need to take a look at every report like this with a grain of salt. It's not like they just compiled this information and "shock, OMG..." look how bad the USA is??? This was likely meant to create a result.
The fact that you're using Norway as an example is also ridiculous. Norway is a totally homologated culture. People seem to think this is racist, but America IS the melting pot of the world... unlike no other country in the world. We have cultures from all over the world... people simply don't all act and think the same way. The people in Norway are truly one culture... so there's far less disagreements, less disparity, less segregation, less exclusion, and less interculture strife.
None of this, you are considering... but if you TRULY want to be pragmatic about this, you have to consider these variables. This "report" is not cut and dry like that.
Their prison system is the most progressive in the world, and treats prisoners like people instead of caged animals.
Brad
You can't extrapolate what a very narrow, relatively homogenious population does to a broad, heterogenious population like the United States, and have any realistic expectation of the same outcome. There are only about 5 million people living in Norway, and about 85% are norwegian. And most of the rest are some scandinavian background. They have a relatively narrow behavior range, upbringing, outlook on life, and societal norms.
All your comment shows is that for that population, there is a subset of their population that needs time away from the rest of the population with intensive social re-training and that is effective for a large percentage of them. Did you really think you could transport that model to the U.S. with its WIDE range of backgrounds and cultural norms of people, and gets as consistent of a response and product? Because you can't. That wouldn't work in the U.S. Unfortunately, unlike norwegian criminals, U.S. criminals have repeatedly demonstrated that they will NOT respond to that kind of treatment. Sorry. Curse reality. I'm mostly norwegian. Apparently we norwegians are awesome. Apparently the world needs more than 5 million plus those of us scattered norwegians. Should I decide to become a criminal, remember that when you put me in jail.
But remember that people from other cultures and backgrounds in the U.S. won't respond to that kind of treatment.
yeah, one of them items which cannot be solved by laws. the ONLY way is an impossible way. Actually judging each case independent of other cases. Its own bubble. The perpetrator. The victim. The Judge(s). possibly a Jury. no written laws, just judging the events, those involved, and creating a punishment fitting the crime(s), the criminal(s) & the victim(s). Of course this is impossible, because people are people, so, we get stuck with hard coded laws, which isnt bad - but - they do not suit all occasions. but, most - so that is good enough.
and, besides, this system of high youngling incarceration is a very good way to keep the "cream at the top". $$$ lets you bypass what would trip up the common folk. This is a very important layer in the class warfare system.
