Originally posted by ray b: ..yet another who spouts the DOGMA .. WE KNOW YOUR DOGMA SAID THAT...
Its clear you have your dogma too.
"Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true." "Incontrovertible [means] not controvertible; not open to question or dispute; indisputable"
like religion the rightwing BELIEVES things with NO FACTS behind them
one central fact is the ghetto loans by banks under CRA rules were small in numbers and low in amounts so a very small % of total loans and amounts loaned
a far larger % of the sub-prime loans were originated by MORTGAGE CORPs that had NO CRA rules and were NOT sold to freddie or fannie that is where the problems were caused by dereg
THOSE ARE THE FACTS YOUR DOGMA IS WRONG RUSH AND OTHER RIGHTWING NUT-CON'S LIED TO YOU NOW THE FACTS ARE IN BUT YOU GUYS STILL ARE SPOUTING DOGMA PROVEN TO BE WRONG
"Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true." "Incontrovertible [means] not controvertible; not open to question or dispute; indisputable"
i WOULD QUALIFY THE ABOVE BY ADDING BELIEVED TO BE TRUE WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE OR DATA OR FACTS
"Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true." "Incontrovertible [means] not controvertible; not open to question or dispute; indisputable"
i WOULD QUALIFY THE ABOVE BY ADDING BELIEVED TO BE TRUE WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE OR DATA OR FACTS
Instead of trying to lay blame, how about offering a solution to the "housing problem."
Obama and company has the ball, do something with it.
You can't "fix" a problem without knowing or "admitting" what the problem is or was. So, the blame game is all they have and is all we will see out of them.
You can't "fix" a problem without knowing or "admitting" what the problem is or was. So, the blame game is all they have and is all we will see out of them.
Itll all "fix" itself soon. They cant keep playing this game forever.
one central fact is the ghetto loans by banks under CRA rules were small in numbers and low in amounts so a very small % of total loans and amounts loaned
a far larger % of the sub-prime loans were originated by MORTGAGE CORPs
I'm not saying that is wrong. But saying its the borrower not paying it back that caused the crash.
I sometimes wonder if there would actually have been little to no inflation if we hadn't invented this loan/repay/ interest/speculate, etc.. system. Maybe we'd still be walking around with coins in our pockets and they would buy a larger amount of goods and services. If people whose choices made them fail would fail, people whose choices made them succeed would succeed. Nothing would be to big to fail. Charity would truely be by choice, people would save up money before buying something. Anyway, its not like that.
Dems figure ways to get out of work, responsibility, or blame. There is a very apparent common core theme here.
Wow really Tony? All dems are just doing their best to keep from having any responsibility or have to work? Every single one of them huh? Thats amazing. I have quite a few very responsible hard working family members, and friends that consider themselves democrats.. Ill be sure to remind them after a hard day at work that they are really nothing more than irresponsible lazy good for nothing losers.
I know im not on topic at all really, and i don't really care. i guess im just getting tired of alot of these topics where you guys insult and berate each other, make asinine comments about people in general (like Tony here)... And talk about crap that in reality you know very little to nothing about and talk about as if your freakin experts because you read a few biased articles on the internet..
Sad... Really really sad..
Maybe im just frustrated because i injured my back at work (slipped a disk and pinched a nerve) and im getting grumpy cause im hurting, and have to take time off of work to recover, but i guess according to some of you, im just being lazy and trying to stop from working But listening to the way you guys talk to each other is.... Frustrating. Anyway, sorry for being a dick about it, and i apologize to Tony as well..
Maybe one day you guys can have a discussion without being total dicks.. I look forward to that day..
[This message has been edited by Jonesy (edited 05-28-2014).]
Banks, CUs, Mortgage companies and all others, wrote loans on a growing housing pool with very little to worry about. High risk loans were bundled with lower risk notes and sold as a package to investors. Whether Freddie and Fannie, the FDIC, or the FTC, all of this activity was begun under a Democratic President, allowed to happen by a Democratic Congress, and attempts to minimize the damage by a Republican President were rebuffed by Democratic lawmakers who said, effectively, "What, me worry?"
yes, I agree it started in the Clinton years. tho - it was a republican congress and senate - those who were actually the ones creating this stuff. But, I can clearly say - yes - Clinton did not veto it. He allowed this to begin.
but - either way - the fun part: NOTHING has been done about it, has it?
Papa Bush was the last president worth a flying fu(k. Clinton & Baby Bush sold us all out. Obama, while not bad, has not impressed either. But, hard to tell thru all the noise.
Originally posted by htexans1: Instead of trying to lay blame, how about offering a solution to the "housing problem."
This is the time for the left to be the hero. They are in power and have been for 6 years. 4 years they had a supermajority and did nothing.
Come up with real substance. The public wants to see results not lies and recriminations.
Other then that its just LIES DOGMA NUTCONS and CORPRATS-- (empty blah blah blah speech from the left...).
Obama and company has the ball, do something with it.
Obama and company have the ball? do something with it? as soon as the ball gets put on the field, Congress just knocks it off the field. are you suggesting Obama and company should circumvent Congress? and more so - are you suggesting additional rules & regulations?
tho - I do kinda think that housing prices are currently more accurate than the inflated values of "the bubble". so, all we need to do is prevent the bubble from inflating again.
but, this still does nothing for the other part of the problem: the "offshoring"
The collapse of the housing industry & the collapse of our financial industry was 100% caused by thre black caucus there is no other culprit only morons & the uninformed believe otherwise. they actually tried to start the subprime loans again last year,, but even the stupidist moronic congressman knew this was a new Fiasco !! first the blacks, then the mexicans, then low income whites got Sub Prime loans they could not pay back I almost got one ... at one time it seem every fourth home was in foreclosure here in central florida Political Correctness is just one of the factors that will destroy America Obumbles is the worst president ever he beat out Jimmy Carter by a giant mud landslide
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 05-29-2014).]
during the last election all the subprime information was hacked & hidden for months but now it is in the open AGAIN
the present finacial down turn was caused "entirely 100% by the Black caucus & thier Sub Prime loans" every bank hated this but they were forced to participate under threat OF Racist ,RACIST !! & THE BLACK CAUCUS MADE SURE THE BANKS PARTICIPATED
Bush & then Cheney fought this until the cries of Racist ,the steady drum beat of Racist stop them.. there were millions of subprime loans made & banks tried to get rid of them any way they could remember the damage Al Sharpton did with his false charges ,, when the truth came out he just walked away & none of the major media would say anything about this dope dealing IRS cheating monster ,same with the black caucus
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 05-29-2014).]
Originally posted by cliffw: The very points you have been wrong about for years. As I have told you for years, the Dumbs wanted everybody to be able to own a home and banks were pressured to give risky loans. Whether in the ghettos or just low income areas. The Fair Credit Act allowed all to take risky loans. You do have the greed part right. The Dumbs allowed the deregulation, had to allow it, so lenders could bundle risky loans with good one to minimize risk. It was the Dumbs who think they knew best.
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Originally posted by ray b: NO as an other poster said on an other board
On another board, ? Who is this "yay who" ? Once I set him straight, then maybe you will believe.
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Originally posted by ray b: ... as an other poster said on an other board
''Why did lenders suddenly shower less-creditworthy borrowers with trillions of dollars of credit? Mian and Sufi demonstrate this was enabled by the securitization of home mortgages by investment banks that did not seek federal guarantees from Fannie and Freddie—so called private-label securities, made possible by financial deregulation and the glut of cash in world markets in the wake of the Asian financial crisis of the late 1990s. That private-label mortgage-backed securities were at the core of the housing meltdown is no longer in doubt'' NOTE THIS PART ''this was enabled by the securitization of home mortgages by investment banks that did not seek federal guarantees from Fannie and Freddie—so called private-label securities, made possible by financial deregulation and the glut of cash in world markets''
What lender in his right mind would risk his money on a loan to a bad risk ? They were pressured to do so, forced to do so. In agreeing to do so, they told the Dumbs that they would need a vehicle to minimize a risk to risky creditors. It WAS NOT the NUT CONS idea to allow securitization through venues other than Fannie Mae/Freddy Mac. A lot of good the Federal Guarantees of Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac do. Those guarantees were not meant to be a bail out/saving of the economy. They were meant for more of the individual miscalculation of ability to pay. Was it the NEO NUT CONS who kept claiming Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac were solvent ? Or was it the DUMBS who blocked George W from auditing Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac ?
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Originally posted by ray b: IT WAS NOT FORCED LOANS BY THE FEDS MOST OF THE DEFAULTS WERE NOT FED REGULATED LOANS OR IN REDLINED AREAS OR TO PEOPLE OF COLOR OR TO UNQUALIFIED PEOPLE THE LOANS WERE TO WHITE SUBURBANITES
It was forced loans which started the ball rolling. Fed regulated loans went out the widow when the Dumbs decided anybody could have a home loan. Red lined area folks, or people of color, or white suburbanites had nothing to do with the "rules" which were put in place by the Dumbs. Just like food stamps ... if the rules allow it, most will "take" it. Just like food stamps, that don't make it right. Now, ... lets go to your link.
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Originally posted by ray b: Why are nearly 10 million people still out of work today? Princeton University professor Atif Mian and University of Chicago Booth School of Business professor Amir Sufi pin the blame squarely on policymakers, in their just-released book, House of Debt, they argue that the Great Recession was the result of a sharp fall-off in consumption due to the unevenly accumulated household debt in the first six years of the 21st century.
So, it says that people are out of work because of unevenly accumulated debt. Policy makers allowed that, ? Do you propose a law which makes it illegal to go into debt ? What is "unevenly accumulated household debt" ? Your link says this ... which does not square with any reason why the first six years of this 21st are so special ...
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Originally posted by ray b: Unfortunately, the two authors don’t provide answers for why so many households took on so much debt ...
No ray b ... the reason people are out of work, despite what these Keynesian economists say ...
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Originally posted by ray b: In The General Theory of Employment, Interests, and Money, University of Cambridge economist John Maynard Keynes argued in 1936 that the distribution of income mattered for the stability of the macroeconomy.
... is that Keynesian economics dose not work. There was a study which proved that. It is called "history". It does not produce jobs. That is the reason ten million more than ten million are out of work, and why the work participation rate is at an historic low. Your linked "study" is so ridiculous I could go on, and will.
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Originally posted by ray b: Increased spending, be it from consumers, government, greater exports, or investment, will multiply as it works its way through the economy. If additional income goes into the hands of those with a high marginal propensity to consume then the multiplier for consumption demand will be relatively larger. But if additional income goes into the hands of those with a lower marginal propensity to consume then the multiplier on consumption demand will be relatively weaker.
How does a dollar multiply as it goes through the economy ? It doesn't. What they mean is that more people touch it if it is continually in circulation/motion. Which is good for the economy, money moving. However, how does money moving make a person rich ? One needs to have money to invest money, not pass it along. Money moves in other ways besides buying groceries or a stereo or a new car. More absurd is the Keynesian argument they offer which they claim would have saved the economy, .
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Originally posted by ray b: Now, Mian and Sufi provide a definite “yes” to the question of whether we could have prevented the Great Recession—and the conclusion isn’t pretty. They argue that policymakers could have seriously mitigated the damage, pointing out that debt forgiveness would have been much more effective that the policies implemented because it would have targeted households with the largest marginal propensity to consume.
Do you have a hundred dollars I can borrow ray b ? Who is it for the government to forgive private debt ? If the government would forgive tax debt, the economy would soar.
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your linky Thus the Keynes-Friedman debate was theoretical, not grounded in empirical reality.
Probably Ronald Reagan's fault. Just wait until the college loan bubble bursts, its going to be 2008 all over again.
I do remember large numbers of S&L's going bankrupt under raygun's dereg's rules
I don't think college loans were resold or packaged with BS bets on default rates like mortgages were that created a domino effect far bigger then the basic loan crisis and the feds not BS bets or banks back the college loans so no worry about teabaggers trashing the government with their nuttier ideals not so much the college kids loans
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 05-30-2014).]
during the last election all the subprime information was hacked & hidden for months but now it is in the open AGAIN
the present finacial down turn was caused "entirely 100% by the Black caucus & thier Sub Prime loans" every bank hated this but they were forced to participate under threat OF Racist ,RACIST !! & THE BLACK CAUCUS MADE SURE THE BANKS PARTICIPATED
Bush & then Cheney fought this until the cries of Racist ,the steady drum beat of Racist stop them.. there were millions of subprime loans made & banks tried to get rid of them any way they could remember the damage Al Sharpton did with his false charges ,, when the truth came out he just walked away & none of the major media would say anything about this dope dealing IRS cheating monster ,same with the black caucus
UNTRUE WRONG RACIST bs AND A TRUE NUT-CON POST a quad-fecta
Originally posted by cliffw: What lender in his right mind would risk his money on a loan to a bad risk ? They were pressured to do so, forced to do so. In agreeing to do so, they told the Dumbs that they would need a vehicle to minimize a risk to risky creditors. It WAS NOT the NUT CONS idea to allow securitization through venues other than Fannie Mae/Freddy Mac. A lot of good the Federal Guarantees of Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac do. Those guarantees were not meant to be a bail out/saving of the economy. They were meant for more of the individual miscalculation of ability to pay. Was it the NEO NUT CONS who kept claiming Fanny Mae/Freddy Mac were solvent ? Or was it the DUMBS who blocked George W from auditing Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac ? Do you have a hundred dollars I can borrow ray b ? Who is it for the government to forgive private debt ? If the government would forgive tax debt, the economy would soar. [QUOTE]your linky Thus the Keynes-Friedman debate was theoretical, not grounded in empirical reality.
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you missed the point the banks/S&L/LOAN CORPs did not loan ''THEIR MONEY'' THEY USED OTHER PEOPLES MONEY from deposits for banks/S&L's or investors money for the loan CORPs AND QUICKLY RESOLD [NOT TO FREEDIE OR FANNIE] THE PACKAGED LOANS so got the money back to reloan in an ever increasing cycle of loan sell the loan repeat
all that was because of dereg not new rules by the feds but less rules = wildwest no standards from your nut-con's dereg dogmas
blaming ghetto's is GOP SPIN LIE BS THE OLD WHITE GUYS IN THE GOP ARE TO BLAME
Do you have a hundred dollars I can borrow ray b ? Who is it for the government to forgive private debt ? If the government would forgive tax debt, the economy would soar.
How does a dollar multiply as it goes through the economy ? It doesn't. What they mean is that more people touch it if it is continually in circulation/motion. Which is good for the economy, money moving. However, how does money moving make a person rich ? One needs to have money to invest money, not pass it along. Money moves in other ways besides buying groceries or a stereo or a new car. More absurd is the Keynesian argument they offer which they claim would have saved the economy, .
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i HAVE THOUSANDS BUT I DO NOT LOAN MONEY
#2 money passing thru an economy makes jobs and wealth that is basic theory [ie a fact] until THE RICH GUY GETS HIS GRUBBY HANDS ON IT then our money disappears into a bank, the stock market, bonds, or goes offshore [the worse case for the rest of us] OFF SHORE MONEY IS GONE FROM OUR SYSTEM and no longer makes jobs here
what totally silly is the anti - KEYNESIAN IDEAS YOU MIS-STATE
I do remember large numbers of S&L's going bankrupt under raygun's dereg's rules
Actually it was because of the avenues available for the S&L's to invest under the rules of Glass-Steagal. THE DEMOCRATS who as you know controlled both houses and Jimmy took away the second mortgage interest right off along with raw property incentives and credit card interest right off. This made NIOBODY want to buy land, houses as investments, second homes, vacation houses and rentals etc. and under the investment rules THAT IS WHAT THE BANKS HELD hence a near collapse of the S&L's. Credit debit sheets backwards almost overnight.
the present financial crisis was caused by the black caucus sub prime loans,,100% !! nothing else,, all the financial institutions were threatened with RACISM if they did not participate,, then the financials did what ever they could to make money,no one could say a word againt the black caucus 'Political Correctness ',, I worked with NOVO 1 selling this crap,previously I had worked for empire financial group & was very aware of what was going on ,, every financial GURU was against this ,but were shut down with cries of ???? you got it !! BUSH & CHENEY fought the sub prime but were shut up with cries of Racist the rat nest started with the black caucus sub prime loans to those who could not pay there loans back,the banks hated this but they were allowed to bundle loans & sell them senator DODD & super queer Barney Frank did someof the heavy lifting to screw the tax payers.. YUP other peoples money was just laying arround
Yeah, my generalization was unwarranted, rude, and harsh. I am sick of both sides of the table. I do relate more towards the republican side, but even full blown republican is just whacky. Your response should have been foreseen. Thanks for keeping it civil, and sorry that I pushed your button. I will fault again, but I do care not to.
money passing thru an economy makes jobs and wealth that is basic theory [ie a fact]
I creates jobs for a time, until demand wears off. I would say money "passing thru" is more of an effect rather than a cause if one is talking about a healthy economy or how to set one up,, it depends where the money comes from and where it goes.
But listening to the way you guys talk to each other is.... Frustrating. Anyway, sorry for being a dick about it, and i apologize to Tony as well.. 
? Do you propose a law which makes it illegal to go into debt ? What is "unevenly accumulated household debt" ? Your link says this ... which does not square with any reason why the first six years of this 21st are so special ...
