Car 84 Fiero 2M4. Was presented with a repair job where both headlights would not go up . Headlight switch tested ok, both motors will not energize. Feel that it may be the isolation relay. Does anyone offer replacements? Will do the test on the iso relay on Saturday but suspect that relay is bad. Tail light fuse blowing when headlight motors are manually put in middle position. Strange symptoms!!
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Heddman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
same as the Pontiac trans ams used, as well as most any rear wiper system. never had an issue getting one. napa wont list the isolation relay for the fiero, but do list for the trans am. interchange the GM 10022620 over at napa you get the AR6433. which gm used for years on hidden headlamps and rear wipers.
what about the <86 vettes? 6 pin isolation relay on those as well. those are available every where
customers 86 vette here. looks no different then the fiero one. could pull It up on ondemand5 and check the pinout. but even then get a vette plug. knowing GM it wont be much different. local napa here has those in stock. both the 6 pin isolation 4 pin motor.
Thanks folks for presenting the many options. On 30+ yr old cars the interchange approach seems to be the best idea to replace with something new . Raptor seems to have done the research. If that relay is a direct fit that looks like the best way. Fierofool, I will check out your pm.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Heddman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Click for image ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Heddman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 07-17-2015).]
the standard ignition relay IS the interchange for the <86 down corvette isolation relay. that's why I mentioned that, doesn't lock you into seeking the standard ignition part as standard ignition is getting harder and harder to find, heard they are gone or going out
they may or may not be direct fit. thats why i mentioned the pigtail, the orientaion tab may be flipped. they have an L shape to the pig tail orientation. compare pin out of the fireo to the corvette and see. worse case you splice in a pigtail, match the pinout good to go. we all know corvette parts will always be around.
i have mitchell ondemand, ondemand5 and alldata if any one needs to know the pinout of the vette
its unusal GM ever ties headlamp to tail lamp in any car. they did in the fiero to run that isolation relay, and honestly i have never had to check how the vette runs it. it is simple signal in, (tail lamps) to relay control for polaity to headlamp motor relay . makes no difference if the vette uses tail lamps or parking lamps, its just a simple relay, fieros just need the relay to flip the polarity and dump the control after, may or may not be simple to some, having been a an auto tech for many years, as well as an automation tech i find it simple. my vmc uses 4 sets of 16 bank relays that turn on, flip, isolate and as far as shut down its self and disconnect ac power, so i can be not at home as it works and shuts down. wiring items such as that, programming them makes cars seem too easy to me at times.
personally i would much rather have a new relay than a 30 year old used one. has to be something that makes, made the fiero go thru them faster and be much more unreliable than the ones used in the vettes. for some reason, GM used a totally different relay in the vette, while pontiac used the same ill fated ones from the fiero in the firebirds. they had as many issues as the fieros. i KNOW back when i was an auto tech, 30 plus years in 87 when the fireo got its module control, like the firebirds we were all excited because even then we were chasing isolation relay issues in the 84-86 fieros, and firebirds. back then we did use the vette parts as a solid fix i just cant remember if we swapped the pigtails as well. we were too busy rewiring almost every ford vehicle type on the market for burnt ignition switch harnesses, burnt cruise control pigtails. the fiero was what we called a gravy job. besides the dealers we were the only shops with in 75 miles that would work on fieros. having worked on so many, test driven them, in 88 i bought an 87. the modding began, any one around from back then will recall how many after market items, kits, performance parts were available it was heaven.
standard ry130
NAPA Echlin ar690 ar690sb ec1618 I believe is the pigtail
advance r3230
ac delco 15-2386 GM 10039961
headlamp relays are
AC Delco D1782 GM #10031018
NAPA Echlin ar220
[This message has been edited by raptor_vrscx (edited 07-18-2015).]
Dennis, if that thing works, post back here. LOTS of inquiring minds want to know.
If you look at the pinout diagram on the relay in the picture link in my post; if I am reading it correctly the relay looks very similar if not identical to what is shown in the factory repair manual.. The Standard Motor Part sells for around $18 at Rock Auto which incidentally shows for 84-86 Fieros in the info cross reference. Raptor has kindly provided the other mfr P/N's. Might have to buy and test one to confirm that it works but at this point my impression is that it will work..
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Heddman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Looks like if the internals are the same, the pigtail may need to be spliced in. Many years ago, I was searching through the GM Dealer Parts Locator for the isolation relays and just happened to find the supposed 2 remaining in GM inventory. They just happened to be at Nash Chevrolet, about 15 miles from me. $56 bucks each. I bought 1.
It puzzles me why they would make two identical relays internally, but with different pigtail connectors. Right now, the only vehicle I have that uses the relays has Kris Munson's flushmounts, so I have nothing to test on. I'll just sit back and wait for the response of others.
Raptor, have you actually used one of these suggested relays and had it operate properly?
yes as I stated but I cant remember if the pigtail was changed, I think the clock position, or the orientation tab the L shape is flipped which then isn't pin 1 on pigtail to pin 1 on relay.
it was one of the first fixes we did way back im talking 86 or so, after the 87 came out, we began buying the harness and swapping to the module. but only on those with repeat failures of the isolation relay. some cars they worked lasted while others had frequent failures. had nothing to do with night time frequency of use.
I cant swear to it but I believe you will find pin out same but orientation of the pigtail L isn't. essentially moving the lock to the other side, swapping pins.
[This message has been edited by raptor_vrscx (edited 07-20-2015).]
looking at ondemand5 it appears the NC NO contacts and diode are reversed. in that if you plugged it in without the spliced pigtail, lights would be up when off, down when on.
as stated before I did this years ago, was idk 26 then im mid 50's now. but rather than state its direct I also said I believe pigtail was used, spliced in, offering the suggestion merely as a way to repair what aren't parts to repair. an isolation relay is an isolation relay. the diagrams I have seen show the pinout and the orientation as well as lock I believe they are flipped.
I called my uncle and cuz who owns that shop, we had a notebook, where we logged each repair of this sort. it shows corvette relay and pigtail used. that this repair was suggested by a local GM facility back then, of course you will have to then ensure the internals on the relay match the intended circuit on the car. basically ensure its wired in the manner the vette is.
[This message has been edited by raptor_vrscx (edited 07-20-2015).]
looking at ondemand5 it appears the NC NO contacts and diode are reversed. in that if you plugged it in without the spliced pigtail, lights would be up when off, down when on.
That might be due to the possibility that the motors were mounted on the opposite sides of the headlight mechanism in the other cars, requiring them to rotate in the opposite direction? If the pigtail terminal end is the same as the Fiero, there could possibly be two other solutions to the up and down problem. One would be to cut and swap the two wires from the limiter switch, or if the motor is being rebuilt, rotate the windings in the motor by 180 degrees. I'm going to see if I can find a view of the bottom and compare.
Edited: found an image and they appear the same. NAPA lists the Echlin AR6433 as a motor relay.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 07-20-2015).]
I just corresponded with a Fiero owner who said that he used the Standard Motor Parts RY-130 relay and it plugs right in replaced the iso relay and worked perfectly. Direct fit part or one that plugs in and works the same. The equivalent replays in the cross reference should also work.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I'm still skeptical of this being the correct replacement relay. For the time being, I have a small casche of used isolator relays. I'll just wait on someone to purchase and evaluate the RY-130 when used as an idolator relay.
Standard Motor Parts describes the relay as follows. The bold and underscore are mine.
Standard Ignition Fog Light Relay/Headlight Relay/Headlight Motor Relay/Headlight Actuator Relay RY-130
See more product details
Product Description Standard RY-130 Multi Purpose Relay
Product Specifications:
Connector Gender Male Contents Relay Continuous Duty No Functions Relay Mounting Bracket(s) Included Yes Terminal Gender Male Terminal Quantity 6 Terminal Type Blade Voltage 12 Warranty 3 years/36 000 mile
I'm still skeptical of this being the correct replacement relay. For the time being, I have a small casche of used isolator relays. I'll just wait on someone to purchase and evaluate the RY-130 when used as an idolator relay.
Standard Motor Parts describes the relay as follows. The bold and underscore are mine.
Standard Ignition Fog Light Relay/Headlight Relay/Headlight Motor Relay/Headlight Actuator Relay RY-130
See more product details
Product Description Standard RY-130 Multi Purpose Relay
Product Specifications:
Connector Gender Male Contents Relay Continuous Duty No Functions Relay Mounting Bracket(s) Included Yes Terminal Gender Male Terminal Quantity 6 Terminal Type Blade Voltage 12 Warranty 3 years/36 000 mile
there is nothing continuous duty about the headlight system. that's why the isolator is there besides swapping the polarity, once the motors hit end of travel, there is no current being used by the motor to hold them up or down. the circuit is broken by the wiper arm in the motor switch, same as wiper motors. the mechanical arm goes just over center and locks the lights up, the control circuit to open the lights is broken, the relays open. the motors would burn up if they remained on.
in the schematic of the head light system, you will notice there are wiper arms with in the motor. the motors are 3 wire. one is used as a control back to the relay. more or less a cheap old style position sensor. I may not be explaining it correctly, but if you was to turn on the lights, try cranking them down by hand you wont feel any resistance at first, the lights stay on, as you crank them down. the moment you break the wiper in the motor, the relay will be turned back on and the motor will lift the light back up.
the normal head lamp motor relay I believe is 4 terminal, isolator 6. the 6 is because the isolator switches the polarity the pos and neg of the power being sent to the motor relay. 2 NO and 2 NC contacts, there is 4 and the then the control makes 6.
id have to look to be certain but the wiper switch will be opening either the isolator, motor or even both relays. if I am not mistaken, the headlamp switch has 2 control signals to the isolator relay, I believe one is used to bypass the wiper switch in the motors to close the circuit, to lower the lights.
I am certain you will find if you amp probe the motors, once up the power is removed, once down power is removed.
the wiper switch latches the relays and opens them .
the motor relay uses whatever polarity is sent to it, closes and powers the 2 wires to the brushes. for the light to be able to run cc and ccw the polarity needs to be switched, its done through the isolator relay. the load of the motors on that relay are removed by the wiper arm switch in the motor, making the continuous duty a mute point. its the same way a wiper motor parks the wipers are the lower part of the windshield.
[This message has been edited by raptor_vrscx (edited 07-25-2015).]
What I am wondering is if this is such a common base/housing/pin (I'm not sure if those are the right words) automotive relay I should be able to have some made because all the parts to put them together should be available.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
Anyone have one or more that are not worth using? I can look to see if I can have them made. I need some samples. They can be bad as long as they are not cut open etc.
------------------ Rodney Dickman
Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page: All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories 7604 Treeview Drive Caledonia, WI 53108 Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575
