377 shots fired at a car with two unarmed men in it. One man was the one the police were after. The other was not but he was shot dead anyway. Two officers were shot by their fellow officers. This was within 15 ft. of an occupied townhouse complex with several rounds striking the building and the cars belonging to the occupants.
This is how all robbers and rapist should be dealt with
Bullsh*t. If all 277 rounds had hit the intended target - it would have merely been ridiculous overkill and you might have had a point. Spraying rounds that indiscriminately is never how anything should be dealt with.
This is how all robbers and rapist should be dealt with
Four people were shot, two were killed. Only one committed a crime.
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CBS4 News has learned a total of 23 officers fired a total of at least 377 rounds.
Bullets were sprayed everywhere. They hit the Volvo, other cars in the lot, fence posts and neighboring businesses. They blasted holes in a townhouse where a 12-year-old dove to the ground for cover and a four month old slept in his crib.
cop bullets only hit 10% the time, these are not trained soldiers born on the battle field, they are paranoid doughnut eating cops.
300 rounds is low
The guy in the car with him was a criminal, it's not like he was a little child, the guy knew who he was involved with, there are 5 billion people on this planet, there will be 10 billion by 2050, 2 less thugs on the street.
2 less thugs that won't be robbing and raping
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Originally posted by Formula88:
Bullsh*t. If all 277 rounds had hit the intended target - it would have merely been ridiculous overkill and you might have had a point. Spraying rounds that indiscriminately is never how anything should be dealt with.
[This message has been edited by nickbrown (edited 05-11-2014).]
cop bullets only hit 10% the time, these are not trained soldiers born on the battle field, they are paranoid doughnut eating cops.
That's an accurate assessment, but not an excuse.
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Originally posted by nickbrown: The guy in the car with him was a criminal, it's not like he was a little child, the guy knew who he was involved with, there are 5 billion people on this planet, there will be 10 billion by 2050, 2 less thugs on the street.
Really? What crime did he commit?
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But what police didn’t realize before they started shooting at the Volvo is there was a second man in the car – Corsini Valdes – who had committed no crime.
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Originally posted by nickbrown: 2 less thugs that won't be robbing and raping
Guilt by association, I guess? Hey, why have laws at all - just let police decide who lives and dies right then and there. That's the reality, if not the official policy. And you're ok with that. There's always collaborators who enable the corrupt. Let me guess, you once of those who thinks "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" right?
Crazy sh*t. Do these people receive training at some point or does the interview go: "Do you know how to shoot a gun?" - "Yes" - "Great, you're hired".
That's almost four times as many bullets in one incident as German police fires IN A YEAR.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-11-2014).]
Originally posted by yellowstone: snip... German police...snip
While I personally find fault with the video above, this is repetitive nonsense regarding US vs. EU. Would you apply the same logic if your wife cheated on you, vs. your neighbors wife remaining faithful? Honest question, no personal harm intended.....
While I personally find fault with the video above, this is repetitive nonsense regarding US vs. EU. Would you apply the same logic if your wife cheated on you, vs. your neighbors wife remaining faithful? Honest question, no personal harm intended.....
I'm sure German wives cheat far less than US wives. It's the training.
While I personally find fault with the video above, this is repetitive nonsense regarding US vs. EU.
The reason I use examples from Germany is that I follow the news from there and therefore know things that happen vs. news from Taiwan, Mongolia, Chile or Norway.
I think that the fact the the police force of a county of 82 million people can keep law and order with 85 bullets fired (49 warning shots, 36 shots on suspects. 15 persons were injured, 6 were killed) whereas the police force of another country with about 2.5 times as many people deems it necessary to expend 311 bullets in a single encounter raises serious and valid questions. What do you think?
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-11-2014).]
The reason I use examples from Germany is that I follow the news from there and therefore know things that happen vs. news from Taiwan, Mongolia, Chile or Norway.
I think that the fact the the police force of a county of 82 million people can keep law and order with 85 bullets fired (49 warning shots, 36 shots on suspects. 15 persons were injured, 6 were killed) whereas the police force of another country with about 2.5 times as many people deems it necessary to expend 311 bullets in a single encounter raises serious and valid questions. What do you think?
I think the comments about cops should only have guns, because of training, and maturity isn't looking so hot. Many American hunters can put down a animal with only one shot, often dangerous ones.
I think the comments about cops should only have guns, because of training, and maturity isn't looking so hot. Many American hunters can put down a animal with only one shot, often dangerous ones.
And your point in regards to this threads topic is...?
The reason I use examples from Germany is that I follow the news from there and therefore know things that happen vs. news from Taiwan, Mongolia, Chile or Norway.
Snip.....What do you think?
I think you are comparing the US to Germany and ignoring the fact that individuals made decisions for which they will be held accountable for. (The police, whom I personally respect but avoid at all possible). If you have the time or inclination, research the actions of the alleged criminals and compare that to Germany. Perhaps it's not a systematic problem with our police state. Could it be a problem with the citizens? If so, why.
I think you are comparing the US to Germany and ignoring the fact that individuals made decisions for which they will be held accountable for.
That's probably true for all individuals who make bad decisions that will get the police to go after them. Still doesn't answer the question why US police quite often seems to go for the "hail of bullets" approach when apprehending an alleged criminal. Especially if it puts bystanders at risk.
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Originally posted by WBailey1041:Perhaps it's not a systematic problem with our police state. Could it be a problem with the citizens? If so, why.
I don't see it. Maybe you should explain your hypothesis?
Originally posted by yellowstone: 49 warning shots
I do not believe they do that here as much as I believe it to be a useful tool. In Florida many people that were in fear of their life and fired a "warning shot" are in jail for many years for illegal discharge of a dangerous weapon(or some charge like that). They would of been in the clear if they could have convinced a jury that they missed.
That's probably true for all individuals who make bad decisions that will get the police to go after them. Still doesn't answer the question why US police quite often seems to go for the "hail of bullets" approach when apprehending an alleged criminal. Especially if it puts bystanders at risk.
The quick answer is : The police will more often than not get away with it .
You see they will be applauded and held as overworked ,underpaid ,non respected Heroes.. People will come out of the woodwork and bend over backwards to make any excuses for them.
Originally posted by yellowstone: And your point in regards to this threads topic is...?
Its as on target as, the country with 82 million people.
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Still doesn't answer the question why US police quite often seems to go for the "hail of bullets" approach when apprehending an alleged criminal. Especially if it puts bystanders at risk.
Many small towns in the US, do not go with the "hail of bullets" approach. Most of these towns are conservative. Most of the "hail of bullets" happens in metros, which tend to be liberal. hmmm Its a difference in culture.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 05-12-2014).]
Many small towns in the US, do not go with the "hail of bullets" approach. Most of these towns are conservative. Most of the "hail of bullets" happens in metros, which tend to be liberal. hmmm Its a difference in culture.
Many small towns in the US, do not go with the "hail of bullets" approach. Most of these towns are conservative. Most of the "hail of bullets" happens in metros, which tend to be liberal. hmmm Its a difference in culture.
So the police officers in US metro areas are liberals and that's the reason why they fire indiscriminately?
Do you have more solid evidence for that hypothesis? Because small towns are usually more conservative and cities more liberal all over the world. So that pattern would have to hold true everywhere but I think it doesn't.
So the police officers in US metro areas are liberals and that's the reason why they fire indiscriminately?
Do you have more solid evidence for that hypothesis? Because small towns are usually more conservative and cities more liberal all over the world. So that pattern would have to hold true everywhere but I think it doesn't.
Didn't say the police officers were liberal. I said the metros were. Prevailing culture. Lets assume all cops were conservative, and the variable is the perps they are dealing with are liberal in the metros and conservative in the small towns, why are they more apt to go postal on the liberals? Might it be the way that metro perps interact with the police? Maybe in other countries the police are less likely to be beaten, stabbed, and or shot. Maybe, just maybe it does have something to do with the attitude of the people in a particular area. As for everywhere else in the world, wouldn't you say a small town in Afghanistan might have a slightly different culture, as would France on a whole.
The whole point is it boils down to culture. Los Angles has a entirely different culture than backwoods Arkansas. Almost as different as Afghanistan is to France.
The former Soviet Union , North Korea, and China seem probable to use the hail of bullet approach, what do they have in common with the US metros? Maybe, authoritarian socialist culture?
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 05-12-2014).]
It's a power trip, plain and simple. Crooked cops know they can get away with murder, literally, so they do it. I read an article from several years ago where multiple, supposedly upstanding, cops said they were afraid to speak out against the corruption that goes all the way to the top of the command structure because of the very real threat of retaliation that could leave them jobless at best.
You keep comparing Germany police to American police, but i believe there is a very real policy difference when it comes to hiring practices. Here in the states, it's common practice for police departments to reject candidate applications for candidates that have an above average IQ. My guess is that Germany police departments aren't that way and, in fact, looks for smart individuals.
Originally posted by dennis_6:Might it be the way that metro perps interact with the police?
It's still not professional or even defensible IMO to shoot hundreds of bullets in a crowded neighborhood in Miami (or anywhere). They were lucky they only shot other cops in the process...
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Originally posted by dennis_6:
The former Soviet Union , North Korea, and China seem probable to use the hail of bullet approach, what do they have in common with the US metros? Maybe, authoritarian socialist culture?
OK. I see we are living in two very different universes...
For all intents and purposes, Germany is much more socialist (social-democrat, actually) than anywhere in the US (town or country). Following your logic, German police would have to use more bullets to keep all the liberals in check, not much less.
Personally, I don't find your hypothesis convincing.
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-12-2014).]
OK. I see we are living in two very different universes...
For all intents and purposes, Germany is much more socialist (social-democrat, actually) than anywhere in the US (town or country). Following your logic, German police would have to use more bullets to keep all the liberals in check, not much less.
Personally, I don't find your hypothesis convincing.
Might there be a difference in German liberalism and American liberalism? If Socialism reduced police shootings, it seems the Soviet Union would have used the least ammo, I mean they went all the way to communism, so that should mean the cops didn't even need guns there. Ditto North Korea...
I don't think it really has anything to do with liberalism or socialism, just as it has nothing to do with gun ownership. As rural areas have high gun ownership, yet very few hail of bullet situations. It has everything to do with culture, How the population in a region views the police, how the police view the population.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 05-12-2014).]
I think the biggest difference isn't capitalist or socialist based governments. It's stability. Germany's government is much more stable right now. The US is in transition - moving away from the Constitutional Republic model and towards a more collective / socialist one. That, along with the economic realities everyone is facing, creates unrest among the people and aggravates the instability within government and law enforcement.
A stable socialist government is a safer place to be than an unstable Republic. We have federal government expanding it's reach, and law enforcement at all levels are having a blind eye turned to incompetence, corruption, or abuse of power. I'm not trying to Godwin the thread when I suggest it's very similar to the German upheaval that lead to Hitler's rise to power.
While an interesting hypothesis, I don't agree with it because I don't think that your "transition" (if it exists and I don't think so) will have such an effect on the (mis-)behavior of individual officers.
I think the following may rather be some of the reasons for that behavior:
Poor personnel selection (selecting too many of the wrong people to begin with)
Poor training (not sufficient emphasis on de-escalation)
Impunity or slaps on the wrist for officers that behave badly
Scared officers due to the likelihood of being confronted with armed opponents (safer to shoot first and ask questions later)
[This message has been edited by yellowstone (edited 05-13-2014).]
Didn't say the police officers were liberal. I said the metros were. Prevailing culture. Lets assume all cops were conservative, and the variable is the perps they are dealing with are liberal in the metros and conservative in the small towns, why are they more apt to go postal on the liberals? Might it be the way that metro perps interact with the police? Maybe in other countries the police are less likely to be beaten, stabbed, and or shot. Maybe, just maybe it does have something to do with the attitude of the people in a particular area. As for everywhere else in the world, wouldn't you say a small town in Afghanistan might have a slightly different culture, as would France on a whole.
The whole point is it boils down to culture. Los Angles has a entirely different culture than backwoods Arkansas. Almost as different as Afghanistan is to France.
The former Soviet Union , North Korea, and China seem probable to use the hail of bullet approach, what do they have in common with the US metros? Maybe, authoritarian socialist culture?
Different Culture and a slightly different political persuasion are very different. Most American people are independents and don't even side with one party.
